Is Jesus God?

[ready]

Priest can only forgive sins because Jesus gave them this power.

You’re right. Priest can forgive mortal sins only because Jesus gave them this power to do so in His Name. I was going to defend this point earlier, but I see there are still people without this understanding.

 

[Steven_John]

Priest can **only **forgive sins because Jesus gave them this power.

You’re right. Priest can forgive mortal sins only because Jesus gave them this power to do so in His Name.

Father forgive them for they see no what the do by changing Your word.

Brothers and Sisters say as you say for you have free will but you are cutting yourselves deep.

IMO You imply that we should not pray the way Yeshua (pbwh) taught he taught** us** to forgive sin and to pray to the Father not just ordained priests.

If you are circumcised then you are a priests.

Matthew 6:14 (New Living Translation)

14 “If you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly Father will forgive you.

 

[adrift]

Father forgive them for they see no what the do by changing Your word.

Brothers and Sisters say as you say for you have free will but you are cutting yourselves deep.

IMO You imply that we should not pray the way Yeshua (pbwh) taught he taught** us** to forgive sin and to pray to the Father not just ordained priests.

If you are circumcised then you are a priests.

Matthew 6:14 (New Living Translation)

Your mixing apple and organges. See my earlier post for the scripture to back this up.

 

[JP_Marat]

JP Marat;5749091:

Jesus IS God that is why He could forgive sins.

RESPONSE:

No. As with priests, God forgives the sin. Not Jesus.

 

[JP_Marat]

You’re right. Priest can forgive mortal sins only because Jesus gave them this power to do so in His Name. I was going to defend this point earlier, but I see there are still people without this understanding.

RESPONSE:

You almost have it right. Priest can forgive mortal sins only because God gave them this power to do so. Or maybe not.

 

[adrift]

RESPONSE

Other than in John’s Gospel, written between 95 and 110 AD, where does Jesus say he was God?

Why does it have to be any place else?

The claim that Jesus was divine, not just the messiah, originated about 85 AD.
Prior to this, Jesus’ immediate followers remained very observant Temple worshipping Jews (see Acts).

Not true. Thomas acknowledged Jesus as being God before He ascended into heaven.

Obviously, the Jews would have never have allowed them to if they had claimed Jesus was himself divine. When they began to claim this, they were anathamatized from the Jewish synagogues as apostates. (See John’s Gospel)

The Jews ordered them not to talk about Jesus see Acts.

"And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. "(Luke 18:19)

This prove what?

From the New American Bible (USCCB) Introduction to Hebrews:

“Among the reasons why **Pauline authorship has been abandoned **are the great difference of vocabulary and style between Hebrews and Paul’s letters, the alternation of doctrinal teaching with moral exhortation, the different manner of citing the Old Testament, and the resemblance between the thought of Hebrews and that of Alexandrian Judaism. The Greek of the letter is in many ways the best in the New Testament.”

There is much debate regarding the notes in the NAB and their validity. I for one do not have a high regard for them. Compare what their notes say as compared to the Encylopedia. The NAB pales in comparison.

 

[Ben_Masada]

How do you know God is one? Who told you?

And just so you know, Catholics believe that God is one.

Five thousand years of Jewish Monotheism. Besides, Jesus himself declared that God is absolutely One and the Only Lord. Read Mark 12:29. Then, he added that God is pure Spirit. Incorporeal therefore. Read John 4:24. No wonder he said that you Gentiles do not
understand what you worship, while we Jews understand what we worship. (John 4:23)
That’s the reason, he continued, that salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22) If your pride won’t allow you to get this message from me, get it from Jesus himself, and commit it to memory.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben:

On a side note: I was glad to see that SOMEONE had the Cajones to speak up at the UN last week and tell it like it is!!! Mr. Netanyahu (?) showed us that sometimes a spade needs to be called a spade.

It was fantastic, wasn’t it? I listened to all of it. And do you know something NotWorthy? It was surprising to me to see that his speech came out to be that way so double-edge-sharped-sword. Many of us here thought he would come down to his knees before the mighty Obama; but he surprised us all. “Don’t you have shame?” Do you remember? I never thought he would ask such an aggressive albeit rhetoric question.
After his speech, even those of the left here were deeply impressed by the Man.

