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Martin_R
Guest
They were wrong as John 14:28 shows: "You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Martin,
In response to this quote,
This smacks of picking and choosing which verses to follow and which to ignore.
In response to this quote,
you replied,
I’m confused with your statement “They were wrong”. How can Jesus be wrong in some parts of John and right in other parts of John? And, just as important, how can you be absolutely sure where Jesus is right and where Jesus is wrong?
This smacks of picking and choosing which verses to follow and which to ignore.
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Cides28
Guest
and remember though Jesus is true God He is also true man. as a man yes the Father is greater but as GOd they are equal.
so there are passages that say he is equal and one with the father and some say the Father is greater - - hence he is true GOD and true Man. yes it can be better explain then this but trying to make it as simple as possible. =) i’m not thomas aquinas or JPII or Pope Benedict xvi =)
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Martin_R
Guest
Yes! and Jesus represents God:
Hbr 1:3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, NASB
I think this is what John is saying:
In the beginning there was a divine word and it was stored in God’s heart and was his own creative self-expression. All things came into being through that divine word and without it nothing was made that was made…And the word/plan became flesh — was realized in a human person and dwelt among us.
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Cides28
Guest
RSV BIBLE STATES 4 HEBREWS 1:3- [3] He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature - - - SO HE BEARS THE VERY STAMP OF GOD’S NATURE AND WHAT IS THAT NATURE GOD!!! WHAT IS THAT, THE ONE THAT CREATES ALL THINGS, THE ONE THAT GIVES LIFE TO ALL, THAT FORGIVES AND BRINGS MERCY AND GRACE TO ALL. THE ONE THAT RAISES THE DEAD THE LOWLY, THE TROUBLE, THE ONE THAT PROVIDES FOR HIS PEOPLE, THE ONE THAT UPHOLDS ALL THINGS. THE LORD OF THE SABATH, THE ONE WHO IS LORD OF THE LIVING AND THE DEAD.
And just to remind you of what the bible say, what Jesus said - - “the Holy Spirit the Comforter will come and guide you to ALL TRUTH.” hE DID NOT SAY THE hoLY sPIRIT WILL GIVE YOU OPINIONS SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE AN OPINION ON WHAT YOU THINK THE BIBLE IS SAYING… NO HE SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL GUIDE YOU TO ALL TRUTH. WHO IS HE GUIDING TO ALL TRUTH? HIS CHURCH HIS PEOPLE!
SO THANKS FOR YOUR OPINION ON JOHN 1 BUT I PREFER TO LISTEN TO THE hOLY sPIRIT AND HIS CHURCH HE IS GUIDING THAT TAUGHT FOR 2000 WHAT JOHN 1 HAS SAID
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Martin_R
Guest
I said before that “theos” can mean somebody in authority. I have now found some examples: the Roman governor (Acts 12:22), and even the Devil (2 Cor. 4:4).
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Martin_R
Guest
Also it was common at that time to call God’s representatives “God,” and the Old Testament contains quite a few examples. When Jacob wrestled with “God,” it is clear that he was actually wrestling with an angel (Hosea 12:4)
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Cides28
Guest
So when Thomas replied to Jesus “My Lord and My GOD!” he is just referring Jesus as his authority figure? mmmmmmmmm wow!!!
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Martin_R
Guest
Jesus is one thing, God is another:
Mar 12:27
He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
Rom 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. NASB
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Martin_R
Guest
There was no knowledge of Trinitarian doctrine at the time Thomas spoke.
There is no evidence from the gospel accounts that Jesus’ disciples believed him to be God, and Thomas, upon seeing the resurrected Christ, was not birthing a new theology in a moment of surprise.
The context of the verse shows that its subject is the fact that Jesus was alive. Only three verses earlier, Thomas had ignored the eyewitness testimony of the other apostles when they told him they had seen the Lord. The resurrection of Christ was such a disputed doctrine that Thomas did not believe it (the other apostles had not either), and thus Jesus’ death would have caused Thomas to doubt that Jesus was who he said he was—the Messiah. Thomas believed Jesus was dead. Thus, he was shocked and astonished when he saw—and was confronted by— Jesus Himself. Thomas, upon being confronted by the living Christ, instantly believed in the resurrection, i.e., that God had raised the man Jesus from the dead, and, given the standard use of “God” in the culture as one with God’s authority, it certainly makes sense that Thomas would proclaim, “My Lord and my God.” There is no mention of the Trinity in the context, and there is no reason to believe that the disciples would have even been aware of such a doctrine. Thomas spoke what he would have known: that the man Jesus who he thought was dead was alive and had divine authority.
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Cides28
Guest
AND HE REFER TO JESUS (GREEK TRANSLATION OF THE VERSE) THE LORD OF ME AND THE GOD OF ME. THE JEWS ALL THE MORE SAUGHT TO KILL HIM CAUSE HE CALLED GOD HIS FATHER MAKING HIMSELF GOD AND EQUAL TO GOD (JOHN 5 AND JOHN 10) JOHN 8:58 JESUS TAKES THE NAME YWHW AND THAT IS WHY THEY TOOK UP STONES TO STONE HIM (LEVITICUS 24:16)
Look it’s just useless going back and forth with you - - no offense I put my trust in Christ that he guided the church through all times and if that is the case i rely on the teachings of the first Christians who knew and were taught by the apostles and passed down that teaching. To say you know more then them and know the true meaning of the bible passages well sorry, i’m not that naive and dumb. No offense you probaly a nice person but brainwashed to believe in the wrong thing.
so believe what you want, all we can do for you is pray for you!!!
