Is Jesus God?

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, I really hate how you put restrictions on God. He can do ANYTHING - and that includes being a Jewish man and God at the same time.

You are totally mistaken to think that I put restrictions on God. Who am I?
But you are committing a gross miscalculation if you think that God is subject to your whims to do or to have done anything just because you have decided that He did. Who decided that He became flesh in a Jewish man, Paul? Who was Paul, a mere human being to compose a Christology and start preaching around that he invented the wheel?

 

[Dan_Parker]

You are totally mistaken to think that I put restrictions on God. Who am I?
But you are committing a gross miscalculation if you think that God is subject to your whims to do or to have done anything just because you have decided that He did. Who decided that He became flesh in a Jewish man, Paul? Who was Paul, a mere human being to compose a Christology and start preaching around that he invented the wheel?

It is really an interpretation of some in Christendom that God himself became flesh. No bible writer teaches this. Some believe this because of a scribal change to 1Ti 3:16, but Catholic bibles don’t have this defect, like the KJV that has God where the word he is found below.

NJB 1 Timothy 3:16 Without any doubt, the mystery of our religion is very deep indeed: **He **was made visible in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed to the gentiles, believed in throughout the world, taken up in glory.

Another place where some appeal is **John 1:14 **where it was the Word who was made flesh and not God himself. Because of their interpretation that the Word is identified as God as opposed to having divinity predicated upon him they view this as God himself becoming flesh. That is an interpretation and not something bible writers explicit teach.

The only place I can think of where Paul might be said to be responsible for this teaching is Col 2:9. However bibles like the NAB correctly show that the word SWMATIKOS is an adverb and not a noun as in some renderings where they use the term “bodily form”.
NAB Colossians 2:9 For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily,

This could mean plenty of things, none of which are that God himself dwells in a human body.

 

[twb1621]

TWB, I am deeply disappointed at this post of yours, which is SAD for lack of a better word. Not only you but many here ready themselves to answer questions without even an elementary knowledge of your own NT. I wonder what you guys expect to achieve as evangelizing the Jewish People is concern. I have been knocking at this door for some time now and only “ghosts” with nothing to offer welcome me in. That’s a shame!

You would benefit at learning how to ask questions specific to what it is you want to know.

 

[twb1621]

**Who on earth asked for the above timetable in the agenda of Paul? I am sure I didn’t. I recall to have asked where to find in the NT that Paul became an apostle to the Gentiles and actually when he decided to go for his mission. Because all that I find is that since his first station in the synagogues of Damascus and until his last in Rome, he never left the Jews in peace. **

Where does it say the Jews did not come to him to learn the word of God through the Messiah? Give me your source Ben. It appears you still believe you know more about Christianity than Christians do. Get to the point or get off the game playing.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I do understand you. But who decided that he was God incarnate, you, Paul? What’s the difference? One of you two has decided that he was God incarnate, because as a Jewish man, he could not be God incarnate. Capicci?

Ben, who else but God can walk on tread the seas? Who else but God can calm the oceans and winds?

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, any Jew is classified as an ordinary Jew before God, including Jesus. What makes you think Jesus was not an ordinary Jew, the information given by the Greeks who wrote the NT? But of course! How could I not think of Replacement Theology? How could the individual replace the collective if he was an ordinary Jew? No wonder he had to be different by being conceived by the Holy Spirit. The reason they fabricated to differentiate Jesus from the other Jews, backfired by making of him a Greek who perhaps happned to have lived in Israel for a few years.

Yada, yada, yada…

Why is this thread continuing?

I’ll tell you what Ben. Why don’t you just rewrite the New Testament and tell us what’s in it and what’s not. Then we’ll go from there.

Besides, I need a good laugh!

 

[Dan_Parker]

Ben, who else but God can walk on tread the seas? Who else but God can calm the oceans and winds?

Peter did it for a little while

NAB Matthew 14:29 He said, “Come.” Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw how (strong) the wind was he became frightened; and, beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”

NAB John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

 

[twb1621]

Yes, any Jew is classified as an ordinary Jew before God, including Jesus. What makes you think Jesus was not an ordinary Jew, the information given by the Greeks who wrote the NT? But of course! How could I not think of Replacement Theology? How could the individual replace the collective if he was an ordinary Jew? No wonder he had to be different by being conceived by the Holy Spirit. The reason they fabricated to differentiate Jesus from the other Jews, backfired by making of him a Greek who perhaps happned to have lived in Israel for a few years.

Ben, wasn’t it you who said you were “one of the body of Israel that is the Messiah” scripture speaks of?

