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Tomster
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Dan_Parker
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JeanneH:
Hi Dan.
I certainly am not on the same level with you when it comes to biblical knowledge. That being said, I think at some point it is a matter of interpretation.
I also think that every religious assembly has their own doctrinal developments.
When Jesus says that the Father and I are one I take that literally.
Dan:
One what?
Jesus also has the power to forgive sins: and we know that only God has the power to forgive sins.
Dan:
Jesus gave his disciples the authority to forgive sins NJB John 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained…
Jesus also says that he lays down his life on his own and he will take it up again.John 10:17 How can he do this if he is not God? Only God can give life…
Dan:
God gave Jesus the ability to give life. NAB John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
Now these are just my thoughts here. When Jesus was with God in heaven before he was incarnated he was divine and when he was born unto Mary he became human. Jesus never lost His divinity here on earth but it was veiled. Even Jesus says that only God the Father knows when the end will come. Jesus in his humanity does not.
Dan:
You say he never lost his divinity but then give an example where he did not know something. That is good evidence against the divinity of the Son. What is your evidence to back this up?
DRB Gal1:1 Paul, an apostle,not from men,neither by man,but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…
I think Paul is saying that it wasn’t from him who was only a man, but from Jesus Christ who was both God and man.
Dan:
At the most it could say that the origin of Paul’s apostleship was not bestowed by a human institution and that it came from both Jesus and God. However it does clearly say that the individuals who gave him this office was not a human being. You insert the word “only” and that is your interpretation and not in the text.
Since you teach Jesus Christ is still a human being this text remains problematic unless you insert a meaning that has not been made explicit in the text. On the other hand, as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I can just accept the text as it is written.
Hi Dan.
I certainly am not on the same level with you when it comes to biblical knowledge. That being said, I think at some point it is a matter of interpretation.
I also think that every religious assembly has their own doctrinal developments.
When Jesus says that the Father and I are one I take that literally.
Dan:
One what?
Jesus also has the power to forgive sins: and we know that only God has the power to forgive sins.
Dan:
Jesus gave his disciples the authority to forgive sins NJB John 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone’s sins, they are retained…
Jesus also says that he lays down his life on his own and he will take it up again.John 10:17 How can he do this if he is not God? Only God can give life…
Dan:
God gave Jesus the ability to give life. NAB John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
Now these are just my thoughts here. When Jesus was with God in heaven before he was incarnated he was divine and when he was born unto Mary he became human. Jesus never lost His divinity here on earth but it was veiled. Even Jesus says that only God the Father knows when the end will come. Jesus in his humanity does not.
Dan:
You say he never lost his divinity but then give an example where he did not know something. That is good evidence against the divinity of the Son. What is your evidence to back this up?
DRB Gal1:1 Paul, an apostle,not from men,neither by man,but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead…
I think Paul is saying that it wasn’t from him who was only a man, but from Jesus Christ who was both God and man.
Dan:
At the most it could say that the origin of Paul’s apostleship was not bestowed by a human institution and that it came from both Jesus and God. However it does clearly say that the individuals who gave him this office was not a human being. You insert the word “only” and that is your interpretation and not in the text.
Since you teach Jesus Christ is still a human being this text remains problematic unless you insert a meaning that has not been made explicit in the text. On the other hand, as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I can just accept the text as it is written.
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Tomster
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JeanneH
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One what? One God
Ultimately only God can forgive sins. Yes, I can forgive some one who sins against me but that won’t give that person or me for that matter eternal life. Only God’s forgiveness can do that for me.
John 20:23
That is like when I tell my sins to the priest. Through but not by the priest are my sins forgiven.
I give up.
Back to the circular argument.
I am amazed that as knowledgeable as you seem to be and as much as you have studied that you still don’t know the full truth.
You will still spout what you have been taught as a JW and I will still believe what I have been taught as a Catholic albeit we are taught the truth.
Once again it is all in the interpretation.
God Bless and I do hope you find the truth.
