Is Jesus God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter kathykiritta
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
“While you made a good argument concerning the dogma about the “Mother of God” thing, you went too far with the above statement about Jesus. As Jesus IS/WAS God, there really is no differentiation over His depth and breadth. It is not for Man to attempt to define God’s expanse - it’s not necessary, it’s not our job to try it, and we can’t do it because it’s just too far out of our scope! It’s hard enough to explain the true nature of the Trinity, and we shouldn’t get off-track so! Who is Man to try this??”

My intention is not to fully comprehend the concept of the Trinity, but rather to apprehend the Trinity through Scripture. Certainly there are different roles of the Godhead: The Father sends the Son, the Son prays to the Father, and the Spirit indwells all believers, for example. So, yes I believe that to fully comprehend the mystery of one God revealed in three Persons that are eternally distinct is beyond our abilities, being finite creatures. However, to understand that God (the Father) has sent his Son (Jesus) to save mankind and promises his Spirit if we believe surely is not beyond our scope…which is why Scripture makes this clear for us to understand.
 
My intention is not to fully comprehend the concept of the Trinity, but rather to apprehend the Trinity through Scripture.
An essential challenge here, especially in light of the fact that the Trinity specifically is not addressed or identified in the OT except for that one passage in John which seems to be omitted from most translations other than the KJV! If this were a common understanding at the time, it would’ve been dealt with more in scripture. But they didn’t understand it at the time, so our work at understanding it is more difficult.

I believe a fully-understood and accepted concept of the Trinity is necessary, in light of the people who can’t accept it at all because of the current explanations! If we can’t understand something, how can we persuade anyone that we’re right?! OUR faith isn’t enough for THEM!
I believe that to fully comprehend the mystery of one God revealed in three Persons that are eternally distinct is beyond our abilities, being finite creatures.
This would be so much easier to comprehend on the human level if it were not for the conflicts directed at modalism! Isn’t it interesting that the only real evidence we have of “modalism” and its unacceptance is from the writings of its detractors! I’m afraid that I can’t see the difference between the two concepts - modalism and Trinity, even from studying the applications of the latter in the scripture.

We received the Messiah as if He had never come before (He didn’t). Then, He gave us the Comforter as if it had never come before, or at least His words would lead us to that understanding.

But an understanding of the three Persons isn’t difficult, until someone disagrees with some sensible interpretation!

It’s almost as if the Leaders don’t want us to understand it, so that we’ll always have to rely on THEM to explain it! Sorta like “job protection”!

:eek:
 
Being the pedantic dilletante that I am,I just can’t help sharing this with ya’ll.
Duet 6:4
Mark12:29
1 Tim 2:5
Duet 32:6
Col 1:2
Matt 25:34
Luke 11:2
1 Cor 15:24
Eph4:6
1 Thess1:1
John20:17
Romans1:7
John1:1-14;8:58;20:28
Acts20:28
John14:16-17,26;16;7-14
Acts5:3-4;13:2-4;21:10-11
Did I leave anything out?
This is why we have THE BOOK!
:twocents:
 
Brothers and sisters,

I am going to purposely refrain from directly quoting scripture here. For, while the word was made flesh and the good news (gospel) is Christ, we are often admonished in at least Peter’s and Paul’s letters to remember the teachings and traditions that have been handed down to us.

In trying to discern the nature, intent or purpose of the trinity, we cannot rely on scripture alone. We must also lean heavily on the teachings of our early fathers as well as the Sacred Traditions (note capitals) that both those teachings as well as scripture have imparted to us throughout the centuries.

In the writings of Doctors of the church such as Augustine, Ignatius, Thomas & Teresa, we find the insight that illuminates what we can find in text, as I quoted in a previous post, as well as the philosophical and moral base to accept and even somewhat comprehend a concept of a consubstantial triune Godhead.

To attempt to ascribe a finite purpose to any or each of the three persons in the trinity is to limit each to be outside of their role as fully God within themselves. Rather, for human purposes alone, they are each “sent forth” in a role at a time within scripture but not in a limiting fashion that exempts from any other role.

The difficulty really lies within the limits of human language to articulate a concept that we cannot envisage in the physical world. That is, of course, triple and single existence in one. Except for the glowing example of a popsicle with three flavors, how else are we to really grasp the concept?
 
