Is Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church the only way to salvation?

[elt1956]

Yes you must have jesus to have salvation, but you do not have to be catholic to get it. Thats what we catholics believe.

Hello Cradle Catholic. I have been through several arguments on another forum about this same thing. It seems the rule about salvation outside the Catholic Church is one of interpretation and interpretations can be very personal. Most Catholics, at least the ones I went to school with, believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church. The argument I have is that if a person really wants to know Jesus, wants with all their heart to follow His dictates, but is not Catholic, that person is still connected with the Catholic Church through desire to know and love God in the best way possible for them. The church says, if a person outside the Catholic Church “knows” the difference between their faith and that of the Catholic Church but rejects the Catholic Church’s teachings, then there can be no salvation. My problem is with the “knowing” bit… I am still very confused about this so I am leaving the final judgement up to God, not the Church. Peace.

 

[mikew262]

I nevertheless therefore maintain that non-christians must become christian before they can enter heaven.

Then you and the Catholic Church disagree.

 

[rinnie]

Are you saying that even those who try to live a Christian life but reject the Catholic Church (out of ignorance) should be considered heathen?

The thing that i cant understand and I have asked this question over and over and have NEVER got a answer is. How can anyone go by the Apostles scriptures and accept them but not go by their Creed?

 

[D_M]

Then you and the Catholic Church disagree.

Do you think that people worship Krishna in heaven?

 

[rinnie]

Hello Cradle Catholic. I have been through several arguments on another forum about this same thing. It seems the rule about salvation outside the Catholic Church is one of interpretation and interpretations can be very personal. Most Catholics, at least the ones I went to school with, believe there is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church. The argument I have is that if a person really wants to know Jesus, wants with all their heart to follow His dictates, but is not Catholic, that person is still connected with the Catholic Church through desire to know and love God in the best way possible for them. The church says, if a person outside the Catholic Church “knows” the difference between their faith and that of the Catholic Church but rejects the Catholic Church’s teachings, then there can be no salvation. My problem is with the “knowing” bit… I am still very confused about this so I am leaving the final judgement up to God, not the Church. Peace.

Ok but you must remember that the apostle teachings warn us that there will be people out there that will mislead others away from the church. And warned us not to fall prey to that. And it also says you can fall from Grace. Just something to think about.

 

[elt1956]

The thing that i cant understand and I have asked this question over and over and have NEVER got a answer is. How can anyone go by the Apostles scriptures and accept them but not go by their Creed?

Personal interpretation is hard to disregard if one has done it all their lives. Could be they believe in scripture only using their own interpretation. Peace.

 

[elt1956]

The thing that i cant understand and I have asked this question over and over and have NEVER got a answer is. How can anyone go by the Apostles scriptures and accept them but not go by their Creed?

Ok but you must remember that the apostle teachings warn us that there will be people out there that will mislead others away from the church. And warned us not to fall prey to that. And it also says you can fall from Grace. Just something to think about.

Hello rinnie. I just have a very hard time putting people in Hell, or depriving them of God’s final presence. Have been thinking about the “knowing”. I am beginning to believe this means one knows with their whole heart, mind and soul, the Catholic Church is the only true Church, or if one investigates because of doubt in their own Faith, they refuse to believe out of obstinance. ?? Peace.

 

[rinnie]

Hello rinnie. I just have a very hard time putting people in Hell, or depriving them of God’s final presence. Have been thinking about the “knowing”. I am beginning to believe this means one knows with their whole heart, mind and soul, the Catholic Church is the only true Church, or if one investigates because of doubt in their own Faith, they refuse to believe out of obstinance. ?? Peace.

I understand what you are saying about putting people in Hell, I myself have a difficut time thinking about it . But just because we dont like to think about it dont mean it dont exist. And think of it this way, Why did Jesus come down to save us from Hell, Why did he give us the Church. For that exact reason. He wants us to want him. But lets face it the the devils here too. to tempt us and take us away from him… And how is the first way to do it. Get us away from the church. Tell us to do what we want. Tell us not to listen to the Church. I mean even if you dont agree with everything you must see some truth in that. That is why i am not great teacher, Just a mom of 2 a wife, But you know what God says too, its people like me who see the truth easier than people who study for years and years.

