Is Jesus God?

[NotWorthy]

**Who said that the Holy Spirit saw to that, that Jesus wasn’t just a man, the Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote the gospels? Not too convincing. **Except that these Gentiles, as well as their Jewish Christian brothers, went to their graves defending this doctrine. This is different from the Jonestown Kool-Aid-Gate, my brother, so don’t insult me with that analogy. These Christians had weapons to their heads, but they weren’t held to the heads in order to force suicide. They were held to their heads to convince the martyrs to renounce their faith. Our brothers didn’t back down.

**Not as an excuse, but what I meant for Christians thinking that we are stupid is when they pick up a Jew and preach to the Jews that he was the son of God with a woman, as if Judaism is a synonym with Greek Mythology. **And yet the entire early Church was Jewish Converts. All the leadership.

And to admit that you misunderstood me would make of you less intelligent than I have you to be. Therefore, I consider - not your faith - but the doctrine of a man-god in a Jew as a cop-out.

 

[NotWorthy]

**You mention above that Jesus did that to the money changers because they were taking advantage of the pilgrims to make a profit. Tell me, would you work for no profit? That was their way to make a living. See what I mean by “cop-out” now? **No. There’s profit… and then there’s raking across the coals. Anias had a virtual monopoly on the sacrifices. Its one of the ways he was able to finance his power base. Do you think it was a coincidence that, after his highly priestly reign, that his son-in-law, and several of his sons were the next Roman chosen high priest.

**And the Pharisees were not the ones who rendered animals cosher or not cosher for sacrifice but the Levites. You guys like to blame Pharisees everywhere, unconsciously that the reason was due to the Pauline grudge for the reason that the Pharisees never allowed him to build a church in Israeli soil throughout his life. Jesus never chased Pharisees or vice-versa, considering that Jesus was of the line of Pharisees.

“If they don’t open their eyes to the Word.” What Word are you talking about, the only Scriptures that Jesus used to handle and refer to as the Word of God? What makes you think we don’t have our eyes open to it? That’s the same Scripture we still have. Of course you mean to open our eyes to the writing of Hellenistic Gentiles who wrote about Jesus 50+ years after Jesus had been gone and with very poor knowledge of what is to be Jewish. That to be blinded to is a virtue.**

The lack of open eyes is proved by the fact that your still Jews.

 

[joannazenobia]

Do you know what I compare believing by faith to? A Roulette game. Too risky. The faithful of Jim Jones tried it and almost a thousand went to their death stupidly. Knowledge and Reason have proved much better. Disraeli, a former British Prime Minister once said that where faith begins, knowledge ends. And for lack of knowledge, Hosea said that my People perish. (Hosea 4:6) Think it through. You won’t regret.

For me personally, I have not found that to be the case. For me, my faith helped shape my understanding of the world esepecially as I was going through grade school. In fact in high school I read two magazines, Bop and Discover Science magazine, all the while going through confirmation. I couldn’t read enough about the universe, science, biology…my brain was like a sponge, I hungered for more…and the more I learned the more my faith grew.

Furthermore, I just don’t jump on the bandwagon and follow anyone “Stupidly”. Jesus’s disciples didn’t follow him “stupidly” they kept asking for proof!

Faith to me isn’t a Pot at the end of the rainbow, “Yippie!! I found it, I have it. Its mine forever”.

Faith to me is like a soldier in battle. Everyday, I polish my shield, raise my sword, and give my battlecry. It’s war. I fight doubt everyday. You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t.

I believe that Faith+Knowledge= Wisdom. See, Knowledge is just one part of the equation.

On the other hand, I am surrounded by people with 5 to 10 credentials yet have so little real world “Wisdom” and common sense…its really sad.

For me personally…I’d rather have Wisdom, vs. Knowledge any day. In my life and that of others I have encountered those who have relied solely on Knowledge and Reason…they end up some of the most miserable people.

I could be wrong. I am not a theologian. But my interpretation of Hosea is a little different. That was God’s anger against the priests for leading people away from God’s Law. “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge”. Meaning it was the responsibility of the priests to teach God’s law correctly to the people of Isreal and that was why sin was allowed to grow, much like it is today.