:confused:
Brothers and sisters,

I am going to purposely refrain from directly quoting scripture here. For, while the word was made flesh and the good news (gospel) is Christ, we are often admonished in at least Peter’s and Paul’s letters to remember the teachings and traditions that have been handed down to us.

In trying to discern the nature, intent or purpose of the trinity, we cannot rely on scripture alone. We must also lean heavily on the teachings of our early fathers as well as the Sacred Traditions (note capitals) that both those teachings as well as scripture have imparted to us throughout the centuries.

In the writings of Doctors of the church such as Augustine, Ignatius, Thomas & Teresa, we find the insight that illuminates what we can find in text, as I quoted in a previous post, as well as the philosophical and moral base to accept and even somewhat comprehend a concept of a consubstantial triune Godhead.

To attempt to ascribe a finite purpose to any or each of the three persons in the trinity is to limit each to be outside of their role as fully God within themselves. Rather, for human purposes alone, they are each “sent forth” in a role at a time within scripture but not in a limiting fashion that exempts from any other role.

The difficulty really lies within the limits of human language to articulate a concept that we cannot envisage in the physical world. That is, of course, triple and single existence in one. Except for the glowing example of a popsicle with three flavors, how else are we to really grasp the concept?
:confused: Yeah!What HE said!
I think:shrug:
 
According to Matthew 20:17 and Rev 1:6, why does Jesus call his Father God if he himself is God? I know it is a Trinitarian answer but cannot explain it.
He is ALSO God as they share the same nature. Jesus is however also the Son of Mary and shares in her Human Nature.

It’s like how we share the Genes of our human parents and so are “One”(in all sense of that word) with them, My Dad shares with me his nature, in both mental and physical senses, but So does my Mother as well. Cannot exercise “total control” over us because of our Free Will, but we share in their natures.

God the Father, passed on his divine nature to Jesus(So Jesus is also God), while Mary shared with him her Human Nature.

So therefore Jesus refers to God as “Father God” while also sharing in that Divinity.
 
He is ALSO God as they share the same nature. Jesus is however also the Son of Mary and shares in her Human Nature.

It’s like how we share the Genes of our human parents and so are “One”(in all sense of that word) with them, My Dad shares with me his nature, in both mental and physical senses, but So does my Mother as well. Cannot exercise “total control” over us because of our Free Will, but we share in their natures.

God the Father, passed on his divine nature to Jesus(So Jesus is also God), while Mary shared with him her Human Nature.

So therefore Jesus refers to God as “Father God” while also sharing in that Divinity.
**
Very Good:thumbsup:

The question is IS JESUS GOD? Not can we explain how Jesus is God? Your Answer was righ on and hit both of those points. **

**
My short answer was and always will be: ** ** Yes, Ya, Si, Jesus is GOD! **
 
:confused:

:confused: Yeah!What HE said!
I think:shrug:
How could you hope to understand with the limits of human language to articulate a concept that we cannot envisage in the physical world? 😃

A popsicle with three flavorswould be a nice treat!:extrahappy:

GOD BLESS! YES, JESUS IS GOD!
 
Of course,we also understand that we are created in HIS/THIER image…right.
FATHER SON HOLYSPIRIT
SOUL BODY SPIRIT
:hmmm:
Go figure…
 
Jesus was known to be God from earliest Christian times. Aside from biblcal references, Gary Habermas, in The Verdict of History, 1988 reveals thirty-nine ancient sources documenting the life of Jesus, including 100 facts concerning Jesus’ life, crucifixion, and resurrection.Twenty four of those sources, including seven secular and several early creeds of the church, concern the divine nature of Jesus. Hence, the doctrine that Jesus is God was present in the earliest church.

Outside the Bible, Jesus is also mentioned by his near-contemporaries. Secular writers (many hostile) point to Jesus’ existence, including the Roman writings of Tacitus, Seutonius, Thallus and Pliny, and Jewish writings of Josephus and the Talmud.
Suetonius (biographer of the first twelve Roman emperors) referred to Jesus and Christians in A.D. 120. Pliny the Younger, a governor of Bithinia, wrote to the Emperor Trajan in A.D. 112 asking advice on what to do with Christians. He claimed that they “were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god…”
 
I actually don’t think you have any idea what God agrees with, but I am glad you are willing to share what YOU think He does. You can take anything out of context and prove anything else, there are so many other bible quotes that can be quoted. To know what God thinks ask him! PRAY to him, and then be quiet and Listen!
To try to understand what is not understandable is foolish at the best.😛
Hi RobGentner! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, too. I still believe though that I know what God agrees with. For example, I know that He agrees with – my not worshipping other gods, my not taking His name in vain, my keeping His holy day, my not stealing, killing, telling lies, etc. I’m sure you would agree with me on that. We know it because that’s what God says in His Word, the Bible. Unless, He tells us what pleases Him, we will never know, will we?

