Here is your response to my question:
Fasting and prayer.
I think so. Certainly, they didn’t have any idea of praying by themselves for forgiveness and not doing anything in atonement. Have you read the Book of Leviticus? The people of David’s time were bound by those laws.
Couple of points. The passage in James says nothing about a priest here but to “one another”. Says notthing either about each forgiving each other either. I John 1:9 speaks directly of forgiveness without any priest being present.
If you look at the context you will see that this is a reference back to Christ Himself Who was a man Himself. Its not saying --now all men can forgive sins.
On what basis were the apostles forgiving sins? We see it first in Acts 2:38 where Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
True but no reference to any church offical here.
This is always within the context of the gospel itself. Men can only be forgiven when they believe the gospel (I Cor 15:1-4). It is by belief in the gospel that saves us and establishes our relationship with God in Christ that when we sin we can go directly to him for forgiveness.
This kind of thing goes beyond the scriptures teaching. There is no priest in the NT forgiving people of the sins they commit.
David may have done these things but where does it say it was required by the Lord to be forgiven?
i’m aware of the various sacrifices that were done but i can’t recall anyone going to Levite priests and confessing specific sins to him to be forgiven. Can you?
It speaks of calling for the elders. “presbyter” is where we get the English word for priest.
We are all called upon to forgive others of their sins against us, this is in the Lord’s prayer. But those in the Apostolic Succession can forgive sins in the Person of Christ (on His behalf) and also on behalf of the Church. This reconciles the sinner to the faith community.
All that is required for baptism is a profession of faith. The sacrament of reconciliation is for those who sin after baptism.
Yes, they repented, made a profession of faith, and were baptized. God forgives their sins, and washes them clean in baptims. After that, when one falls from grace, confession can be made. By confessing to a priest, we do go directly to God. “He who hears you Hears me”. This is what "in the person of Christ’ means. Jesus has no earthly body now on earth.
Why would NOT you want to confess them to the person who had been appointed to grant forgiveness in HIs name?
You are imagining a “layer” that does not exist.
Yes. The NT is not the total of Christian faith and practice. Although we can see references to this practice, we need to look at the actions of the early Christians to see how they lived this out. This is what is called Sacred Tradition.
Do you imagine that someone can have eternal life while they are still in their sins?
Yes. There is a procedure laid out in the law of the covenant. It is a prefigurement of what Jesus brought in the New.
Based on who’s interpretation of this teaching?
Why was he doing it, otherwise?
The priest would know by what kind of animal was being presented to him for the sacrifice, what sins were being forgiven. He would also be giving the people advice on, say for instance, how many goats to sacrifice for this many times to gossip about my neighbor, or whatever.
That may be. However what we don’t see in this passage of a Christian going to another Christian and getting some kind of penance or absolution from that Christian in whom a sin is being confessed. This is not the NT way.
What catholics do a lot of is to add things to the their doctrines and practices. This issue is a case in point. Their is no “office” of priest in the NT like we see in catholicism. Rather we see Christians helping to exhort and encourage each other to remain true to Christ. If they sin, there is a provision that is provided by direct access to God.
True and this is as far as it goes in the sense that no one has the power to forgive sins by confession and peneance.
The church is to point the way in how a person is fogiven by God directly and that we are to forgive sins committed against us. Once the relationship with Christ has been established that person is forgiven and can be forgiven again and again.
Do you believe in infant baptism?
Can a Christian go directly to God without a priest and be forgiven?
For one the Scriptures don’t teach this. We have direct access to the Father thru the Son. Hebrews 4:15-16 speaks of this where it says:
How so?
Do we agree then that the idea of going to a priest to be forgiven is not in the NT but came about later?
Yes but they will be in misery.
Written by David after his affair.
But there is no spcefic confession of sins by individuals to a priest who in turns forgives them.
It is, ja4. this is how Jesus set it up. What do you think it means, when it says "whose sins you are forgiven, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained?
Yes, and these “spiritrally mature” persons are known as presbyters, which is where we get the word “priest”.
The "office of priest in the NT is described by the word “presbyter”. It is pronounced differently in different languages. You imagine that confession to a priest is not “direct access to God”. In your mind you put some kind of “layer” there that does not exist. The priest acts in the Person of Christ.
You are right. The power to forgive sins comes from God. Are you saying this because you believe God gave the power to men, then took it back?
Yes, that is why we celebrate the Sacrament of Reconciliation at least once a week. The Apostles taught that the Church not only “points the way” but actually IS the conduit of grace through which people are saved. That is why it is said that there is no salvation outside the Church.
All Apostolic faiths practice infant baptism, as done by the Apostles.
Confession is the normative means (the way Jesus set it up). There are exceptions to the norm.
Scripture does not teach at all, ja4. People teach. For example, some anti-Catholic source has been teaching you quite a bit. How long has this been going on? I was quite surprised to see your post that Muslims don’t worship the God of Abraham. It makes one wonder how many other prejudicial things you have been erroneously taught.
This is what we do in ALL the sacraments.
We see it clearly (since we are not looking with our anti-
I think that is not really “life” but eternal death!
The practice of public confession of sins may have developed during the intertestamental period. It was practiced by John:
No doubt Jesus made it possible for a man to go directly to God through Him to be forgiven. What we don’t see is this idea you need a priest to absolve you of your sins. Passages in John or James don’t say such a thing.
Does the Holy Spirit teach individuals?
How you can say that Musliums worship the same God as Christians do is an indication you do not understand the concept of God in Islam. If you did, you would not say that a religion that denies that God is Trinitarian is the same God as Abraham. This is a fundamental error and for the catholic church to say such a thing would be to say the Mormons also worship the same God as Christians because they believe in the Scriptures.
You will have to take that up with the Lord Jesus. He is the one who commissioned the Apostles to that work.
I believe He does.
Yes, I would, ja4. What you don’t seem to understand is that Salvation is of the Jews. The Jews believed that God was One. this is one of the reasons they crucified Jesus, because He said He was the Son of God, making Himself equal with God. They were scandalized by this because they were monotheists. They have always been, and are now, monotheists. The trinity was not revealed until the coming of Christ. You can’t fault people for not believing something that was never revealed.
I don’t think the Mormons “believe in the scriptures” the way Catholics do. They don’t even believe in them as well as fundamentalists do, and there is much lacking there too. No one can really “believe” in the Scriptures when they reject the Sacred Traditions from whence they came.
Three persons, rather, who share one Divine nature.
Do you believe then that Muslims, Mormons and Christians all worship the same God?
OKThree persons, rather, who share one Divine nature.
Each claims to, but the understanding of God is different. I think that out of the three, Mormons are way out there.
Yes, but we worship what we know…Christians have received more revelation about the God of Abraham than the Jews and Muslims. This is what Jesus said to those who were mixed with the sons of Ishmael:
No its not, it may think it is, much like many others in the industry, but no its not the only way to God.