Lack of God’s knowledge…the “new and everlasting covenant” that Jesus made over 2000ys ago with the people, is causing people to fall to sin today. Only through faith, meditation, and devotion, can it be restored.
Not just “knowledge” of anything. Look at how much knowledge and information we have…has it really helped our world at all? Has it really?

 

[Jason_1977]

Wow. OK, I’m disappointed with my fellow catholics and even the protestants on this one. Am I going to be the first to bring up the trinity>? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit? Seriously, it’s one word, NOT in the bible “trinity”, yet we ALL seem to agree on that concept. AAAAAND I’m spent. This forum place should put me on the pay roll! Perhaps I’d be a bit more charming, LOL!

 

[Ben_Masada]

Well Ben, I won’t hold you to it. Matthew Mark and John were Jewish. Luke was probably from Antioch and thought to be Greek (Hellenistic Gentile). You got 1 out of four.

Some Christian quarters down the centuries have interpreted the New Testament as a justification for anti-semetism, and even the behaviour of SOME crazy Catholics against Jews is rather embarrassing, but I don’t think there are any formal Church teachings that encourage this grave sin, and if I am wrong, tell me what encyclical or papal bull in which it occurs. Built in scriptural anti-semitism is a complicated issue and should be examined with honesty.

The Gospel of John has been described both as the most Jewish and the most anti- Jewish of the Gospels. This duality is reflected in the present work where, starting by looking at the Jewish liturgical year, the author seeks to suggest causes for the conflict as well as offering ways of overcoming any resulting sense of anti-semitism.
http://www.loyolapress.com/judaism-and-the-jews-in-the-gospel-of-john.htm

**

Shalom

**Shalom Kepha, I understand your opinion that the gospel writers were Jewish, because first, you are not Jewish; therefore, you don’t know very much about Judaism and Jewish life. And second, I know how important is for Christians that the writers of the NT should be Jewish.

I am sorry to have to rain on your parade, but none of them was Jewish. Not only very poor knowledge of what being Jewish is but also that no Jew would write about Hellenistic
stuff in connection with Judaism as if Greek Mythology could happen also in the Monotheistic religion of Israel.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Except that these Gentiles, as well as their Jewish Christian brothers, went to their graves defending this doctrine. This is different from the Jonestown Kool-Aid-Gate, my brother, so don’t insult me with that analogy. These Christians had weapons to their heads, but they weren’t held to the heads in order to force suicide. They were held to their heads to convince the martyrs to renounce their faith. Our brothers didn’t back down.

And yet the entire early Church was Jewish Converts. All the leadership.

**Sorry NotWorthy, but there are no Jewish-Christian brothers. They are either Jewish brothers or Christian brothers. Hyphenated Jews remind me of the Jews-for-Baal of the time of Elijah. Those and these only straddle the issue.(I Kings 18:21)

Regarding the Christians you refer to, as having weapons held to their heads to convince them to renounce their faith, I see absolutely no difference from the hundreds of Baha’is who, likewise, had weapons held to their heads at the time of the Ayatolla khomeni in Iran to renounce their faith, and all died without recanting. Religious ideals, NotWorthy; this can take many to their death heroically without meaning at all that they have a monopoly on the Truth.

And for the “entire” early Church to be of Jewish converts, that’s a gross exaggeration. All the leadership! Now, you have gone way too far. Even Paul, the founder of Christianity had quit being Jewish to become the leader of the Church.

I do accept that the early members of the Church were made out of former Jews because the converts of the Nazarenes would become Jewish as they were made. (Acts 21:20) Then, Paul would invade the Nazarene synagogues and rob them of their converts who would turn back into being Gentiles again. That’s how the disciples of the Nazarenes would start being called Christians, starting with Antioch. (Acts 11:26)**

 

[Ben_Masada]

For me personally, I have not found that to be the case. For me, my faith helped shape my understanding of the world esepecially as I was going through grade school. In fact in high school I read two magazines, Bop and Discover Science magazine, all the while going through confirmation. I couldn’t read enough about the universe, science, biology…my brain was like a sponge, I hungered for more…and the more I learned the more my faith grew.

Furthermore, I just don’t jump on the bandwagon and follow anyone “Stupidly”. Jesus’s disciples didn’t follow him “stupidly” they kept asking for proof!

