Is Jesus God?

[whomper]

"whomper:

Isn’t it our responsbility to spread the word to non-believers?

Short answer NO!

Somewhere, in the vast verses, I seem to recall an admonition that we are to preach the gospel. If not to the choir, than to whom?
"whomper:

Faith alone in our God isn’t enough. If they don’t believe in the Incarnate God, that’s a weakness in their faith.There

Don’t get offended but that sounds very Protestant

Not an insult when you understand who the original protestants were. But in today’s context, the Church says that if you don’t have all your ducks in a row, you can’t achieve salvation. We are tasked with learning all that is required of us, and then doing it.

One problem is discerning the requirements of God through Jesus Christ+ from those imposed by man.

Contrary to some beliefs, others can’t do it for us! This is one of the curses of Free Will!

 

[Mailman]

It is a mystery. Who can answer but GOD Himself?
“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” Saint Augustine

Hi! That’s a pretty nice saying except I think God does not agree with Augustine.

Here is part of God’s instruction to those who seek understanding: “Listen to what is wise and try to understand it. Yes, beg for knowledge (of course, from Him); plead for insight. Look for it as hard as you would for silver or some hidden treasure. If you do, you will know what it means to fear the LORD and you will succeed in learning about God. It is the LORD who gives wisdom; from him come knowledge and understanding” (Prov. 2:2-6).

God proved Augustine wrong because men believed in the trinity of the Godhead without understanding it. Now, after nearly 2,000 years of believing, they are still without understanding. To them, the trinity remains a big mystery.

God bless.

 

[Nickkname]

According to Matthew 20:17 and Rev 1:6, why does Jesus call his Father God if he himself is God? I know it is a Trinitarian answer but cannot explain it.

Because Jesus is the Son of the Father, the Second Person of the Trinity. Because He is the Son, He can call God His Father, while the rest of us have to call God our Father, because we are not His Sons. Yes we are the adopted sons of God, co-heirs with Jesus, but we are not gods or lords. So we call God our Father. But Jesus calls God His Father because he is the Son of God. Now, this where things get tricky: Jesus is God, God the Son, so calling God His Father would seem strange, no? But it is not! You see, Jesus isn’t calling God His Father as God but rather He is calling Him His Father as the Son - remember, He is the Second Person of the Trinity. So that’s why Jesus calls God His Father.

EDIT: To make it even clearer, there is only one God and in Him three Persons. This is the Trinity. Each Person is God, each Person shares in the One Divinity, yet each Person is distinct, not the same Person. So Jesus calling His Father Father is not God calling Himself God but rather the second Person of the Trinity calling the first Person of the Trinity Father: He is, in essense, acknowledging His Father as His Father and Himself as His Son. He is acknowleding His communion with the Father as the second Person of the Trinity. Jesus is the Son Incarnate.

 

[whomper]

So Jesus calling His Father Father is not God calling Himself God but rather the second Person of the Trinity calling the first Person of the Trinity Father

Maybe we can make this easier, from the human standpoint:
Jesus is the man-form of God, experiencing human emotions. It now is simple to understand why He would refer to God the Father as *His *Father.

It may have become easier for us to understand the Trinity, but it not so easy to help *others *understand it! We try to find good words and examples to make our point.

The early fathers were faced with the same problem. They made translations from several original languages into a common language, and had to find particular words to express particular thoughts. Over time, we have lost the ability to recognize some of those early words, and we have substituted other words, hoping for a simpler explanation but an accurate one. We have not always been successful.

 

[Coder]

According to Matthew 20:17 and Rev 1:6, why does Jesus call his Father God if he himself is God? I know it is a Trinitarian answer but cannot explain it.

True God from true God. He is God and also became fully man. Let us not forget that calling His Father God is the same as calling God His Father, and therefore as the only begotten Son, this in fact shows that He is God. You can see how the words can be arranged in order to alter the emphasis and thus to mislead.

 

[Nickkname]

Maybe we can make this easier, from the human standpoint:
Jesus is the man-form of God, experiencing human emotions. It now is simple to understand why He would refer to God the Father as *His *Father.

Uh, NO. Jesus is God Incarnate. He is the Son Incarnate. He is both God and Man, the divine and the human natures united in His Divine Person, i.e., the Second Person of the Trinity: the Son of the Father.

If man could God his Father, than we would be calling ourselves gods. Only Jesus can call God His Father because only He is the Son. He calls God His Father because He is His Father and Jesus is His Son.