 

[elt1956]

I understand what you are saying about putting people in Hell, I myself have a difficut time thinking about it . But just because we dont like to think about it dont mean it dont exist. And think of it this way, Why did Jesus come down to save us from Hell, Why did he give us the Church. For that exact reason. He wants us to want him. But lets face it the the devils here too. to tempt us and take us away from him… And how is the first way to do it. Get us away from the church. Tell us to do what we want. Tell us not to listen to the Church. I mean even if you dont agree with everything you must see some truth in that. That is why i am not great teacher, Just a mom of 2 a wife, But you know what God says too, its people like me who see the truth easier than people who study for years and years.

I think for the time being, I’ll continue to pray and leave the final judgement up to God. After all, He is the final arbitrator. Peace.

 

[Brian_Millar]

Ok but you must remember that the apostle teachings warn us that there will be people out there that will mislead others away from the church. And warned us not to fall prey to that. And it also says you can fall from Grace. Just something to think about.

Amen infinity!!!

 

[distracted]

If you want another answer and decide to ignore the above rant, then it’s simple “yes”…

That is not what the Catholic Church teaches… it teaches that a person who honestly does not believe the Catholic Church is THE Church established by Christ can be saved. It is only the one who knows the Church is true & refuses to join or even consider joining… who cannot be saved because he/seh is rejecting Christ (as one saint said “The Church is Christ”…/

 

[Brian_Millar]

Total agreement here, but I gotta see the original context, perhaps it was worded wrong. I very much look forward to helping those, non denomational or otherwise into the real church, the Catholic church!!!

 

[mikew262]

Do you think that people worship Krishna in heaven?

Apparently your argument is not with me, but with the Catholic Church. What you are saying does not jive with Catechism.

To paraphrase, If one has not been exposed to the Gospel of Christ through no fault of their own, but has strove to follow God in a sincere way, they too can obtain eternal salvation.

Krishna was their idea of God in your example.

 

[D_M]

Apparently your argument is not with me, but with the Catholic Church. What you are saying does not jive with Catechism.

To paraphrase, If one has not been exposed to the Gospel of Christ through no fault of their own, but has strove to follow God in a sincere way, they too can obtain eternal salvation.

Krishna was their idea of God in your example.

This is what the catechism says:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I am not in disagreement with this.

Parts I would highlight most especially are the phrases ‘in ways known to himself God…’

which I think strongly implies a way in which is to be extraordinary (ie. that which is in a way other than how christians are normally saved and going to heaven). The reason why these ways are different must invariably be because like Abraham who died in his sins, none of these people have knowledge of the gospel.

Perhaps they, like Abraham did, go to hell now and are given a chance to hear the gospel in the underworld?

Perhaps they go to hell now, and are given a chance to hear the gospel preached, repent and believe at the resurrection?

I am not in disagreement that those who would accept the gospel but could not, God would give them a chance to do so somehow or someway. Which is what the catechism says that you think I am in disagreement with.

What I do know with certainty is that without Jesus and His grace all men remain sinners, and with that sin they cannot come to the Father. No one goes to the Father but through Him, and if you do not believe that Jesus is he you will die in your sins.

Non-christians cannot inherit salvation, they must become christian in order to do so.

Krishna is an idol of the Hindu religion. Like Zeus or Jupiter, he is not God, nor a god. I am also not convinced that honouring Krishna is a sincere attempt at obeying God.

 

[mikew262]

This is what the catechism says:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

I am not in disagreement with this.

Parts I would highlight most especially are the phrases ‘in ways known to himself God…’

which I think strongly implies a way in which is to be extraordinary (ie. that which is in a way other than how christians are normally saved and going to heaven). The reason why these ways are different must invariably be because like Abraham who died in his sins, none of these people have knowledge of the gospel.

Perhaps they, like Abraham did, go to hell now and are given a chance to hear the gospel in the underworld?