Faith to me isn’t a Pot at the end of the rainbow, “Yippie!! I found it, I have it. Its mine forever”.

Faith to me is like a soldier in battle. Everyday, I polish my shield, raise my sword, and give my battlecry. It’s war. I fight doubt everyday. You can’t call yourself a Christian if you don’t.

I believe that Faith+Knowledge= Wisdom. See, Knowledge is just one part of the equation.

On the other hand, I am surrounded by people with 5 to 10 credentials yet have so little real world “Wisdom” and common sense…its really sad.

For me personally…I’d rather have Wisdom, vs. Knowledge any day. In my life and that of others I have encountered those who have relied solely on Knowledge and Reason…they end up some of the most miserable people.

I could be wrong. I am not a theologian. But my interpretation of Hosea is a little different. That was God’s anger against the priests for leading people away from God’s Law. “My people are destroyed from lack of knowledge”. Meaning it was the responsibility of the priests to teach God’s law correctly to the people of Isreal and that was why sin was allowed to grow, much like it is today.

Lack of God’s knowledge…the “new and everlasting covenant” that Jesus made over 2000ys ago with the people, is causing people to fall to sin today. Only through faith, meditation, and devotion, can it be restored.
Not just “knowledge” of anything. Look at how much knowledge and information we have…has it really helped our world at all? Has it really?

**There is a saying in Portuguese that goes thus, “Me engana que eu gosto.” It means,
“I don’t have to understand what you say; just tell me, because I am ready to believe.” That’s not for this purpose that God created man. These are those who live by faith.

Joannazenobia, by wisdom is a house built, by understanding is it made firm; and by knowledge are its rooms filled with every precious and pleasing possession. A wise man is more powerful than a strong man, and a man of knowledge than a man of might. (Prov. 24:3-5) **

 

[Ben_Masada]

Wow. OK, I’m disappointed with my fellow catholics and even the protestants on this one. Am I going to be the first to bring up the trinity>? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit? Seriously, it’s one word, NOT in the bible “trinity”, yet we ALL seem to agree on that concept. AAAAAND I’m spent. This forum place should put me on the pay roll! Perhaps I’d be a bit more charming, LOL!

Perhaps Zeus will put you in his payroll, but you are going to have to bring your message to the Olympian Pantheon of Greek mythologies. Good luck!

 

[NotWorthy]

**Sorry NotWorthy, but there are no Jewish-Christian brothers. They are either Jewish brothers or Christian brothers. Hyphenated Jews remind me of the Jews-for-Baal of the time of Elijah. Those and these only straddle the issue.(I Kings 18:21)

Regarding the Christians you refer to, as having weapons held to their heads to convince them to renounce their faith, I see absolutely no difference from the hundreds of Baha’is who, likewise, had weapons held to their heads at the time of the Ayatolla khomeni in Iran to renounce their faith, and all died without recanting. Religious ideals, NotWorthy; this can take many to their death heroically without meaning at all that they have a monopoly on the Truth.

And for the “entire” early Church to be of Jewish converts, that’s a gross exaggeration. All the leadership! Now, you have gone way too far. Even Paul, the founder of Christianity had quit being Jewish to become the leader of the Church.

I do accept that the early members of the Church were made out of former Jews because the converts of the Nazarenes would become Jewish as they were made. (Acts 21:20) Then, Paul would invade the Nazarene synagogues and rob them of their converts who would turn back into being Gentiles again. That’s how the disciples of the Nazarenes would start being called Christians, starting with Antioch. (Acts 11:26)**

All right, Mr. Nitpicky, would you prefer that I call them Christian converts from the Jewish Faith. Evidently the term is all right for the rest of the world, but you seem to have a problem with it.

Sorry, I didn’t know.

But you’re right, the name is lacking. I prefer to call them Jews who have reached their fulfillment.

 

[JP_Marat]

Wow. OK, I’m disappointed with my fellow catholics and even the protestants on this one. Am I going to be the first to bring up the trinity>? God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit? Seriously, it’s one word, NOT in the bible “trinity”, yet we ALL seem to agree on that concept. AAAAAND I’m spent. This forum place should put me on the pay roll! Perhaps I’d be a bit more charming, LOL!

