Is Jesus God if

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mickey3456987
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You don’t think that it’s a bit disingenuous to require aCatholic verification of a Hindu miracle? Can I require that Hindi’s verify Marian miracles before I’d consider them?

I don’t completely rule out miracles of any faith but I do require disinterested scientists not affiliated with the religion before I would even go one step further. I’m sorry, that’s just the way my brain works. From my research every fully investigated miracle claim by disinterested scientists have concluded that a miracle did not occur. Miracles now seem to be limited to remote villages in third world countries these days.

Did something unusual happen at Fatima? Probably. Was it a miraculous appearance of Mary? No. It was interpreted as such, mostly by believers. I don’t find anything there that I would believe was a miracle. Sorry.
 
The reason I want a Catholic verification of your miracle (anyone who has reason to be sceptical would work, I just used Catholic for rhetoric) is because, if you look at my previous post, that is exactly the sort of thing Fatima had.
 
Read the wiki article under the criticism portion and you will see many of the problems. The people were primed beforehand to expect a miracle. They were staring at the sun! We know what that does to vision. Not everyone saw it. The descriptions were often contradictory. I’m sorry but Fátima was an unusual weather or solar phenomenon and imagination took it from there.

 
In 1979, the portrait of Our Lady of Guadalupe underwent a searching scientific study by Dr. Philip Callahan, a research biophysicist at the University of Florida. One of the methods used was to photograph it extensively in infra-red light, which is a recommended technique for the critical study of old paintings. He found evidence that some minor decorations such as the sunburst around Mary, which is clearly cracking and fading, were added after the original. In confirmation, the sunburst does not appear in early representations of the image in indian picture writing. But with every aspect of Mary’s face and form, the conclusion was quite different, and I quote:
"The mantle is of a dark turquoise blue… This presents an inexplicable phenomenon because all such pigments are semi-permanent and known to be subject to considerable fading with time, especially in hot climates. The Indian Mayan blue wall paintings are already badly faded. The blue mantle, however, is bright enough to have been laid last week.
The most remarkable feature of the robe is its remarkable luminosity. It is highly reflective of visible radiation yet transparent to the infared rays… As in the case of the blue mantle the shadowing of the pink robe is blended into the paint layer and no drawing or sketch is evident under the pink pigment…
The pink pigment appears to be inexplicable… One of the really strange aspects of this painting is that not only is the tilma not sized, but there is absolutely no protective coating of varnish. Despite this unusual total lack of any protective overcoating, the robe and mantle are as bright and colored as if the paint were newly laid.
The head of the Virgin of Guadalupe is one of the great masterpieces of artistic facial expression. In subtleness of form, simplicity of execution, hue and coloring it has few equals among the masterpieces of the world. Furthermore, there are no portraits that I have ever observed which are executed in a similar manner…
One of the truly marvelous and inexplicable techniques utilized to give realism to the painting is the way that it takes advantage of the unsized tilma to give it depth and render it lifelike. This is particularly evident in the mouth, where a coarse fiber of the fabric is raised above the level of the rest of the weave and follows perfectly the ridge at the top of the lip. The same rough imperfections occur below the highlighted area on the left cheek and to the right and below the right eye. I would consider it impossible that any human painter could select a tilma with imperfections of weave positioned so as to accentuate the shadows and highlights in order to impart realism. The possibility of chance is even more unlikely… The black of the eyes and hair cannot be iron oxide or any pigment that turns brown with age for the paint is neither cracked nor faded with age. The truly phenomenal thing about the face and hands is the total quality which is as much a physical effect from the tilma as it is from the paint itself.
I’ll reply to the OL of Fatima post next time.
 
I have read the criticism part and it has major problems. Objection A) They were expecting it and it was suggested to them. Reply A) Many of them came just to laugh at it, and the idea that 3 uneducated children managed to psychologically influence tens of thousands of people to that extent is preposterous. More later, I’m a little short on time.
 
No rush, I am just not convinced of the rebuttals and the scientific explanations make more sense to me than the claims of a miracle. It is a futile argument in my case.
 
My boss just called and told me we don’t have to work today. The “scientific” explanations are inconsistent and fall quite flat. There was only the claim that something extraordinary would happen. No one had said anything about the sun. To gather from that that people were staring at the sun doesn’t make sense. I have a friend who stared at the sun when he was six and all he got was a flat pupil, not a miracle. Also, I wonder about the claim of the dust cloud. I’ve seen clouds between me and the sun, and it never makes it dance. For three kids to predict something like that is a miracle in itself. Remember that there were sceptical aetheists here that saw it.
 
Well then, you just go right on believing in it. I have no problem with your beliefs in miracles. It just takes more than that to cause my beliefs.
 
How do you deny Guadalupe or the historical accuracy of the Bible? They are harder to argue with.
 
Pascal’s wager does actually teach us one thing for sure: you absolutely logically should not hold to a religion that holds that all religions are valid. At least hedge your bets by belonging to one that claims that it has an exclusive claim.
 
Sincere question…don’t the majority of religions today claim exclusivity? I’m only coming up with Buddhism as a possible exception?
 
I may be mistaken, but I think Hinduism is somewhat universalist.

Then there are universalist sects of many religions.
 
B is interesting. I was religious and loved it. For no apparent reason that I have ever determined, I lost my faith. It was a process over time. I was miserable for over seven years of trying to get my beliefs back. I finally accepted it and I’ve been very happy since. I’m married over 45 years to my best friend. I have grown children and grandchildren. I’m financially secure and retired now. Life is pretty wonderful so another persons happiness with their faith is good for them. My experience was otherwise.
One of my favorite homilies discussed what can Christianity can give you. The priest basically said he can’t promise Christianity will give you happiness, family, worldly praise, or financial security. In fact in may give you the exact opposite of this…persecution, etc. To this priest Christianity gave him peace. That is what he wanted.
 
I think happiness claims are situational and hard to justify from any faith or non faith position. Many people are happy or miserable because of or regardless of their religion. It proves nothing!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top