You know, you’re right about Bible texts being taken out of context to prove a point. In fact, almost all professing Christians do that to defend their treasured beliefs. Who could be behind all this? Could it be Satan? He quoted Scripture when he tempted Christ. By the way, how do you think should the text I mentioned be properly understood?

About prayer, you’re right that we need to pray – and pray always. God says so in the Bible. But I don’t think God will answer us when we keep quiet and listen for His reply after we pray. How would He answer us? By some sign? If we’re trying to understand the trinity, a sign would not be enough. Or maybe an audible voice? But how would we know the voice does not come from the devil? And how many people have claimed to have heard God’s voice anyway? There’s one I know from the Catholic Church – a mother Eugenia. There’s another one not far from our place, but he’s oneness Pentecostal. He’s got his own followers now and he’s beaming his message through his TV and radio station. That’s just it; we wouldn’t know whose voice we’re hearing – if we ever get to hear one. If God does things that way and assuming the RCC is God’s church, the bishops of that church would have been enlightened on its trinity doctrine by now. It’s been nearly 2,000 years!

I believe God offered us a better and sure way to know Him and what His will is. Before Christ appeared, God communicated to His people through His prophets: “God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets” (Heb. 1:1). When Jesus appeared on earth it was Jesus who spoke for God: “In these days, hath spoken to us by his Son” (Heb. 1:2). Now, what about today, how does God communicate to us?

It is a tragedy that most professing Christians today do not fully grasp the significance of their acknowledgement of the Bible as the Word God. If the Bible is indeed the Word of God, then God speaks to us through the Bible! God does not have to speak to us now in an audible voice or signs because He has already spoken to us in His Word. God gives His answers to our prayers through the Bible. We talk to God in prayer and he answers us through His Word. All we need to do is ask Him, in prayer, for wisdom to understand His Word. God reveals Himself in the Bible.

It is worth noting that when Jesus answered questions on any subject that has already been written in the Jews’ Scripture (the OT), He ALWAYS quoted Scripture for His answer. He would begin His statements with, “It is written,” “Have you never read,” etc. Jesus showed us that God’s written Word is as good as His spoken answer because Scripture is the Word of God and “what the Scripture says is true forever” (John 10:35). If Jesus were to appear to us today to answer our questions, I believe He would answer us in the same way He did the Jews back then, QUOTING SCRIPTURE. Why? Because, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever” (Heb. 13:8).

We can learn from David how to pray for understanding: “Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart” (Psalm 119:33-34).

But obedience to God’s commandments is a condition for answered prayer: “…a good understanding have all they that do his commandments” (Psalm 111:10).

We need God’s Holy Spirit to understand His Word: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth” (John 16:13).

The Holy Spirit teaches us spiritual things (including the things about God, of course): “For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God. Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:11-13).

God bless.
 
Hi RobGentner! Thanks for sharing your thoughts, too. I still believe though that I know what God agrees with. For example, I know that He agrees with – my not worshipping other gods, my not taking His name in vain, my keeping His holy day, my not stealing, killing, telling lies, etc. I’m sure you would agree with me on that. We know it because that’s what God says in His Word, the Bible. Unless, He tells us what pleases Him, we will never know, will we?

You know, you’re right about Bible texts being taken out of context to prove a point. In fact, almost all professing Christians do that to defend their treasured beliefs. Who could be behind all this? Could it be Satan? He quoted Scripture when he tempted Christ. By the way, how do you think should the text I mentioned be properly understood?

About prayer, you’re right that we need to pray – and pray always. God says so in the Bible. But I don’t think God will answer us when we keep quiet and listen for His reply after we pray. How would He answer us? By some sign? If we’re trying to understand the trinity, a sign would not be enough. Or maybe an audible voice? But how would we know the voice does not come from the devil? And how many people have claimed to have heard God’s voice anyway? There’s one I know from the Catholic Church – a mother Eugenia. There’s another one not far from our place, but he’s oneness Pentecostal. He’s got his own followers now and he’s beaming his message through his TV and radio station. That’s just it; we wouldn’t know whose voice we’re hearing – if we ever get to hear one. If God does things that way and assuming the RCC is God’s church, the bishops of that church would have been enlightened on its trinity doctrine by now. It’s been nearly 2,000 years!