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Martin_R
Guest
And 1 Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
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Cides28
Guest
does this contradict the teaching of the Trinity? no - - are they equal yes bible clearly states the Jesus is equal to the Father they are one, in the Godhead is the father first yes, in a marriage is the husband first LOL yes so to speak but does that mean the wife is not human or less human then the husband.
instead of trying to convince me of your misunderstanding of Jesus, go get a hold of William Jurgens 3 volume set of “faith of the early fathers” and study the writings of the early Christians.
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Cristian_B
Guest
Which, by the way, are found in Isaiah:
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -
Isaiah 11:2
And there is something I want to ask: since there are only 6 spirits there (wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge, fear of God), what is the 7th spirit?
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TheQuestioner
Guest
The exact representation of God’s nature? Do you even know that this means? It means Jesus is the exact representation of what God is, not just what God is like. God’s nature is love. If Christ is the exact representation of love then that would also make Him love, and subsequently God.
How did you get that from John 1? Lets go over this
From John 1: 1In the beginning was the Word
Not a divine word, but the word. Keep that in mind.
From John 1: and the Word was with God
Nothing about it being stored in God’s heart. It was with God, or along side Him. Does God even have a heart? If so it would be metaphysical, not literal like the way you use it.
From John 1: and the Word was God
It says absolutely nothing about a creative expression. You cannot ignore this part of the gospel. The Word was God.
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TheQuestioner
Guest
First of all in Acts 12:22 Herod was not called “theos” or “god” because he had authority. The people actually hailed him as a literal god.
Acts 12:22
22They shouted, “This is the voice of a god, not of a man.”
Second, in 2 Cor 4:4
Satan too is hailed in this world as a deity among sinners. The word was used to describe a being that is worshiped. So in this case the use of the word “theos” was appropriate cause Satan was set up as a “god” in opposition to God. It didn’t have anything to do with authority but with conveying a message.
Again, the standard use of the word “god” was not to show authority but divinity. You simply inferred that conclusion because it supports your arguments (though not quite well). So again, why does it say “the word was God” and Thomas say “the Lord of mind and the God of mine” (if the usage of authority was in place here this phrase would no longer make sense)?
Don’t just give me an opinion. Support it with some biblical evidence. These two verses are a huge stumbling block to you right now.
J
John7
Guest
Tit 2:13
προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα
και επιφανειαν της δοξης
του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων Iησου χριστου
-last line
our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
TSKS, follows Granville Sharp rule (Greek grammar), therefore ‘God and Savior’ are the same person, so that…Jesus is God.
προσδεχομενοι την μακαριαν ελπιδα
και επιφανειαν της δοξης
του μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων Iησου χριστου
-last line
our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ
TSKS, follows Granville Sharp rule (Greek grammar), therefore ‘God and Savior’ are the same person, so that…Jesus is God.
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dj_dave
Guest
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dj_dave
Guest
[SIGN]
Actually, not at all…careful for what you ask for…
Here are some defenses from our friends that have more time to write.
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/opposers.htm
jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
web.archive.org/web/20031204162016/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/pageindex.htm
extra: vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/
TheQuestioner; said:
Actually, not at all…careful for what you ask for…
Here are some defenses from our friends that have more time to write.
primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/opposers.htm
jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html
web.archive.org/web/20031204162016/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/pageindex.htm
extra: vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/
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hopeforfaith
Guest
Okay, so i don’t know if i have sinned by thinking this:
Before when i didn’t go too deep reading the bible, i heard from my Legion teacher advisor that Jesus is God. I didn’t think particularly about it afterwards. But i was thinking that Jesus IS God and then there is God. Because it was kind of stated that he sits on the right side of the God. And so i am thinking now that Jesus is God and then there is God… but this sounds weird. Like two Gods? Once my friend said “i thought they were the same person” i forgot what i said but i said something like “what? Maybe he is. I don’t really know.” or “it can’t be, right?” Now, after reading part of this thread, i do know that Jesus is God and it was wrong to doubt it. But… is it like there is Jesus, who is God, and then there is God himself?
Before when i didn’t go too deep reading the bible, i heard from my Legion teacher advisor that Jesus is God. I didn’t think particularly about it afterwards. But i was thinking that Jesus IS God and then there is God. Because it was kind of stated that he sits on the right side of the God. And so i am thinking now that Jesus is God and then there is God… but this sounds weird. Like two Gods? Once my friend said “i thought they were the same person” i forgot what i said but i said something like “what? Maybe he is. I don’t really know.” or “it can’t be, right?” Now, after reading part of this thread, i do know that Jesus is God and it was wrong to doubt it. But… is it like there is Jesus, who is God, and then there is God himself?
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