 

[Canto]

Five thousand years of Jewish Monotheism. Besides, Jesus himself declared that God is absolutely One and the Only Lord. Read Mark 12:29. Then, he added that God is pure Spirit. Incorporeal therefore. Read John 4:24. No wonder he said that you Gentiles do not
understand what you worship, while we Jews understand what we worship. (John 4:23)
That’s the reason, he continued, that salvation is from the Jews. (John 4:22) If your pride won’t allow you to get this message from me, get it from Jesus himself, and commit it to memory.

And how do you know that 5 thousand years is correct? Faith?

John 4
22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know. For salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.
24 God is a spirit: and they that adore him must adore him in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman saith to him: I know that the Messiah cometh (who is called Christ): therefore, when he is come, he will tell us all things.
26 Jesus saith to her: **I am **he, **who am **speaking with thee.

from various commentaries

In the controversy between the Jews and Samaritans,the Samaritans worshiped, but knew not what they worshiped, because they rejected the prophets who would have directed them.

Salvation is of the Jews - So spake all the prophets, that the Saviour should arise out of the Jewish nation: and that from thence the knowledge of him should spread to all nations under heaven.

Christ justly preferred the Jewish worship before the Samaritan, yet here he speaks of the former as soon to be done away. God was about to be revealed as the Father of all believers in every nation.

 

[NotWorthy]

It was fantastic, wasn’t it? I listened to all of it. And do you know something NotWorthy? It was surprising to me to see that his speech came out to be that way so double-edge-sharped-sword. Many of us here thought he would come down to his knees before the mighty Obama; but he surprised us all. “Don’t you have shame?” Do you remember? I never thought he would ask such an aggressive albeit rhetoric question.
After his speech, even those of the left here were deeply impressed by the Man.

And there were MANY over here that were equally proud!

 

[JP_Marat]

adrift posted:

Originally Posted by JP Marat

Other than in John’s Gospel, written between 95 and 110 AD, where does Jesus say he was God?

Why does it have to be any place else? <<<

RESPONSE:

Because Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Acts report otherwise.

Quote:
The claim that Jesus was divine, not just the messiah, originated about 85 AD.
Prior to this, Jesus’ immediate followers remained very observant Temple worshipping Jews (see Acts).

Not true. Thomas acknowledged Jesus as being God before He ascended into heaven.<<

RESPONSE:

I thibnk you will also find that in John’s Gospel written between 95 and 110 AD. Not in any of the earlier Gospels.

Quote:
Obviously, the Jews would have never have allowed them to if they had claimed Jesus was himself divine. When they began to claim this, they were anathamatized from the Jewish synagogues as apostates. (See John’s Gospel)

The Jews ordered them not to talk about Jesus see Acts.<<

RESPONSE:

They had not yet began to claim Jesus was divine.

Quote:
"And Jesus said to him: Why dost thou call me good? None is good but God alone. "(Luke 18:19)

This prove what? <<

RESPONSE:

That Jesus did not condiser himself to be GOD, obviously.

Quote:
From the New American Bible (USCCB) Introduction to Hebrews:

“Among the reasons why Pauline authorship has been abandoned are the great difference of vocabulary and style between Hebrews and Paul’s letters, the alternation of doctrinal teaching with moral exhortation, the different manner of citing the Old Testament, and the resemblance between the thought of Hebrews and that of Alexandrian Judaism. The Greek of the letter is in many ways the best in the New Testament.”

There is much debate regarding the notes in the NAB and their validity. I for one do not have a high regard for them. Compare what their notes say as compared to the Encylopedia. The NAB pales in comparison. <<

RESPONSE:

The American bishop’s Confreternity for Christian Doctrine is the authority behind the NAB, it has the imprimatur, the Catholic University of America and the Catholic Biblical society produced it, and Pope Paul VI wrote the foreword approving it.

I’m sorry you don’t agree with them.

Please evidence the “debate” you are claiming. Or can we dismiss your claim as an assertion without evidence?

 

[ready]

Father forgive them for they see no what the do by changing Your word.

Brothers and Sisters say as you say for you have free will but you are cutting yourselves deep.

IMO You imply that we should not pray the way Yeshua (pbwh) taught he taught** us** to forgive sin and to pray to the Father not just ordained priests.

If you are circumcised then you are a priests.