Perhaps they go to hell now, and are given a chance to hear the gospel preached, repent and believe at the resurrection?

I am not in disagreement that those who would accept the gospel but could not, God would give them a chance to do so somehow or someway. Which is what the catechism says that you think I am in disagreement with.

What I do know with certainty is that without Jesus and His grace all men remain sinners, and with that sin they cannot come to the Father. No one goes to the Father but through Him, and if you do not believe that Jesus is he you will die in your sins.

Non-christians cannot inherit salvation, they must become christian in order to do so.

Krishna is an idol of the Hindu religion. Like Zeus or Jupiter, he is not God, nor a god. I am also not convinced that honouring Krishna is a sincere attempt at obeying God.

Well, I still respectfully disagree with you concerning your premise that non-Christians cannot make it heaven. Even the quoted catechism refutes your claim, no matter how you try to explain yourself, unless you believe the church is somehow in error on this.

I believe the Hindus are honoring their idea of God the best they can through the dictates of their conscience, and if they had no exposure to the Gospel of Christ then they can’t be held accountable.

 

[rinnie]

Well, I still respectfully disagree with you concerning your premise that non-Christians cannot make it heaven. Even the quoted catechism refutes your claim, no matter how you try to explain yourself, unless you believe the church is somehow in error on this.

I believe the Hindus are honoring their idea of God the best they can through the dictates of their conscience, and if they had no exposure to the Gospel of Christ then they can’t be held accountable.

But that is what he IS saying to you. If you dont know the faith and are not exposed to it your are NOT held responsible. But if the faith is there for your to learn and you know it and refuse to accept it then you are GETTING IT. If you reject God and refuse to follow him you are not one of his. Its as simple as that. He is not saying if you dont know any better. If you dont know any better than God will have mercy on you its not your fault. Hope that helps you to understand a little better. God Bless.

 

[Brian_Millar]

I’d like to know how difficult it is to acquire a bible in India. Surely it can’t be that hard, there are also plenty of christian churches to choose from as well. They cannot say they have no chance at exposure to the gospel, it’s everywhere these days.

 

[sodak]

That is why i am not great teacher, Just a mom of 2 a wife, But you know what God says too, its people like me who see the truth easier than people who study for years and years.

Right on!!!

 

[D_M]

Well, I still respectfully disagree with you concerning your premise that non-Christians cannot make it heaven. Even the quoted catechism refutes your claim, no matter how you try to explain yourself, unless you believe the church is somehow in error on this.

I believe the Hindus are honoring their idea of God the best they can through the dictates of their conscience, and if they had no exposure to the Gospel of Christ then they can’t be held accountable.

Maybe I’ve phrased myself incorrectly. I think that people in other religions who could not know the gospel will be given a chance to at some point, wether in hell or at the resurrection or somehow and then they may inherit salvation, because at that point they are no longer non-christians, because then they would have believed the gospel and become christians.

The catechism does not refute what I say, it says that in ways known to God that somehow these people may still be saved. If the catechism had meant that Hindus, Jews, atheists, Muslims or satanists, each holding to their conscience and respecting their own erroneous view of the truth, all went to heaven immediately after they died just as did a christian saint, then I think it would have said that. It does not, instead it says, ‘in ways known to God’.

None of those people could go to heaven unless they, as Abraham had to, have knowledge of the gospel and believed. Until then they remain in their sins.

What the catechism says in the section I quote is that the affirmation that ‘outside the church there is no salvation’ is not directed against those who could not have come to the gospel. It is not, however, aimed at discounting the affirmation that 'outside Jesus there is no salvation;, because truth be told outside Jesus there is no salvation. It does not matter.

Going to heaven is not a right, it is a gift which is given by his grace which comes to some sooner and to others later.

I think you are in opposition to the gospel itself, because Jesus really did say that unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins (John 8:24). There is a possibility of salvation outside the church in ways known to God, but there is no salvation outside Jesus Christ.

 

[pismopal]

Jimmy_B:
No, they aren’t but they are the best way, by a long shot.