J
justasking4
Guest
Do you have chapter and verse for this?
Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?
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C
canne
Guest
Yes, Jesus Christ and the Holy **Catholic **Church are the only means of Salvation.
Jesus formulated one plan of salvation and founded one Church. If that is true, then it follows that all other plans are false. The Church is merely declaring that she believes her teachings to be true. Certainly that should be expected of any religion. After all, if you didn’t believe that your teachings were true, why would you believe them?
*But if only the Catholic Church has the complete plan of salvation, how would it be possible for a non-Catholic to get to heaven? Vatican Council II addressed this point in its “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium),” **“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience *– those too may achieve eternal salvation” (no. 16). **In short,those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.
staycatholic.com/salvation_outside_the_church.htm
Jesus formulated one plan of salvation and founded one Church. If that is true, then it follows that all other plans are false. The Church is merely declaring that she believes her teachings to be true. Certainly that should be expected of any religion. After all, if you didn’t believe that your teachings were true, why would you believe them?
*But if only the Catholic Church has the complete plan of salvation, how would it be possible for a non-Catholic to get to heaven? Vatican Council II addressed this point in its “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium),” **“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience *– those too may achieve eternal salvation” (no. 16). **In short,those who are truly unaware of what God requires of them are not held responsible; rather they are judged by what they did with the truth they had.
staycatholic.com/salvation_outside_the_church.htm
J
justasking4
Guest
i know your church claims this but where do we find such teaching in the scriptures?
C
canne
Guest
Which teaching are you refering to? I want to be sure I answer your question. The teaching that Jesus founded one Church?
J
justasking4
Guest
Originally Posted by Brian Millar
It is written that he who rejects his church, rejects him, and that those individuals are to be treated as heathen.
Where is this found in the scriptures?
C
canne
Guest
As I am not the author of that particular post forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3527936&postcount=912, Your question should be addressed to that person.
However ,I think he may have been infering to
(Matthew 18:17).
KJV
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
NAB
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. *
and **"**Whoever listens to you listens to Me. Whoever rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16),
But I am sure *Brian Millar *will correct me if that is not what he was refering to.
However ,I think he may have been infering to
(Matthew 18:17).
KJV
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
NAB
17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church.* If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. *
and **"**Whoever listens to you listens to Me. Whoever rejects you rejects me" (Luke 10:16),
But I am sure *Brian Millar *will correct me if that is not what he was refering to.
B
Brian_Millar
Guest
Canne, thank you very much for looking those up, I stepped out for a bit, wow this forum moves quickly. Not sure why I got a judge not crack, I was just pointing out what is written, that’s all.
G
guanophore
Guest
Not at all. She has fulfilled the teaching of Paul:
1 Cor 9:22-23
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
What those people needed was love made manifest. In fact, had her agenda been to convert, she would not be allowed to be in many of the countries where there are missions. She was permitted to serve the needs of the people, and through that, was able to bring many to Jesus.
Certainly not. It seems that most agreed upon the Torah, but after that, there was no defined canon. This is why we see so many disputes between the Sadducees and the Pharisees. We can see that bickering over the "writings’ has been going on long before the Church.
This is a good question. The Church accepted the Scriptures that were used by Jesus and the Apostles (Septuagint) and that collection contained Isaiah and the other prophets. The Sadducees did not accept these books.
Those who are not anti-Catholic can find it in the scriptures.
M
meandean
Guest
amen. and if i may add to this, our emotions must be placed under christs authority, otherwise anything goes. ephesians 6:10-20
M
mikew262
Guest
Maybe none of the Christian denominations (including Catholic) have the total truth. All we can do as Christians is strive for it.
I’m sorry, I can’t speak for Mother Teresa, only for myself.
L
Lampo
Guest
So you don’t believe 1 Tim. 3:15?
J
jmcrae
Guest
The concept that the men who wrote them were infallible at the time of writing them did not yet exist. And as someone else mentioned already, the canon of Scripture wasn’t settled at that time - Jews disagreed among themselves about which books were to be read out at the Synagogue, and Temple readings were restricted to the Five Books of Moses (aka the Torah).
The canon of the Old Testament was closed at Trent, more than 1500 years later, but prior to that, it was generally accepted to consist of 46 books; Trent merely affirmed the common practice of the Church. The Apostles used the 46-book canon as we see from how they quote the Old Testament Scriptures in their writings - they are quoting from a 46-book Greek translation of the Old Testament called the “Septuagint”.