Matthew 6:14 (New Living Translation)

Lay people can forgive another person’s sins but not the same way a priest does. If my Catholic friend kills my father and says they are sorry for that sin I can forgive them and say "I forgive you, " but they would still be culpable in God’s eye of the murder unless they confess their sin to God. This murder is not only an offense against me and other people, but against God and his body, the Church.

 

[NotWorthy]

Lay people can forgive another person’s sins but not the same way a priest does. If my Catholic friend kills my father and says they are sorry for that sin I can forgive them and say "I forgive you, " but they would still be culpable in God’s eye of the murder unless they confess their sin to God. This murder is not only an offense against me and other people, but against God and his body, the Church.

Not only this, but look at the negative (or not forgiving someone) in each case.

In the message given to the masses, not forgiving someone will bring condemnation upon oneself.

In the message given only to the Apostles in John, not forgiving someone is a divinely given authority.

 

[ready]

Not only this, but look at the negative (or not forgiving someone) in each case.

In the message given to the masses, not forgiving someone will bring condemnation upon oneself.

In the message given only to the Apostles in John, not forgiving someone is a divinely given authority.

Yes.

 

[Steven_John]

Lay people can forgive another person’s sins but not the same way a priest does. If my Catholic friend kills my father and says they are sorry for that sin I can forgive them and say "I forgive you, " but they would still be culpable in God’s eye of the murder unless they confess their sin to God. This murder is not only an offense against me and other people, but against God and his body, the Church.

Hi Ready,
i am really grateful for your explanation in regards to my post.
Your sharing has made it real easy for me to see where you are coming from.

For me i believe if a man wrongs another and acknowledges it and is truly repentant than My Father will show him mercy as the sinner does to others.
This is without necessity of a third party IE priest.

I have encouraged my kids to go to confession with priests when they were lacking courage to apologise to the person they offended on the basis that a priest should be non judgemental and always show the same compassion and understanding Yeshua (pbwh) does.

But i have sternly warned them to grow from the experience to be able to tell anyone they have wronged them. When we show our humanity to each other we offer the best witness to living in My Fathers love.

My Father willing this will encourage the other person to do the same to those they have wronged.

IMO it is reasonable to say the offence is against the church and we know it has a spirit but life is about living in The Spirit not the spirit of the church. By living in His spirit we strengthen the spirit of the church that encourages other to come to Him.

As for being an offence against My Father of course it is He is just, Yeshua (pbwh) came that we may have one on one relationship with Him even though we are sinners. For most of us this means we have had much conversation with Our Father in regards to our sin before and after our attempt to make peace with the one we offended.

My Father sees mercy b4 justice, always, Yeshua (pbwh) revealed this word in flesh.

Placing Priests between us (mature believers) and Our Father is not the best thing, does not say its a bad thing just not the best, Yeshua (pbwh) corrected Sadducees and Pharisees for lording over peoples relationship with My Father.

B blessed B guided

 

[NotWorthy]

Placing Priests between us (mature believers) and Our Father is not the best thing, does not say its a bad thing just not the best, Yeshua (pbwh) corrected Sadducees and Pharisees for lording over peoples relationship with My Father.

B blessed B guided

Well, at the risk of repeating a subject I’m taking part in on another thread, “What Authority did Jesus give the Apostles in John 20:21-23”? And why did Jesus give this authority to the Apostles?

This is at least the 2nd occasion of an authority given to the Apostles that they could potentially “lord over people’s relationship with the Father”, as the Pharisees and Sadducess did, and yet He still gave these Authorities to the Apostles.

 

[adrift]

adrift posted:

Originally Posted by JP Marat

I already have cites a source. You didn’t post this from the NAB

As early as the end of the second century, the church of Alexandria in Egypt accepted Hebrews as a letter of Paul, and that became the view commonly held in the East. Pauline authorship was contested in the West into the fourth century, but then accepted. In the sixteenth century, doubts about that position were again raised, and the modern consensus is that the letter was not written by Paul. There is, however, no widespread agreement on any of the other suggested authors, e.g., Barnabas, Apollos, or Prisc(ill)a and Aquila. The document itself has no statement about its author.

You have a misunderstanding of what an imprimatur is. It does not mean that the one granting it agrees with opinion that are expressed.

