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VanitasVanitatum
Guest
I want to know which text would be suitable for a project I’m working on.
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Is Jerome's Vulgate more accurate than the Clementine Vulgate?
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deMontfort
Guest
What do you mean by “Latin Vulgate”? Because the Clementine IS one of the Latin Vulgates. Do you mean Jerome’s Vulgate? Or maybe the Nova Vulgata?
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BartholomewB
Guest
When you say “more accurate,” I suppose you mean a more accurate translation.
The history of Bible translation is driven by a number of factors, one of them being the discovery of Hebrew and Greek manuscripts from an earlier date or that, for one reason or another, are considered to be better in some way than the others. Consequently, on the whole you would expect more recent translations to be an improvement on earlier ones, and that includes translations into Latin. The text of the Vulgate on the Holy See website is altered from time to time, evidently to keep up to date with new developments in Biblical scholarship.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html
The history of Bible translation is driven by a number of factors, one of them being the discovery of Hebrew and Greek manuscripts from an earlier date or that, for one reason or another, are considered to be better in some way than the others. Consequently, on the whole you would expect more recent translations to be an improvement on earlier ones, and that includes translations into Latin. The text of the Vulgate on the Holy See website is altered from time to time, evidently to keep up to date with new developments in Biblical scholarship.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/bible/nova_vulgata/documents/nova-vulgata_index_lt.html
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CRM_Brother
Guest
Sigh.
This question is really complicated. I am assuming that the “Latin vulgate” you are referring to is Jerome’s vulgate.
At the Council of Rome in 382, Pope Damasus I and the council fathers finalized the list of the Western Canon. This is known as the Damasine List. The council fathers knew exactly which books were to be included, despite the actual text of the canon which described them being somewhat vague. The council fathers later clarified the vague aspects of the council canon. Pope Damasus had already commissioned Jerome to translate the Gospels and the Psalms. After the Council, he extended the commission to cover the entire Bible. Unfortunately, Damasus died almost immediately after the commission and a political opponent of Jerome was elected Pope.
Jerome fled Rome to Jerusalem with the original Damasine list, intent on finishing his translation. As he continued the translation, he found that he didn’t know which specific books were to be included, so he simply translated whatever part of the Hebrew scriptures and Greek Septuagint he could find for the Old Testament and was going to let the Pope format it to confirm with the Damasine list. This actually had the Jerome Vulgate include two books which were not in canon and accidentally added portions of certain books to the end of the previous book, as both books were contained on the same scroll. After Jerome’s death, instead of the vulgate being edited by the Pope, as was his original plan, Jerome’s fellow monks distributed his work directly. As such, there were errors.
The Clementine Vulgate when it back and formatted the Jerome Vulgate down to the Damasibe list. It also took out all of the commentary which had accidentally been added to the text over the years. A few fragments were missed and this is what is found in our modern vernacular bibles in brackets. The two books which were left over from Jerome’s vulgate but not on the Damasine list were added as an appendix, as they were pious but not public revelation. The editing done in the Clenentine Vulgate was scholarly and cross checked against both the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek Septuagint.
As it stands today, I would say that the Clemintine Vulgate is more accurate. If your project is historical, however, and dealing with the middle ages, I would try to find a copy of the Jerome vulgate from that time period because the commentary which had been included over the years, the Prayer of Menasseh and 3 Esdras would have been thought to also have been Public Revelation by many up until the Council of Trent when the Jerome Vulgate inaccuracies were officially addressed again.
God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM
This question is really complicated. I am assuming that the “Latin vulgate” you are referring to is Jerome’s vulgate.
At the Council of Rome in 382, Pope Damasus I and the council fathers finalized the list of the Western Canon. This is known as the Damasine List. The council fathers knew exactly which books were to be included, despite the actual text of the canon which described them being somewhat vague. The council fathers later clarified the vague aspects of the council canon. Pope Damasus had already commissioned Jerome to translate the Gospels and the Psalms. After the Council, he extended the commission to cover the entire Bible. Unfortunately, Damasus died almost immediately after the commission and a political opponent of Jerome was elected Pope.