The Son and the Father are one in Being, not two different gods or lords. There is only one God, and in Him there are three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son Incarnate. The Son calls the Father His Father. Therefore, Jesus calls God His Father.

 

[whomper]

Uh, NO. Jesus is God Incarnate.

No wonder Einstein concerned himself with something simpler, in the matter of Relativity!

I was speaking from the human standpoint.

What does “incarnate” mean?

I refered to Him as the man-form, not the man-identity, or “only a man”. He is the form chosen by God to achieve His purpose at that time, as God uses the Holy Spirit to achieve other purposes at other times.

After all, God **IS **God, and He can do **anything **in any way that He chooses. We can’t.

 

[RobGentner]

**Does Anyone Else have a headache? Ok Guys, pay attention.! The trinity is a mystery How the heck can you attempt to explain something you do not understand no matter how hard you try to wrap your minds around it.

IS JESUS GOD? YES! How do we know. FAITH! and faith alone!

NOW STOP THE "God the son talking to God the father, who is the son of the father who is the son of the father "****! **

God bless all you dumb butts!

I love you all

 

[RobGentner]

Hi! That’s a pretty nice saying except I think God does not agree with Augustine…

**Well Hello therel

I actually don’t think you have any idea what God agrees with, but I am glad you are willing to share what YOU think He does. You can take anything out of context and prove anything else, there are so many other bible quotes that can be quoted. To know what God thinks ask him! PRAY to him, and then be quiet and Listen!
To try to understand what is not understandable is foolish at the best.

“There is no use trying”, said Alice; “one can’t believe impossible things.” " I dare say you haven’t had much practice", said the Queen." When I was your age, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast." – Lewis Carroll**

I KNOW, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT
JESUS IS GOD!

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

I was, when will you realize, I wasn’t supporting Jahovah’s witness people, but linking to an article refuting them, because this is an area where Catholic Theologians must prove Jesus to save souls.

I find you arrogant, but will forgive you for your age, for not even seeing what I said, and actually sinning, by not giving me the benefit of the doubt, by checking your suspicians.

And, mocking people who believe otherwise is sinful in itself, when done as you did. Saying you want them away, unless you are an ex-Jahavahs witness, or have expirienced trauma, in which case it could be acceptable, there is no excuse for PUBLICALLY lambasting another faith’s people as irritating, just to get pleasure.

 

[RobGentner]

I was, when will you realize, I wasn’t supporting Jahovah’s witness people, but linking to an article refuting them, because this is an area where Catholic Theologians must prove Jesus to save souls.

Who are you talking to. If me, I never said you were supporting JWs I also never “attacked” you. You can believe what you want, I judge you not! :nope:

I find you arrogant, but will forgive you for your age, for not even seeing what I said, and actually sinning, by not giving me the benefit of the doubt, by checking your suspicians.

Marc says"Mirror Mirror on the wall who is the most arrogant of them all? Say ME! ME!" I forgive you because I am a Catholic and also because being older I rrealize somepeople don’t know what they are talking about! Correct isn’t arrogant. I give you the benefit of the doubt maybe you aren’t trying to attack me personally.

And, mocking people who believe otherwise is sinful in itself, when done as you did. Saying you want them away, unless you are an ex-Jahavahs witness, or have expirienced trauma, in which case it could be acceptable, there is no excuse for PUBLICALLY lambasting another faith’s people as irritating, just to get pleasure.

Who judges sin? Who doesn’t understand humor? Who doesn’t realize that JW do noty believe Jesus is GOD? My Brother Marc if you weren’t talking to me who were you talking to yourself? You didn’t quote anyone’s remarks.

Anyway I am on my was to Mass. I will pray for you and even add conversion of JWs in my special intentions.

God Bless you and lighten up my friend!

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

Thank you, that’s much better.

 

[whomper]

Let’s be careful to avoid making any of these points and arguments into personal attacks or charges. We don’t need to get personal, it’s how we’ve been doing things for thousands of years and it’s one of the reasons we have so much diversity in belief and practice.

Conflicts between ideals and theories are okay as long as it produces good discussion. When it diverts into personal attacks, it becomes destructive.

At Mass, pray for EVERYone who does not believe in the Trinity, for it is said that without belief in the Trinity, there can be no salvation. I do this by praying that the Holy Spirit graces each of us, at all times in our lives.

Truth be told, I get re-convinced of the presence in my own life every time I have a problem fixing my lawnmower and I ask for help! It always comes! Must be because it makes me avoid my Sailor talk!

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

Thank you, yes, that was my desire.

