Is Jerusalem an icon for anti-religion?

[OneSheep]

Since Jerusalem is big in the news today, I am thinking that this is an opportune time to consider the spectacle of Jerusalem as an icon for failure of ALL Abrahamic religions.

There, the place where these three major religions meet, is a place of persecution, home demolitions, resentment, insults, and injustices.

Can you imagine, though, a Jerusalem that actually shows that religious faith can change the way that people interact with each other… for the better? All Abrahamic religions value reconciliation.

This is the vision:

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-act...-churches-in-usa-and-holy-land-2016-04-19.cfm

Right now, an atheist can give a one-word reason for why religion is evil. All he needs to say is “Jerusalem”.

 

[Shakuhachi]

Even Jesus wept for Jerusalem. And things have only gotten worse.

 

[Entwhistler]

Actually, this could be said for the entire Middle East area. There have been very few times in history in which this area has seen peace for any long period. I’m not surprised that Jesus was born right in the middle of the most war-torn area in history. Good contrast.

 

[OneSheep]

Even Jesus wept for Jerusalem. And things have only gotten worse.

In part they have gotten worse because Jerusalem is a challenge to humanity itself, right? Is there anywhere else on Earth where property and rights are so contested with the Abrahamic cross section?

Imagine what the place would be if someone had the gumption; for the sake of religion itself!

I’m not surprised that Jesus was born right in the middle of the most war-torn area in history. Good contrast.

It would honor Him to create peace in Jerusalem using the very methodology He proposed: use of inclusion, forgiveness.

Do you agree?

 

[Entwhistler]

Sure. Although, to be honest, I doubt whether Trump acknowledging or not acknowledging Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel will help much either way with the peace. The Jews and the Muslims are still going to hate each other.

 

[OneSheep]

You are probably right, but both Jews and Muslims value forgiveness and human rights.

How does one create a spark of forgiveness and compassion in such a place? Jerusalem is an icon of religious xenophobia, I suppose, an icon of religious hatred, an icon of a style of worship and image of God that is obsolete and is ready to be discarded.

indeed, is there not a need for a “New Jerusalem”? But what does this Jerusalem look like? Can it be such that:

Rev 21:
24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.

Can you imagine?

 

[Mary888]

So religion disturbs so it must be eradicated?
Jerusalem is not an object of quarrel between Christians and Jews. On Temple Mount Muslims are favored before Jews to pray under the guard of Israeli police. What conflict? There is only one side that rallies up to throw stones guess which one is it.
Christians don’t delapidate Jews and viceversa. Guess that leaves …

 

[Vonsalza]

Right now, an atheist can give a one-word reason for why religion is evil. All he needs to say is “Jerusalem”.

In fairness, you can give a one-word reason why state atheism is evil too; “Communism”.

We’re STILL finding mass graves from that particular social experiment. If man doesn’t believe in a divine cop, then the only thing that actively stops his bad behavior is the temporal cop.

How do you spell “police state”?

Trust me, men don’t need God in order to be unimaginably violent to each other.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“Is Jerusalem…”

No. It’s about politics between Palestinians and Jews.

I was in Jerusalem and it is a beautiful place, many holy places and devout religious people there. Obviously, you have never been there.

You can also say the Catholic Protestant wars in Ireland is a statement against religion. But then that would be an over generalization. The problem with generalizing all religion because of a few bad examples is like saying all fruit is bad because you ate a bad apple.

 

[Seeksadvice]

Somewhere, there’s a Merkava that would like to have a word with some folks…

The fight over Jerusalem is more-or-less about territory. You can slap a religious label on it, but, in the end, it’s still about one side wanting to say “it’s mine.”

(name removed by moderator): You would be amazed at how much land various tribes lost to one another in armed conflict. The end result was, in effect, the stronger tribe taking over the weaker ones.

 

[jfz178]

Let’s see: Pope JPII said the Jewish religion is the "respected elder brother of the Catholic faith. The Palestinian Muslims want to kill us with or without a Palestinian homeland.

If Israel controls Jerusalem, all three faiths will have full access to their holy sites. If the Palestinians control it, Christians and Jews will not.

Jerusalem is the ancestral homeland of the Jews going back millenia. The Palestinian identity only goes back to about 1898 and was largely fabricated by an author. It went largely unnoticed until the 1960’s

The Palestinians have lots of like-minded countries to go to that will welcome them with open arms. The Jews have Israel, period.

The Muslims in the area who later became “Palestinians” backed Hitler. The Jews and Hitler…well you know. You could say that’s ancient history, but the Palestinians’ recent actions indicate that they would probably do the same thing again.

A basic part of international relations is that you put your embassy in the capital city of the country, in this case, Jerusalem. We passed a law in 1995, signed by Clinton, that said we recognize that Jerusalem is the capitol of Israel and that we would move the embassy there. Clinton, Bush and Obama all made campaign promises to implement it, but never did.

