Is Jesus God? Proof outside (?) of western traditions

[kjack2222]

Hello all -

I"ve been grappling recently with how to share/back up/explain my understanding and belief of Jesus as God to someone who primarily functions and grew up outside of western faiths and Christianity. Typically Catholics are only trying to refute the idea that Jesus is simply man from a Christian perspective using the bible, but how do we prove the same using extra-biblical resources or spirituality etc. When we look at scripture and Jesus’ divinity, usually we’re pointing to things like explicit assertions of his divine nature, divine names applied to Jesus, miracles, etc. But when you look to other traditions, especially Eastern ones, there are many gurus who look and sound very much like Jesus. Not all assert their divine nature, very often it’s crazy people who do that in other traditions and they get written off, but some do/come close or it’s been assigned to them post mortem. Bottom line, if someone doesn’t value and give the level of credence to the Bible that Christians do (e.g. it’s just another sacred text), then what leg is there to stand on proving Jesus is God? All thoughts and experiences are welcomed here - thank you.

 

[Vico]

The rule of faith is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, manifested in the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. Eastern religions are either atheism or not monotheistic and some are pantheistic, and holding that there is no creator God (there is an idea of rearranging pre-existing matter).

 

[Hodos]

I think you can look at secular sources confirming that Jesus followers actually believed that Jesus was God. This shows that this belief was not a later invention of the Church as some people claim. Tacitus and Suetonius for example, as well as the Letter of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan all affirm that from a very early time period Christians worshipped Jesus as God and believed him to be divine. Jewish sources also provide extra-scriptural evidence that Christians believed this from the get-go. Josephus and certain statements in the Mishnah support this. These same sources also provide secular corroboration that Christ was crucified by Pontius Pilate, died, and was believed to have been resurrected from the dead. From there, I think it is then reasonable to examine the assertions that scriptural documents make about the nature of Christ and to look at the main evidence for Jesus’ divinity, namely the resurrection. They may or may not accept this line of reasoning, but what can be demonstrated is that the scriptures do offer what purports to be a historical rather than a mythical narrative of Christ, and that it is not unreasonable to trust in the testimony offered by scripture.

 

[Dan_Defender]

OP: you’d have to do a bit of comparative religion and explain how Christianity is uniquely different from other religions. How it teaches that God Himself entered human history and how martyrdom for centuries was its seed and how it thrived against all odds.

 

[Dorothy]

All of the apostles, except for John, were willing to suffer a martyrs death rather than deny Christ.

They had all seen Him after His Resurrection.

 

[jochoa]

Bottom line, if someone doesn’t value and give the level of credence to the Bible that Christians do (e.g. it’s just another sacred text), then what leg is there to stand on proving Jesus is God? All thoughts and experiences are welcomed here - thank you.

One means to connect that Jesus is God, if someone believes that the Bible is fictional, is via the formula to attain the greatest being in a free world.

Where the greatest being is unbreakable peace with unlimited joy, also known as getting all needs met, while getting unlimited wants fulfilled.

The simplified formula to attain this being is to always be patient and kind, even in the face of unjust cruelty through death, towards others and yourself.

Jesus fulfilled this formula throughout his entire ministry, however specifically evident in his passion and crucifixion, therefore Jesus is one with the Greatest Being, God.

 

[kjack2222]

@Vico - thanks for the reply! What I’ve run into does posit that there’s a creator God, and quite frankly I have conversations about God with these individuals and if you’d hidden us all behind walls so you coulndn’t see us, and took out specific names (e.g. insert God for Jesus or God for Krishna) - it’d be very hard to know that we were each talking about God from a different tradition.

 

[kjack2222]

@jochoa - That was awesome thank you! Just to play devil’s advocate here, how would you respond to the counter point that you don’t need the Catholic Church to do just that - all (at least) the big 5 religions will get you there.

 

[Vico]

@Vico - thanks for the reply! What I’ve run into does posit that there’s a creator God, and quite frankly I have conversations about God with these individuals and if you’d hidden us all behind walls so you coulndn’t see us, and took out specific names (e.g. insert God for Jesus or God for Krishna) - it’d be very hard to know that we were each talking about God from a different tradition.

The Holy Trinity is true creator in Christianity, and God is true creator in Judaism, and Islam. In other beliefs, such as those from India, the creator god merely rearranges eternally existing matter or the world emanates, or is a very old being that mistakenly thinks it is the creator, in other words, there is no true creator ex nihilo.

 

[BartholomewB]

Tacitus and Suetonius for example, as well as the Letter of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan all affirm that from a very early time period Christians worshipped Jesus as God and believed him to be divine.

What have you found in Suetonius? There are just two short sentences in The Twelve Caesars that mention Christians in Rome, but neither of them says anything about Christ being worshiped as God.
In Robert Graves’ translation:

• Because the Jews at Rome caused continuous disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the City (Claudius 25)
• Punishments were also inflicted on the Christians, a sect professing a new and mischievous religious belief (Nero 16)

Is there something I’ve missed?

 

[Hodos]

You may be correct, I was going off memory, but your statements sound correct. I think you are right that he mentions the expulsion of Christians. For some reason I was thinking he mentioned something along the lines of “Chrestians who worship a man named Chrestus as if he was a God.” I may be conflating Suetonius and Tacitus.