D
D_M
Guest
A non-christian cannot inherit eternal life. Every last one of them dies in their sins.
If Abraham, Moses and the prophets did not go to heaven but went to hell because they did not yet have the gospel, than neither did anyone else outside of the christian faith go to heaven. They needed to believe the gospel in order to do so. Gandhi, despite his popularity is included in that as well.
It is necessary to be baptized in order to inherit eternal life, Jesus and Paul both say this. There is no non-christian who is baptized in the Spirit; for if they were the Spirit would instruct them to confess Jesus is Lord (and thus be christian), and they do not do this, therefore they are evidently in the flesh.
People have argued with me on this point; for one thing it seems offensive to our modern sensibilities to make such a claim. Jesus said that unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.
If we find this offensive or are ashamed of it, than Jesus shall be ashamed of us when he comes in the glory of His Father and the holy angels.
Wether it is necessary for a person to be catholic to go to heaven, however, is one which I am somewhat less certain on. In a message last year, the Pope said that other churches ‘lacked the means of salvation’ which I think referred to the sacraments.
Firstly this could not refer to the eastern churches which possess the sacraments, despite their erroneous teachings on other subjects.
In terms of protestants though, people also say though that Christ is not bound by his sacraments, but can impute grace without it. While the sacraments give us much grace, would it be unreasonable to think that Jesus can still find ways to give His grace to His disciples in protestant denominations and they be saved?
I’m unsure about that one.
I do know with certainty that a non-christian cannot go to heaven.
If Abraham, Moses and the prophets did not go to heaven but went to hell because they did not yet have the gospel, than neither did anyone else outside of the christian faith go to heaven. They needed to believe the gospel in order to do so. Gandhi, despite his popularity is included in that as well.
It is necessary to be baptized in order to inherit eternal life, Jesus and Paul both say this. There is no non-christian who is baptized in the Spirit; for if they were the Spirit would instruct them to confess Jesus is Lord (and thus be christian), and they do not do this, therefore they are evidently in the flesh.
People have argued with me on this point; for one thing it seems offensive to our modern sensibilities to make such a claim. Jesus said that unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.
If we find this offensive or are ashamed of it, than Jesus shall be ashamed of us when he comes in the glory of His Father and the holy angels.
Wether it is necessary for a person to be catholic to go to heaven, however, is one which I am somewhat less certain on. In a message last year, the Pope said that other churches ‘lacked the means of salvation’ which I think referred to the sacraments.
Firstly this could not refer to the eastern churches which possess the sacraments, despite their erroneous teachings on other subjects.
In terms of protestants though, people also say though that Christ is not bound by his sacraments, but can impute grace without it. While the sacraments give us much grace, would it be unreasonable to think that Jesus can still find ways to give His grace to His disciples in protestant denominations and they be saved?
I’m unsure about that one.
I do know with certainty that a non-christian cannot go to heaven.
J
jmcrae
Guest
They are in heaven now, though. The reason they didn’t go to Heaven at the time of their deaths was that Heaven had not yet been opened to the human race - that happened at the time of Christ’s Resurrection. At that time, the prophets and all who had been awaiting the Messiah went to Heaven.
Ghandi explicitly rejected the Anglican Church; it’s difficult to know without being God whether this condemns him, or saves him. He was not aware of any other form of Christianity, as far as I can tell.
D
D_M
Guest
No one can enter the Father’s presence when they have sin is what the church has always taught. Therefore heaven (as you say) was closed prior to the grace which came from Jesus by which men could become freed from sin.
If a non-christian can inherit grace, than why could not Abraham have inherited grace? If you do not need to believe in Jesus in order to be saved than why did all those righteous people prior to Jesus die in their sins until he preached to them in hell?
If Jesus imparted grace upon those who did not know him so that they could go to heaven, than why on earth did Abraham, our father in faith and one of the most righteous men to ever live, go to hell???
I know that Gandhi was well-versed in the gospels which he himself saw in Jesus as an example of non-violence and simplicity. I don’t know how familiar he was with catholicism or if he even really knew the difference, but he did know the gospels. Gandhi was also fully aware of Jesus’ claim that one needed to believe in Him in order to come to God, and Gandhi rejected this.
I will admit for arguments’ sake and because it is true, that we are not God and thus cannot make the final 100% decision on who is saved and who is not.
I think it far more likely that our modern sensibilities are deceiving us than that non-christians went to heaven.