Jeanne
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Tomster
Guest
Dan,
The acts of the Saviour are human, and yet they are divine.They are human because the proceed from a human nature; they are divine by reason of the power that pervades them. Indeed, not only those actions of Christ which are the vehicles of God’s miraculous power, but every act of the Word Incarnate is in a sense theandric, human and divine: human by reason of his human nature, divine by reason of the Person in whom that humanity subsists. They are the human actions of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity; human and yet of infinite dignity, infinite as the diginity of God who performs them.
Christ, therefore, is truly and perfectly God, truly and perfectly man. He is man without losing anything of his Divinity, God without prejudice to his humanity. While the manhood assumed by God the Son is as perfect as manhood can be, yet Christ did not disdain to be subject to the weaknesses of our nature. Finally, side by side with the natural and supernatural perfections of his manhood, in which he presents himself as our Model, we discern others - his extraordinary knowledge and his miraculous power - which are bound up with the peculiar condition of one who is both God and man, and with his functions as Teacher and Redeemer of mankind.
From this necessarily brief description of the adorable Person of our Redeemer, it can be seen that no name more aptly describes him than that of “Mediator.” One is the mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5). By reason of his twofold nature the God-man is the natural Mediator between God and man, uniting as he does the Divinity and humanity in his own Person. He is the cornerstone who has made both one.
The acts of the Saviour are human, and yet they are divine.They are human because the proceed from a human nature; they are divine by reason of the power that pervades them. Indeed, not only those actions of Christ which are the vehicles of God’s miraculous power, but every act of the Word Incarnate is in a sense theandric, human and divine: human by reason of his human nature, divine by reason of the Person in whom that humanity subsists. They are the human actions of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity; human and yet of infinite dignity, infinite as the diginity of God who performs them.
Christ, therefore, is truly and perfectly God, truly and perfectly man. He is man without losing anything of his Divinity, God without prejudice to his humanity. While the manhood assumed by God the Son is as perfect as manhood can be, yet Christ did not disdain to be subject to the weaknesses of our nature. Finally, side by side with the natural and supernatural perfections of his manhood, in which he presents himself as our Model, we discern others - his extraordinary knowledge and his miraculous power - which are bound up with the peculiar condition of one who is both God and man, and with his functions as Teacher and Redeemer of mankind.
From this necessarily brief description of the adorable Person of our Redeemer, it can be seen that no name more aptly describes him than that of “Mediator.” One is the mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Timothy 2:5). By reason of his twofold nature the God-man is the natural Mediator between God and man, uniting as he does the Divinity and humanity in his own Person. He is the cornerstone who has made both one.
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Tomster
Guest
It will be mighty difficult for Dan to find the Truth using the JW bible.
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Tomster
Guest
Indeed, we have been taught the truth, thanks to Divine Tradition and Sacred Scriptures through the infallible teaching authority of the Catholic Church. It’s a beautiful thing.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
JeanneH:
One what? One God
In Greek the word for “one” is different when it is used to modify a noun that is masculine, feminine or neuter. In John 10:30 and 17:22-24 the word used is hEN and it is neuter. The word God in Greek is masculine and so when one sees the term “one God” is it hEIS QEOS. Therefore it does not match the gender of the word God. Finally, in John 17:22-24 the disciples are one (hEN) with each other as Jesus and his Father are one, one in purpose.
JeanneH:
Ultimately only God can forgive sins. Yes, I can forgive some one who sins against me but that won’t give that person or me for that matter eternal life. Only God’s forgiveness can do that for me.
John 20:23
That is like when I tell my sins to the priest. Through but not by the priest are my sins forgiven.
Dan:
NAB John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
The verse says that the disciples are the ones forgiving the sins.
One what? One God
In Greek the word for “one” is different when it is used to modify a noun that is masculine, feminine or neuter. In John 10:30 and 17:22-24 the word used is hEN and it is neuter. The word God in Greek is masculine and so when one sees the term “one God” is it hEIS QEOS. Therefore it does not match the gender of the word God. Finally, in John 17:22-24 the disciples are one (hEN) with each other as Jesus and his Father are one, one in purpose.
JeanneH:
Ultimately only God can forgive sins. Yes, I can forgive some one who sins against me but that won’t give that person or me for that matter eternal life. Only God’s forgiveness can do that for me.