 

[Steven_John]

Well, at the risk of repeating a subject I’m taking part in on another thread, “What Authority did Jesus give the Apostles in John 20:21-23”? And why did Jesus give this authority to the Apostles?

This is at least the 2nd occasion of an authority given to the Apostles that they could potentially “lord over people’s relationship with the Father”, as the Pharisees and Sadducess did, and yet He still gave these Authorities to the Apostles.

I agree with John 20:21-23 that those who have been given the holy spirit have this authority that is my point.
Why, because if you exercise this authority, in regards to mercy mercy will be given you.
If we do not exercise this authority we will all come under the law for My Father is just.

When i refereed to Pharisees and Sadducess lording over people i was meaning that they kept people from having the direct relationship with My Father. Implying that if any have essential an ordained priest for the forgiveness of sins we have not accepted the opportunity given by My Father though My Brother of repentant sinners having one on one relationship with My Father.

Those who have been given the holy spirit need not any other person between.

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree with John 20:21-23 that those who have been given the holy spirit have this authority that is my point.
Why, because if you exercise this authority, in regards to mercy mercy will be given you.
If we do not exercise this authority we will all come under the law for My Father is just.

But there’s the rub, my brother. Jesus explicitly gives the Apostles to NOT forgive sins, and they do this with His Authority - “Those sins you retain, they are retained”.

When i refereed to Pharisees and Sadducess lording over people i was meaning that they kept people from having the direct relationship with My Father. Implying that if any have essential an ordained priest for the forgiveness of sins we have not accepted the opportunity given by My Father though My Brother of repentant sinners having one on one relationship with My Father.

I don’t understand. You mean to tell me that my priest, and confessor, keep me from having a direct relationship with my Father? It seems to me that my priest helps strengthen my relationship with The Father. In much the same way the St. Paul and the rest of the Apostles (and Church Fathers, and saints, and most of the clergy throughout the ages) do.

Those who have been given the holy spirit need not any other person between.

 

[Steven_John]

But there’s the rub, my brother. Jesus explicitly gives the Apostles to NOT forgive sins, and they do this with His Authority - “Those sins you retain, they are retained”.

With authority comes responsibility, i see “Those sins you retain, they are retained” as encouraging forgiveness not judgement.
Not a rub to me, I don’t for give those who have more than one god nor would we witness to more than One G-d.
If they are truly repentant of this and turn from it I wont hold that in their past against them.
But it is not mine to forgive, it is My Fathers as it is against Him they were not me.
If i thought they needed words i would offer them forgiveness by My Father will.
He has forgiven such in the bible, better He has forgiven me when i had idolatrous gods before Him.
I don’t see how this differs to how an ordained priest would discern.

I don’t understand. You mean to tell me that my priest, and confessor, keep me from having a direct relationship with my Father? It seems to me that my priest helps strengthen my relationship with The Father.

Yes i see very well what u r saying and agree, poor choice of words maybe from me. But i dont see that makes him essential, as previously posted I offered it is the same as i encourage my kids.

In much the same way the St. Paul and the rest of the Apostles (and Church Fathers, and saints, and most of the clergy throughout the ages) do.

We spirit filled are all to for fill this not just Ordained priests.

Those who have been given the holy spirit need not any other person between.

I am not asserting we do not benefit from sharing with others but that is in our weakness not our true state.
In my life i oft act like the spirit has left me and indeed my Brothers Ordained priests or otherwise serve me as i am called to serve them.

I have very close personal relationships with lots of ordained priests in my dioceses their not just My Brothers but are my mates.
We share lots and grow lots closer to Our Father in this.

Where i live we are having fewer enter the seminary than in past days. I wonder if we dump sooo much on them by exulting them too high and deny our personal responsibility shoving it on the priest shoulders. I have seen many bend under this load, IMO they need us to share the load so not to break Our Brothers mere men.

I say Our Brother because Yeshua (pbwh) should have told us we are all brothers and service to each other is our call. Who is really least among us? Who from among us can really see another mans heart? Sure we see fruit of the spirit but we have fallen foul to exalting many of our Brother priests only to see later they had some rotten apples. In our eyes oft we see they brought wolves among sheep.

I personally cant see them as any more authoritative to forgive sins than “old John” who for so many years has put so many of us second in his life only to My Father. In our eyes he is an saint among sheep.