Jerome fled Rome to Jerusalem with the original Damasine list, intent on finishing his translation. As he continued the translation, he found that he didn’t know which specific books were to be included, so he simply translated whatever part of the Hebrew scriptures and Greek Septuagint he could find for the Old Testament and was going to let the Pope format it to confirm with the Damasine list. This actually had the Jerome Vulgate include two books which were not in canon and accidentally added portions of certain books to the end of the previous book, as both books were contained on the same scroll. After Jerome’s death, instead of the vulgate being edited by the Pope, as was his original plan, Jerome’s fellow monks distributed his work directly. As such, there were errors.
The Clementine Vulgate when it back and formatted the Jerome Vulgate down to the Damasibe list. It also took out all of the commentary which had accidentally been added to the text over the years. A few fragments were missed and this is what is found in our modern vernacular bibles in brackets. The two books which were left over from Jerome’s vulgate but not on the Damasine list were added as an appendix, as they were pious but not public revelation. The editing done in the Clenentine Vulgate was scholarly and cross checked against both the Hebrew scriptures and the Greek Septuagint.
As it stands today, I would say that the Clemintine Vulgate is more accurate. If your project is historical, however, and dealing with the middle ages, I would try to find a copy of the Jerome vulgate from that time period because the commentary which had been included over the years, the Prayer of Menasseh and 3 Esdras would have been thought to also have been Public Revelation by many up until the Council of Trent when the Jerome Vulgate inaccuracies were officially addressed again.
God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM
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BartholomewB
Guest
Thank you, @CRM_Brother! Your post is densely packed with historical information which is wholly new to me. For example, I knew nothing about Pope Siricius until now. I didn’t even know the name of Damasus’ successor until I looked at a list. Is there anywhere online where we could read more about his conflict with Jerome? Thanks.
Crusader13
New member
Dr. Taylor Marshall gives some good insight on which version of the Vulgate might work best for you. You can find the link here.
From my understanding the Clementine edition is probably the version you’ll want to use.
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CRM_Brother
Guest
Papal history is somewhat of a hobby for me, so this explanation has been cobbled together from multiple sources. One source I seem to remember that explained some of the papal influence on the Jerome Vulgate is Saints and Sinners by Eamon Duffy. It has been a while since I read the book but it is an extremely good overview of papal history and I believe that is where I was first introduced to the story. Part of my explanation comes from reading the original canons of the Council of Rome found in Denzinger. The exact origin of Jerome’s original confusion can only be theorized as he didn’t explicitly state why he was confused, but reading the original canons make the source of confusion evident: what exactly are “of Solomon, three books”?
po18guy
Well-known member
Thank you, Br. Ben! That really helps.
Hope this is still on-topic. I wonder how manuscripts were much later discovered that the Church did not possess in the 380s, or perhaps even have knowledge of. I find that curious - especially since so many of the looser modern translations are based on them.
Secondly, I personally prefer Vulgate-based translations, as they reflect the warmth and human heart of Jerome. After all, he was chosen to translate - that must count for something. As well, Saint Augustine had rather effusive praise of Jerome’s knowledge of the scriptures.
Example: Jerome’s translation of Tobit, for example, seems more coherent, more personal and more, well, inspired. His translation addresses Tobit in the third person, whereas the later manuscripts begin with Tobit speaking first person (odd for the humility required of scripture), and then inexplicably switching to third person by the third chapter.
My 2¢
Hope this is still on-topic. I wonder how manuscripts were much later discovered that the Church did not possess in the 380s, or perhaps even have knowledge of. I find that curious - especially since so many of the looser modern translations are based on them.
Secondly, I personally prefer Vulgate-based translations, as they reflect the warmth and human heart of Jerome. After all, he was chosen to translate - that must count for something. As well, Saint Augustine had rather effusive praise of Jerome’s knowledge of the scriptures.
Example: Jerome’s translation of Tobit, for example, seems more coherent, more personal and more, well, inspired. His translation addresses Tobit in the third person, whereas the later manuscripts begin with Tobit speaking first person (odd for the humility required of scripture), and then inexplicably switching to third person by the third chapter.
My 2¢
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myway
Guest
I’m surprised the Latin Vulgate is recognized by the Museum of the Bible in Washington D. C.
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