John 20:23
That is like when I tell my sins to the priest. Through but not by the priest are my sins forgiven.
Dan:
NAB John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."
The verse says that the disciples are the ones forgiving the sins.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
I find the truth in the Catholic bible too. I have been quoting the DR, NJB and NAB if you notice.
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jlhargus
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Mark
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jlhargus
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JL: Problem is you don’t read them. You get your info on them from the WT only. You are not even allowed to study the NWT alone or in a group of JWs.
The Bible is a sealed book except to the organization. WT 7/1/1973, p. 402 [66 Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516]
“… from among the ranks of Jehovah’s people … haughty ones … say that it is sufficient to read the Bible exclusively, either alone or in small groups at home. But, strangely, through such ‘Bible reading,’ they have reverted right back to the apostate doctrines that commentaries by Christendom’s clergy were teaching 100 years ago…” WT 8/15/1981, pp. 28-29 [Index of Watch Tower Errors, David A Reed, editor compiled by Steve Huntoon & John Cornell, Baker Book House Grand Rapids, Michigan 49516].
What would those doctrines reverted back to be, the trinity, Jesus is God, the bodily resurrection of Our Lord and God Jesus Christ, hell, soul etc. So the WT thinks reading the scriptures without their WT traditions of men made doctrines of God will lead one into darkness. Don’t you find their admission strange, reading scripture exclusively will lead you away from the WT. This is one time they have it right. Seems the WT doesn’t trust scripture or for that matter their own doctrines to be found there. They know reading the bible exclusively apart from the WT traditions of men will lead you to TRUTH and out of their DARKNESS.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: No, Hb5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:
Hb7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; [KJV]
Although it could say the God, Jesus Christ, Jn 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He existed in the beginning with God. 3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him.
Jn1:14 So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son. NLT}
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jlhargus
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JeanneH
Guest
From the Haydock Catholic commentary
Ver. 23. Whose sins you shall forgive,[2] &c. These words clearly express the power of forgiving sins, which, as God, he gave to his apostles, and to their successors, bishops and priests, to forgive sins in his name, as his ministers, and instruments, even though they are sinners themselves. For in this, they act not by their own power, nor in their own name, but in the name of God, who as the principal cause, always remits sins.
Jeanne
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NotWorthy
Guest
Good point.
I also look at it this way. When Peter brings the girl back to life in Acts 8 (or 9?), Peter is not raising the girl from the dead. God is raising the girl through Peter.
Its the same with forgiveness. God is forgiving us through the priest.
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Dan_Parker
Guest
I don’t disagree with the fact that God is the source of all good gifts which would include the gift of the undeserved kindness of forgiveness and also the resurrection. James says as much in 1:17:
NJB James 1:17 all that is good, all that is perfect, is given us from above; it comes down from the Father of all light; with him there is no such thing as alteration, no shadow caused by change.
In fact Jesus also gave his Father credit for all he did as well:
NJB John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? What I say to you I do not speak of my own accord:** it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his works.**
This includes the resurrection, not just of the one mentioned by Peter above, but also Lazarus:
NAB John 11:40 Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believe you will see the glory of God?” 41 So they took away the stone. And Jesus raised his eyes and said, "Father, I thank you for hearing me. 42 I know that you always hear me; but because of the crowd here I have said this, that they may believe that you sent me." 43 And when he had said this, he cried out in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!"
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Martin_R
Guest
OK that wasn’t the best verse to quote to illustrate my point. I suspect it means he didn’t receive the message from another man nor was it something he’d read but it was a revelation from the Son of God.
But my point was, don’t you think people would be shouting about it if they’d actually met God? Especially when we have verses like 1 John 4:12 and John 1:18 which tell us nobody has.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Jesus was careful not to reveal His Divinity, knowing that it would bring on His Death before He was supposed to.
Just think, it only took the Jews less than a week to kill Jesus after He acknowledged publicly that He was Messiah and King. How much quicker if He claimed to be God?
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Dan_Parker
Guest
Why did Jesus not claim publicly to be God in addition to Messiah and King if it was time for his death?
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