RESPONSE:

No. Not everyone agrees on the existence of a “Trinity.” The Trinity seems to have been an explanation developed to get around having two divine persons which would be contrary to scripture. “Hear O Israel, the Lord is One.”

Matthew 28:19 is usually cited as the scriptural proof for the existence of a Trinity . However, the reference to a Trinity in a baptismal formula appears to ahve been added to Matthew later, much as the 1 John 5:7 reference to the Trinity.

Our earliest copies of Matthew date from 325 AD. However, the early Church historian Eusebius had earlier copies in his library. His pre-Nicea writings have 18 (or more) quotations of Matthew’s chapter 28 in the form:

“Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.”

Acts of the Apostles, describing the original practices of Jesus immediate followers, describes baptism four times always in the name of Jesus alone.

If there was a general belief in the Trinity prior to the Council of Nicea, why was this council necessary in the first place?

 

[Jason_1977]

yyyyyyyyyyyep!!!

 

[JesuisSean]

The question is answered if you look toward the truth.

The after-life side of reality truly exists, thus if you look toward the truth, then you will see the other side as well.

You will understand everything, thus questions such as " Is Jesus God? " become trivialities of the past, since you are now thinking in dimensions that mankind is not even aware of.

Once done, you become not only the most educated man on this planet, but also become the most educated soul ever.

 

[JP_Marat]

RESPONSE

Lets start at the beginning.

Question 1: How do you demonstrate that the after life exists?

Question 2: Assuming that you can prove the after-life exists, how does this demonstrate the Jesus is divine?

Question 3. Any chance that these “new demensions” are hallucinatory experiences?

The question is answered if you look toward the truth.

The after-life side of reality truly exists, thus if you look toward the truth, then you will see the other side as well.

You will understand everything, thus questions such as " Is Jesus God? " become trivialities of the past, since you are now thinking in dimensions that mankind is not even aware of.

Once done, you become not only the most educated man on this planet, but also become the most educated soul ever.

 

[Ben_Masada]

All right, Mr. Nitpicky, would you prefer that I call them Christian converts from the Jewish Faith. Evidently the term is all right for the rest of the world, but you seem to have a problem with it.

Sorry, I didn’t know.

But you’re right, the name is lacking. I prefer to call them Jews who have reached their fulfillment.

**I would call them former Jews who have apostated from Judaism and become Christians. You know, like Paul. **

 

[NotWorthy]

**I would call them former Jews who have apostated from Judaism and become Christians. You know, like Paul. **

That’s funny.

I call them “fulfilled Jews”.
Or “Jews who didn’t miss the boat”.
Or “Jewish Christians”.

Tu-may-toe, Tu-mah-toe, eh?

 

[Ben_Masada]

yyyyyyyyyyyep!!!

Noooooooooooooope!!! Jesus was a man, and a man cannot be god. Unless he was a Greek man. Jesus was Jewish. There is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
Capicci?

 

[Canto]

Noooooooooooooope!!! Jesus was a man, and a man cannot be god. Unless he was a Greek man. Jesus was Jewish. There is no such a thing as Greek Mythology in Judaism.
Capicci?

What does Greek mythology have to do with anything?
Jesus was Jewish but instituted the Catholic Church.

God in human form.c.f. John ch1

“In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh.”

 

[JP_Marat]

What does Greek mythology have to do with anything?
Jesus was Jewish but instituted the Catholic Church.

God in human form.c.f. John ch1

“In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God… and the Word became flesh.”

RESPONSE:

You’ll only find references to Jesus being God in John’s Gospel written 95 - 110 AD. The sentence you quote was evidently lifted from a earlier text which has gnostic overtones. Incidentally, the correct translation may be:

“In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god… and the Word became flesh.”

This would be the creator god, the Demiurge or Logos. The concept was used by Plato, Philo of Alexandria, and later taken up by Paul (“The first born of all creation”) and later by John. It would appeal to a Greek readership. But this was a created god.

 

[zapaleda]

Who sees me sees the Father also.

Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4; (John 14:14)
Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48

 

[SimonArizona]

Who sees me sees the Father also.

Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4; (John 14:14)
Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48

You are going to need more than that if you are going to go up against Arius.