I believe God offered us a better and sure way to know Him and what His will is. Before Christ appeared, God communicated to His people through His prophets: “God, who, at sundry times and in divers manners, spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets” (Heb. 1:1). When Jesus appeared on earth it was Jesus who spoke for God: “In these days, hath spoken to us by his Son” (Heb. 1:2). Now, what about today, how does God communicate to us?

It is a tragedy that most professing Christians today do not fully grasp the significance of their acknowledgement of the Bible as the Word God. If the Bible is indeed the Word of God, then God speaks to us through the Bible! God does not have to speak to us now in an audible voice or signs because He has already spoken to us in His Word. God gives His answers to our prayers through the Bible. We talk to God in prayer and he answers us through His Word. All we need to do is ask Him, in prayer, for wisdom to understand His Word. God reveals Himself in the Bible.

It is worth noting that when Jesus answered questions on any subject that has already been written in the Jews’ Scripture (the OT), He ALWAYS quoted Scripture for His answer. He would begin His statements with, “It is written,” “Have you never read,” etc. Jesus showed us that God’s written Word is as good as His spoken answer because Scripture is the Word of God and “what the Scripture says is true forever” (John 10:35). If Jesus were to appear to us today to answer our questions, I believe He would answer us in the same way He did the Jews back then, QUOTING SCRIPTURE. Why? Because, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever” (Heb. 13:8).

We can learn from David how to pray for understanding: “Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart” (Psalm 119:33-34).

But obedience to God’s commandments is a condition for answered prayer: “…a good understanding have all they that do his commandments” (Psalm 111:10).

We need God’s Holy Spirit to understand His Word: “But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth” (John 16:13).

The Holy Spirit teaches us spiritual things (including the things about God, of course): “For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God, no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. Now, we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God: that we may know the things that are given us from God. Which things also we speak: not in the learned words of human wisdom, but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:11-13).

God bless.
Excellent post! 👍 If you would agree that the Roman Catholic church was the way that God choces to tell us what He wants, you would be almost 100% correct. I also still agree that you don’t know what God agrees with. As you stated it you understand what God "doesn’t agree with. I also agree that He doesn’t agree with them. That being said doesn’t mean that you can put words into God’s mouth. Your god maybe, but my God would spit them out. And to twist what He wants us to know to make it say what you want said is a little like making a false God, isn’t it? :confused:

God loves us all! Bless You! :signofcross:
 
Now, what about today, how does God communicate to us?
George Burns, maybe?

Seriously, I’ve often wondered why God, who is all-powerful and can do whatever He wants to do, hasn’t chosen a more powerful, more simply understood way of telling us what He wants us to know! Writing on tablets has been copied, so we’ll never now be sure that it’s He who’s writing; too many burning bushes all over the place. Besides, He used those methods already, so should we expect something new? Or maybe He’s told us already, and we know that He doesn’t like to repeat Himself.

For me, the answer “be still, and know”…

:eek:
 
And exactly which nature of the Divinity would you designate as HOT AIR?
Since you’re speaking in a modern context, no element of the trinity would be the correct answer. But, I can think of several humans right off the bat who could fill this bill! And one or two of them probably consider themselves simply divine!

:rolleyes:
 
**Originally Posted by Mailman
Now, what about today, how does God communicate to us? **
George Burns, maybe?

Seriously, I’ve often wondered why God, who is all-powerful and can do whatever He wants to do, hasn’t chosen a more powerful, more simply understood way of telling us what He wants us to know! Writing on tablets has been copied, so we’ll never now be sure that it’s He who’s writing; too many burning bushes all over the place. Besides, He used those methods already, so should we expect something new? Or maybe He’s told us already, and we know that He doesn’t like to repeat Himself.

For me, the answer “be still, and know”…

:eek:
**
Real short answer that should make sense to all: We are the Body of Christ.(The Church and the members) God talks to us through being a part of us. When we get tangled up in our problems, like whomper said Be still. God wants us to be still so He can untangle the knots.

Live simply, Love generously, and Care deeply, Speak kindly … Leave the rest to God.

God Bless**
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top