Wasn’t it you who demeaned your Jewish heritage and ancestry and claimed their beliefs are misguided?

Isn’t it you who believes he knows Christianity better than the Christians but deny’s His heritage?

Back to my old question for you Ben, how is it you believe Israel is the Messiah of which you are one with and yet God was sending a Messiah to save Israel. How does God send Israel to be its own Savior as He proclaimed throughout the Old Testament when to this day you can’t accept your own heritage as you yourself has acknowledged?

 

[twb1621]

Peter did it for a little while
NAB Matthew 14:29 He said, “Come.” Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw how (strong) the wind was he became frightened; and, beginning to sink, he cried out, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught him, and said to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?”
NAB John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own. The Father who dwells in me is doing his works.

Dan, very good, Jesus was there for Peter at that time and now you are acknowledging you believe that Jesus is one in Being with the Father afterall. Awesome…

 

[adrift]

I do wish you would learn to use the sites quote features. It is very difficult to follow you.

adrift:
You are mistaken to what St Augustine was saying. That you are mistaken is obvious when you read his previous statement. .

.

Dan:
I am not sure which part of this verse you appeal to make your point. First of all, I agree Augustine would say the Son was equal to the Father and don’t use this passage to claim otherwise. Look at the entire statement. He uses the adversitive particle “but” to introduce his identification of Jesus here as the Mediator and wants to make it clear that he still considers Jesus to be equal to the Father. This leads into the next section (5) where his reference to God in “My Lord and My God” is the Father, the Son being the Mediator.

I guess you missed this

He wouldn’t have called Jesus equal to the Father unless Jesus is God. Which is what St. Augustine was saying.

No he is not referencing God the Father but God the Son Jesus.

adrift:

What Augustine is saying is that Thomas saw Jesus in His Human form but Thomas put away his doubt about Jesus being God and believed that Jesus is God. I think you are reading into what you want to see not whats there. He wouldn’t have called Jesus equal to the Father unless Jesus is God. Which is what St. Augustine was saying.

Dan:
Augustine can consider Jesus to be equal to the Father even though he considers the phrase “My Lord and My God” to be a reference to two persons and not one. We know Augustine considered the Father to be God and that he considered the Son to be God, so why would it imply that he Son was not God if he called the Father God in John 20:28?

You are mistaken in your understanding of what Augustine is saying. Your question is confusing. I am not sure where you are going with it.

There are plenty of Trinitarians who don’t consider that a particular passage calls the Son “God” without denying their theology. A doctrine does not and should not rest on just one passage.

 

[twb1621]

You are totally mistaken to think that I put restrictions on God. Who am I?
But you are committing a gross miscalculation if you think that God is subject to your whims to do or to have done anything just because you have decided that He did. Who decided that He became flesh in a Jewish man, Paul? Who was Paul, a mere human being to compose a Christology and start preaching around that he invented the wheel?

Ben, if you would step back from your misconceived notion that Paul is the be all and end all of Catholicism, you might begin to get the idea. Jesus Himself founded His Faith, His Church. He determined who would do what and Paul was only one of those chosen to perform His services. Jesus is the Head of His Church.

**Jesus said, **
**Mat. Ch16; 15-19 “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **

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Luke CH22; 31 “And the Lord said: Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you all as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and thou, being once converted, confirm thy brethren.”

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Jesus said:
“…I am the good shepherd, and I know mine and mine know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I will lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd***.” (Jn 10:14-16)

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Matthew CH24; 4 “And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: 5 For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many. 6 And you shall hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: 8 Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. 12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. 13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.”

Acts Ch20; 28 “Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”

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Ephesians CH4; 1 “I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, 2 With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. 3 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 One body (the Church) and one Spirit (Holy Spirit); as you are called in one hope of your calling. 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.”

continued next post.

 

[twb1621]

You are totally mistaken to think that I put restrictions on God. Who am I?

continued from previous post…

1 Corinthians CH12; “12***** For as the body is one, and hath many members; and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For in one Spirit (The Holy Spirit) were we all baptized into one body (Church), whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free; and in one Spirit we have all been made to drink. 14 For the body also is not one member, but many (the established church including the faithful******). 15 If the foot should say, because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were the eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God hath set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased him. 19 And if they all were one member, where would be the body? 20 But now there are many members indeed, yet one body. ***
21*** And the eye cannot say to the hand: I need not thy help; nor again the head to the feet: I have no need of you. 22 Yea, much more those that seem to be the more feeble members of the body, are more necessary. 23 And such as we think to be the less honourable members of the body, about these we put more abundant honour; and those that are our uncomely parts, have more abundant comeliness. 24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour, 25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another*. **
26 If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy. 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it. 28 Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. ”
Colossians CH1; 18***** “And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy: 19 Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father, that all fullness should dwell; 20 And through him to reconcile all things unto himself, making peace through the blood of his cross, both as to the things that are on earth, and the things that are in heaven******. ***
21*** And you, whereas you were some time alienated and enemies in mind in evil works: 22 Yet now he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, which is preached in all the creation that is under heaven, whereof I Paul am made a minister. 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church******.”***

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So what is your position, Ben, do you think Jesus was deceiving people or do you see His intention was to establish the Church of His new Covenant? You seem to have a GREAT BIG PAUL in your eye.