 

[narrow_path]

To me, it’s contradictory how the RCC teaches the importance of the belief of the Trinity, yet distorts this doctrine by labeling Mary as the “Mother of God.” True, Mary was the mother of Jesus, that is, his humanity. She was not the mother of His deity. When we talk about “God”, we are talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. To attribute the label “Mother of God” to Mary suggests that Mary is the mother of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Even most Catholics would reject this notion…yet, it remains dogma for the church because of a prior Pius IX ex cathedra pronouncement…or a tradition.

Yes, Jesus was and is God in human flesh. However, it is important to realize that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, 100% human and 100% divine. He simply does NOT encompass the full Godhead of the Trinity. So, by Catholics declaring that Mary is the “Mother of God,” they have at least distorted if not outright rejected the essential doctrine of the Trinity.

“You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.” - Jesus Christ (Mark 7:8)

 

[rinnie]

This is going to sound so stupid but on ewtn there was this show for kids. This is how the teacher did it. He drew a big circle and put God in the middle of it. Now on the outside of it he divided the circle into 3 equal parts. Now he wrote Father, Son, And Holy Spirit. Now he started on the left The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, keep going around. Now then he said now The Son is God, the Father is God The Holy SPirit is God. It is 3 Person made up of one. Boy I hope i did that right. But try it, some how some way it will make sense.

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

It is important to realize, but Jesus was Named in hebrew in the prophesies, He was God and with God.

Mary gave birth to the manifestation of God, her role was one of mother.

The statement is the only logical way to view it, dear human person.

We invented the Triune view of God, or at least in the old meaning of the word, we discovered it, with listening to God.

We don’t distaught it, but teach it…

as our ancestors, two thousand years ago did before us.

 

[whomper]

[Jesus] simply does NOT encompass the full Godhead of the Trinity.

While you made a good argument concerning the dogma about the “Mother of God” thing, you went too far with the above statement about Jesus. As Jesus IS/WAS God, there really is no differentiation over His depth and breadth. It is not for Man to attempt to define God’s expanse - it’s not necessary, it’s not our job to try it, and we can’t do it because it’s just too far out of our scope!

It’s hard enough to explain the true nature of the Trinity, and we shouldn’t get off-track so! Who is ***Man ***to try this??

 

[John_Y]

Yes, Jesus was and is God in human flesh. However, it is important to realize that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity, 100% human and 100% divine. He simply does NOT encompass the full Godhead of the Trinity. So, by Catholics declaring that Mary is the “Mother of God,” they have at least distorted if not outright rejected the essential doctrine of the Trinity.

From Catechism of the Catholic Church:

C. Para. 253: The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity” (Council of Constantinople II [553]: DS 421). The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God” (Council of Toledo XI [675]: DS 530:26). In the words of the Fourth Latern Council (1215): “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature” (Latern Council IV [1215]: DS 804).
Para. 254: The divine persons are not really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary” (Fides Damasi: DS 71). “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son” (Council of Toledo XI [675]: DS 530:25). They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds” (Latern Council IV (1215): DS 804). The divine Unity is Triune.

I believe that:

"…but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e., by nature one God”

would tend to show that each does encompass the full Godhead of the trinity in of themselves consubstantial. Also, we are not looking only at Papal or council edict here (although that would fall well within the 3 Ts of Text, Tradition and Teaching) but we also have strictly scriptural reference available as well:

Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Note the use of Name and not Names (inferring a singular and not plural entity).

2 Corinthians 13:13 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.
“one of the clearest trinitarian passages in the New Testament”

Again, as I think has been noted, we have clear indications of both Parallelism as well unity which is clearly well within our “understanding”, and I mean the term not necessarily the nature, of the mystery.

 

[whomper]

Para. 254: The divine persons are not really distinct from one another. “God is one but not solitary” (Fides Damasi: DS 71). “Father,” “Son,” “Holy Spirit” are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: “He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son” (Council of Toledo XI [675]: DS 530:25). They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds” (Latern Council IV (1215): DS 804). The divine Unity is Triune.

John Y, thanks for the quoted portions. I think the one above offers more of an insight than anything else which has been written here thus far; but I would really like a better offering of how the 3 persons are different in purpose. Yes, I already know what each did at the times reported in the Bible. But for the uninitiated, the redundancy of repetitions is confusing and needs clarification.

I think I’m asking for some explanation which avoids modalism? (I’m not sure if I stated this correctly, but it’s about as good as I can get it at this moment!)