I have been there. I will side with Israel every time. You will never convince me otherwise.

 

[OneSheep]

You see, Mary, part of the conflict is finger-pointing. All the parties have something to say about being a victim, and all point blame.

 

[OneSheep]

In fairness, you can give a one-word reason why state atheism is evil too; “Communism”.

Except that it is probably only a minority of atheists who are communists.

I am not trying to focus on the negatives of what is going on in Jerusalem as much as how humanity can make it a New Jerusalem in a way that brings us back to seeing a loving God. Indeed, Jerusalem itself could be a place of reconciliation with our past, an embracing of traditions.

It’s possible.

 

[OneSheep]

I was in Jerusalem and it is a beautiful place, many holy places and devout religious people there. Obviously, you have never been there.

Yes, devout religious people, but also people who spit at priests, and people in power who see fit to confiscate and demolish the homes of others.

This is what is seen by the world.

 

[OneSheep]

But can you imagine a new place, a place of mutual respect for human dignity? A place of acceptance of diversity?

 

[OneSheep]

The Palestinian Muslims want to kill us with or without a Palestinian homeland.

This is pro-settlement propaganda. It has no base in fact.

Jerusalem is the ancestral homeland of the Jews going back millenia. The Palestinian identity only goes back to about 1898 and was largely fabricated by an author. It went largely unnoticed until the 1960’s

This is more AIPAC progaganda. It does nothing to help the situation. People own land, and the State takes it away. It is theft. They justify their theft because “God gave it to them”.

The Palestinians have lots of like-minded countries to go to that will welcome them with open arms. The Jews have Israel, period.

They have sort of “welomed” them in varying degrees. As you probably know, millions of Palestinians who had their homes and land stolen are refugees in other nations. Refugees are a burden on the native populace.

You are presenting more AIPAC talking points, which do not lead to religious harmony.

I have been there. I will side with Israel every time. You will never convince me otherwise.

Of course I will never convince you. Like all people, you have an “in-group”, and your ingroup includes Jews who favor theft of Palestinian lands. Most Jews in America disapprove of such theft.

Now, can those Jews own up to the injustices they do, and the Palestinians also own up to the injustices they do, and the Christians also? Is any one of us completely free of any responsibility?

 

[OneSheep]

The word “religion” has at its root the word “liga” from where also comes “ligament”. Religion is supposed to bring people together, hold people together, right?

Where religion instead divides people, it is a massive failure.

 

[jfz178]

No, they are my own opinion. Your complaining about what I said being propaganda doesn’t make what I said factually, historically incorrect, because it is correct. I could just as easily say you position represents PLO propaganda. But facts are facts.

My opinions are based on having visited the country, outside reading and having been involved with military intelligence. I want a peaceful settlement in that area also. But I won’t tolerate anti-Semitism.

 

[Mary888]

On Temple Mount the Muslims do throw real stones at Jews praying.
They do not throw necessarily at Christians as I understand. Since we are not a part of that conflict there, how can be presume to understand the actual conflict?
And it’s more a question of claim not of blame.
Historically Jerusalem was build by Jews, its religious significance was first Jewish. So, how is it that the Christians and the Muslims could ever equate their claim over it, I mean those who do make claims. The Jews usually do not play the victim about any of their land claims in Israel and elsewhere. They play it on other issues not this one. They just do not. They make claim. And it is also religious, And UN that is non-religious, claims that no religious claims can be made about Jerusalem? How come? If they admit they are not interested in religious significance but only cultural and political, how can they claim to be capable of mediating this issue?
If you have any Muslim friends - ask them how important is it to them to get to Jerusalem? Unlike Mecca? Should they go to Mecca or to Jerusalem? And then ask a Jew.
To whom does Jerusalem have more importance? Because in terms of claim, Jews never left the land were forced to leave. They never gave up their land and they are very unpopular because they did everything in their power to get it back when they could. I am not defending all their actions for it, just pointing out what happened. They knew what they wanted because they really wanted it. After they got it the Christian sites began to have more significance at a larger scale too, especially for the West. Before Jerusalem was more a remote pilgrimage for Eastern Christianity, and only those deeply rooted into faith. More for the monastic hermits to worry about getting to Jerusalem. Now a pilgrimage to Jerusalem, to those who can afford it, is as easy as a tourist visit. Who made this possible? The Palestinians? UN?
We, Christians cannot be playing God’s role in this one, we are not as objective as we claim.
Being meek also means being honest. Being vague can sometimes mean being unfair.

 

[OneSheep]

“their”? Is someone serving koolaid?

Jesus looked upon all people with love and welcome. Catholicism is lacking when it does not do the same. If conversion is our purpose, rather than compassion and respect, we are on the wrong path.