J
jmcrae
Guest
But he didn’t go to Hell - he went to the Limbo of the Fathers (which was known to the Jews as “Paradise”) until the coming of Jesus, and then he went to Heaven. It is not possible to get out of Hell, so it was not in Hell that Jesus preached to the dead; it was in the Limbo of the Fathers (Paradise). They ascended from there to Heaven, at the moment of the Resurrection.
This is true. I don’t actually expect Ghandi to be in Heaven - but it is important to realize that we cannot say that anyone is in Hell, because we simply don’t know that.
R
roguejim
Guest
“The Catholic Church alone is the Body of Christ, of which He is Head and Savior. The “People of God” and the “Mystical Body of Christ” are one and the same thing, both of them designating the Church. Membership in the Church requires conditions other than Baptism alone; it requires identical faith and unity of communion, so that by means of the Catholic Church alone, which is the unrestricted instrument of salvation, is it possible to obtain the fulness of the means to salvation. Indeed, the Church is both a sure and an exclusive means of attaining salvation. We must always remember the unity of the Mystical Body outside which there is no salvation, for there is no entering into salvation outside the Church. Outside this Body, the Holy Spirit gives life to no one: those who are enemies to unity do not participate in the charity of Divine Life; those outside the Church do not possess the Holy Spirit. The entrance to salvation is open to no one outside the Church!”
POPE PAUL VI
“The Church alone is the entrance to salvation.”
POPE PIUS XII
“The mystery of salvation is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this single source it reaches the world. There is no salvation outside the Church. From her alone there flows the life-giving force destined to renew the whole of humanity, directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“He who does not keep the true Catholic faith whole and without error will undoubtedly be lost. He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life.”
POPE GREGORY XVI
“There is salvation in no one except Christ, and the Church is His Body.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ;
it is impossible to be united to Christ except in and through the Church, His Mystical Body.”
POPE JOHN XXIII
"Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. No one can in any way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother. Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort. This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."
POPE PAUL VI
“The Church alone is the entrance to salvation.”
POPE PIUS XII
“The mystery of salvation is continued and accomplished in the Church, and from this single source it reaches the world. There is no salvation outside the Church. From her alone there flows the life-giving force destined to renew the whole of humanity, directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“He who does not keep the true Catholic faith whole and without error will undoubtedly be lost. He who is separated from the Catholic Church will not have life.”
POPE GREGORY XVI
“There is salvation in no one except Christ, and the Church is His Body.”
POPE JOHN PAUL II
“It is impossible to be joined to God except through Jesus Christ;
it is impossible to be united to Christ except in and through the Church, His Mystical Body.”
POPE JOHN XXIII
"Those who acknowledge Christ must acknowledge Him completely and entirely. The Head is the only-begotten Son of God; the Body is His Church. No one can in any way be counted among the children of God unless they take Jesus Christ as their Brother and, at the same time, the Church as their Mother. Christianity is, in fact, incarnate in the Catholic Church; it is identified with that perfect spiritual society which is the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ and has for its visible head the Roman Pontiff. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a futile effort. This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it upon your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church."
P
peary
Guest
The Catholic Church is NOT a denomination.
I didn’t ask you to speak for Mother Teresa, I suggested that you read the book about her.
The Church has contained within itself ALL the Truth that God chose to reveal to us.
D
D_M
Guest
Not exactly, they went to hell (or ‘sheol’, the abode of the dead, in the hebrew scripture) but they did not suffer final damnation.
Wether that is a different place or the same place I am unable to state with certainty, although you are right when you state that they did not suffer final damnation wherever they went (which was still not heaven).
The point I was hoping to make though, was that they nevertheless did not go to heaven until they heard the gospel preached and believed in it. I must invariably conclude that if even such a just man as Abraham could not go to heaven (and we are agreed) that no other non-christian could either.
I do sometimes entertain the idea that perhaps non-christians could be given the same opportunity that Abraham did, and believe after they died; I don’t know if church teaching actually makes that impossible. If that were the case it would still nevertheless necessarily follow that they, like Abraham, had to become christian before they could have salvation.
Hence to repeat: non-christians are not saved. They all, like Abraham that most just man, die in their sins. Only christians go to heaven.
J
jmcrae
Guest
I find your reasoning process interesting. Would you also say that people who go to Purgatory, but finally end up in Heaven, have “died in their sins”?
Abraham is now in Heaven; this is by no means the end result for those who actively deny Christ, or who, having the opportunity to become Catholics, refuse it.
Abraham is now in Heaven; this is by no means the end result for those who actively deny Christ, or who, having the opportunity to become Catholics, refuse it.
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