 

[ready]

They are the moribunds who are perishing for lack of knowledge, according to Hosea 4:6. That’s what happens when one does not know his and the enemy’s territory.
To admit that a Jew can be God is idolatry.

Idolatry is when you worship false gods. Jesus isn’t a false god, he is God himself. He said He was God and good Christians take Him for His word.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I do wish you would learn to use the sites quote features. It is very difficult to follow you.

I guess you missed this
No he is not referencing God the Father but God the Son Jesus.

You are mistaken in your understanding of what Augustine is saying. Your question is confusing. I am not sure where you are going with it.

Augustine said that Thomas touched Jesus and acknowledged the God he could not see. That is the Father. – NJB John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

 

[adrift]

Augustine said that Thomas touched Jesus and acknowledged the God he could not see. That is the Father. – NJB John 1:18 No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is close to the Father’s heart, who has made him known.

Read again

Although it may be affirmed that the disciple dared not so to touch, when He offered Himself for the purpose; for it is not written, And Thomas touched Him.

He acknowledged that Jesus is God.
From notworthy’s post

But if the Son is said to be sent by the Father on this account, that the one is the Father, and the other the Son, this does not in any manner hinder us from believing the Son to be equal, and consubstantial, and co-eternal with the Father, and yet to have been sent as Son by the Father. Not because the one is greater, the other less; but because the one is Father, the other Son; the one begetter, the other begotten; the one, He from whom He is who is sent; the other, He who is from Him who sends."
Augustine,On the Trinity,4:20(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:83
Quote:
“The Word of God, then, the only-begotten Son of the Father, in all things like and equal to the Father, God of God, Light of Light, Wisdom of Wisdom, Essence of Essence, is altogether that which the Father is, yet is not the Father, because the one is Son, the other is Father. And hence He knows all that the Father knows; but to Him to know, as to be, is from the Father, for to know and to be is there one. And therefore, as to be is not to the Father from the Son, so neither is to know. Accordingly, as though uttering Himself, the Father begat the Word equal to Himself in all things; for He would not have uttered Himself wholly and perfectly, if there were in His Word anything more or less than in Himself.”
Augustine,On the Trinity,15:14(A.D. 416),in NPNF1,III:213
Oct 17, '09 5:56 pm

When Augustine said that Jesus was equal to the Father he was affirming Jesus is God.
When Thomas said my Lord and My God, he was speaking directly to Jesus in worship of his God.

 

[Dan_Parker]

Read again

He acknowledged that Jesus is God.
From notworthy’s post

When Augustine said that Jesus was equal to the Father he was affirming Jesus is God.
When Thomas said my Lord and My God, he was speaking directly to Jesus in worship of his God.

And as I already posted earlier, I don’t deny Augustine considered Jesus to be God on other grounds, but not based upon John 20:28.

 

[rdscheirer]

Geesis 1:26- let US make man in our own image- the trinity was there from the very beginning

 

[adrift]

And as I already posted earlier, I don’t deny Augustine considered Jesus to be God on other grounds, but not based upon John 20:28.

I am glad you clarified that but I disagree with you. When I read that passage I see him reaffirming that Thomas recognized in Jesus that he was God and so addressed Him as his God. You have offered your interpretation of Augustine’s writings. I disagree with it.

 

[Dan_Parker]

I am glad you clarified that but I disagree with you. When I read that passage I see him reaffirming that Thomas recognized in Jesus that he was God and so addressed Him as his God. You have offered your interpretation of Augustine’s writings. I disagree with it.

I’ll respect your view even though I can’t understand it.

 

[Canto]

There is no such a thing as anything complete as far as religions are concerned. But we don’t relate to Jewish authorities as you do to the head of Catholicism.
So, for you to disagree with him is a much more serious thing to do.

I did not disagree with the Pope. The NAB contained a Letter of Pope Paul VI not an imprimatur. He never claimed the transaltion and notes were 100% perfect, no translation is.