 

[jochoa]

@jochoa - That was awesome thank you! Just to play devil’s advocate here, how would you respond to the counter point that you don’t need the Catholic Church to do just that - all (at least) the big 5 religions will get you there.

To not give the Catholic Church credit for sharing such wisdom indicates one is missing some major points:

1. The Author of the First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians deserves primary credit because this wisdom is shared most gracefully in the letter: specifically, “… the greatest is [patience and kindness].” Unless, the counter can share an earlier source than the letter, that shares in one phrase: patience and kindness are greatest. I am open to redirection, yet in my studies, no other religion or resource has shared the solution as simply. The closest I found was the six paramitas of Buddhism, but this was not quite as good because it placed patience third and kindness first. It is very important that patience and kindness are unified, with patience being first and kindness being second because patience maintains peace, while kindness builds joy.
2. To not recognize the Wholly-Bible as a Catholic collection of writings is in the least to accidentally ignore historical facts.

Also, which five big religions are you referencing?

 

[BornInMarch]

Typically Catholics are only trying to refute the idea that Jesus is simply man from a Christian perspective using the bible, but how do we prove the same using extra-biblical resources or spirituality etc.

The big thing is that the first members of the Church - the Apostles - were willing to put their money where their mouths were. if they were just liars or conmen then they wouldn’t have chosen to die in painful manners rather than renounce Christ and worship a pagan God. In other words the apostles were true believers.

Based on the above, we can rule out the possibility of them being the ones who stole the Body of Christ, and since nobody else had a motivation to we are left with the awkward question of where it went. If Christ was just a human or a good teacher then his body wouldn’t have vanished after three days.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’m rather going to miss opportunities like this.

A question, not for argument, just for thinking about/investigating - how is it known that various Apostles died in various ways?

 

[Elijah1]

Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God (Matt. 3:17), is the one and only Savior given by God (Acts 13:23). Christ is the sole mediator between God and man (I Tim. 2:5) and the only way to God (John 14:6).

But we do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is a God-Man. He is man in nature according to His own testimony (John 8:40) and the teachings of His Apostles (I Tim. 2:5; Matt. 1:18).

The attributes of a human being are found in Christ. He hungered (Matt. 4:2), thirsted (John 19:28), became weary or tired (John 4:6), slept (Matt. 8:24), and died (Matt. 27:50; I Cor. 15:3). However, Christ as distinct from all men, is the only one Who did not sin (I Pet. 2:21-22; Heb. 4:15).

He has been exalted by God and given a name above all other names, that at the name of Christ every knee should bow, those in heaven, and those on earth (Phil. 2:9-11). He has been placed by God far above all principality, power, might and dominion, and every name that is named, and all things have been put under His feet (Eph. 1:21-22). Christ will eventually subject all His power and authority to the true God (I Cor. 15:27-28). He had in so many instances introduced Himself as the Son of God but never did He appropriate the title “God” nor “God the Son” for Himself because He is not God but a man.

 

[JMMJ]

Truthfully, I don’t think you can. People believe what they believe. If they change their minds, it is not usually due to a debate they have with someone. Critical life experiences are what, I believe, change people. I guess a debate could be a critical life experience, depending on the circumstances, but it isn’t likely.

Most of the time, debate just reinforces the beliefs someone already has.

 

[meltzerboy2]

Yes indeed. Most people start with their preconceived beliefs, which they have already worked long and hard to arrive at, and work from there to prove those beliefs against all odds and oncomers. And if they do happen to change their beliefs, they often defend their new beliefs with uncommon zeal and diminish their prior beliefs with uncommon dislike. The human mind is a peculiarly wonderful mechanism.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But we do not subscribe to the belief that Christ is a God-Man.

…

Christ will eventually subject all His power and authority to the true God (I Cor. 15:27-28).

Obviously this “We” you are talking about isn’t Catholics, as this stuff isn’t Catholic teaching.

The Catholic belief is that yes, Christ had a human nature that got hungry, thirsty, tired, sleepy etc. He also had a divine nature that was God.

Edited to add, it might be helpful if you stated your religion so we had some idea where you were coming from with this, without having to guess, especially since it is your first post and unlike the other non-Catholics in this thread who have been here a while, we do not have a past knowledge of what faith perspective you post from.

 

[fhansen]

The Bible and sacred tradition are necessarily of divine, supernatural, origin or else they’re worthless. And also, of necessity, is the fact that it’s impossible to prove all of their content empirically. We can only come to believe that they’re true. And this faith, also a gift of grace, makes them comprehensible and worthy of our further attention. Without that the Christian faith is just another story.

But we can begin by asking ourselves, what kind of knowledge would be truly relevant and important to us? Is a God who comes down to this earth as a man, revealing in His person the true nature of God, as existing, first of all, but then as good, patient, trustworthy, merciful, true, and kind: a God who is love and desires all to gain eternal life with Him, and who then confirms it all with miracles but most definitively by predicting and experiencing His own passion, death, and resurrection, worthy of our consideration? If we could gain the ability to actually believe in this, should it be the most valuable knowledge for humankind to have?

 

[PickyPicky]

e Bible and sacred tradition are necessarily of divine, supernatural, origin or else they’re worthless

Oooo that’s certainly not true. The Bible is clearly not worthless, whether of supernatural origin or not. The moral precepts that come from the Bible and from tradition are clearly not worthless, whether of supernatural origin or not.

They will have greater value if they are from God, obviously.