Is Jesus God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Martin_R
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
NotWorthy said:
When did I say that there are “souls without spirits”? I don’t understand. Our souls, without our bodies, are pure spirits.

As I see it, the underlined point is exactly what I was talking about. “When he appears (at His second Coming) we shall be like him (we shall be reunited with our resurrected bodies), because we shall see him as he really is (the way the Apostles saw him at the Transfiguration).”
Click to expand...
I misunderstood your answer, sorry. However in the passage below the subject is God, not Jesus. Christians are children of the God and Father of Jesus Christ, not of Jesus. Christians are brothers of Jesus.

NAB 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

My original point was that the Father is spirit and Children of God who are resurrected to heaven look like the Father. Grammatically the word “him” cannot have as its antecedent Jesus who is not in this context.
 
Dan_Parker said:
I misunderstood your answer, sorry. However in the passage below the subject is God, not Jesus. Christians are children of the God and Father of Jesus Christ, not of Jesus. Christians are brothers of Jesus.
NAB 1 John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.My original point was that the Father is spirit and Children of God who are resurrected to heaven look like the Father. Grammatically the word “him” cannot have as its antecedent Jesus who is not in this context.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, I see the confusion. Taken by itself, this verse would seem to indicate that the author is talking about God. But lets look at the context:
1 *** See what love the Father has bestowed on us that we may be called the children of God. Yet so we are. The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 ****** Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we shall be has not yet been revealed. We do know that when it is revealed we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 ****** Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure.*** (Is this God or Jesus? Let’s read on)******* 4 ****** Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.*** *** 5 ****** You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. (You see, this context shows that the last 5 verses of “hims” shows that we are speaking of Jesus, just as all the “hims” at the end of chapter 2 indicated).**** 6 ****** No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. (Again, we know that the author is talking about Jesus, for “remains in him” is used by John numerous times regarding the words of Jesus in John 6 and 15).**** 7 ****** Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.****** 8 ****** Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.*** (again, the one revealed is “Jesus”)
Click to expand...
 
Refering to a common Christian understanding of Christs divinity “…Jesus as a historical figure basically ceased to be human (even though I knew that he was “true man” as well as “true God”). Instead I thought of Jesus as God in human form. I now know that this is one of the earliest and most widespread Christian heresies, called “Docetism.” With its Greek root meaning “to seem” or “to appear,” Docetism affirms that though Jesus seemed or appeared to be human, he was really God. Though heretical, Docetism is thought by many inside and outside the church to be standard Christian belief. And so I thought.” from, The God We Never Knew - Marcus J. Borg

Basically the historical Jesus was not God. The Jesus of the bible and the creeds is divine.
 
NotWorthy said:
Ahhh, I see the confusion. Taken by itself, this verse would seem to indicate that the author is talking about God. But lets look at the context:
Click to expand...
I don’t agree for at least two reasons:
  1. Grammar
The word “him” needs an antecedent. An antecedent comes from either the nearest previous subject or less frequently the subject in context. Grammatically the antecedent will match the pronoun in case, number and gender.

In this context the word “him” would naturally refer to God. If Jesus was in a previous verse you might have a point, but it is not. In addition if a part of the discourse was lacking a noun for the antecedent, then it would be natural to look forward to it. This actually happens from verse 5 on, see below.
  1. Discourse
At verse 4 there is a natural break in the discourse where the subjects change. John speaks about himself and Christians who are children of God. Then the discourse changes to people in general who sin and act wickedly. The subject has changed.
NJB 1 John 3:4 Whoever sins, acts wickedly, because all sin is wickedness.

John next introduces Jesus for a reason:
NJB 1 John 3:5 Now you are well aware that he has appeared in order to take sins away, and that in him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in him sins, and whoever sins has neither seen him nor recognised him.

But John does not include himself and other children of God in the class of these sinners because in this passage because those who remain in Jesus do not sin and John and other children of God are remaining in Jesus.

In conclusion, I agree that this is a difficult text because of the many pronouns. However in Greek the natural way to understand a pronoun like “him” is that it refers to the most recent antecedent. In addition the discourse changes in verse 4 which is a natural break and allows for a new subject.
 
NotWorthy said:
Very good point!
Click to expand...
I also think of the Son as the image of the invisible God.
NJB Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation,

Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich says of the word EIKWN (image) here that it is: 2. that which has the same form as someth. else

We don’t know what the form of the Father is, as he is spirit, but we know that the Son looks just like him, now that he is resurrected. After all, we know the Father does not look like a Jewish man with a beard!
 
Dan_Parker said:
I also think of the Son as the image of the invisible God.NJB Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation,Bauer-Danker-Arndt-Gingrich says of the word EIKWN (image) here that it is: 2. that which has the same form as someth. else

We don’t know what the form of the Father is, as he is spirit, but we know that the Son looks just like him, now that he is resurrected. After all, we know the Father does not look like a Jewish man with a beard!
Click to expand...
The book of Moses tells us that Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. It would appear that St. Paul is speaking of other than the “physical likeness”. I don’t think this verse in Colossians proves or dis-proves your point.
 
NotWorthy said:
The book of Moses tells us that Adam and Eve were created in the image and likeness of God. It would appear that St. Paul is speaking of other than the “physical likeness”. I don’t think this verse in Colossians proves or dis-proves your point.
Click to expand...
It does when one looks at the syntax of the verse. There are two phrases in simple apposition to each other:

NJB Colossians 1:15 He is** the image **of the unseen God, the first-born of all creation,

When two words are found in this construction, and both are in the same case and with reference to the same person or thing, the second is a further description of the first.

Therefore one could say that the Son is the firstborn image of the invisible Father. The Son is the likeness of the Father as his firstborn. This implies much more than qualities such as love, justice, wisdom and power.
 
May I add to this thread?

I know that my mere little mind will not ever completely understand all the mysteries of our Lord,but for me this makes sense.

We’re talking about the nature of Jesus. What was His nature? Ok let me start with Mary, Jesus’ mother.

Mary is who she is. Human is what she is.Human is her nature.

so

God the Father

Father is who He is. God is what He is. God is His nature.

The Holy Spirit is who He is. God is what He is. God is His nature.

Jesus is who He is. God is what He is. God is His nature.

Why? For the same reason that His Father is God.

Jesus has a human nature also.

Jesus is who He is. Human is what He is. Human is His nature.

Why? For the same reason that His mother is human.

I am human for the same reason that my mother and father are both human. They passed on their nature to me. Jesus’ Father is God and His mother is human so He inherited both of their natures.

If you believe in Scripture----

At the begining of the book of John we learn that the “Word” is someone, not something.

1 In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God.

2 He was with God in the beginning.

3 Through him all things came into being, not one thing came into being except through him.

4 What has come into being in him was life, life that was the light of men;

5 and light shines in darkness, and darkness could not overpower it.

And if you look at the begining of the book of Genesis you’ll notice God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

God the Father

2 And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the** spirit of God **moved over the waters.

God the Holy Spirit

3 And God** said**: Be light made. And light was made.

The Word of God…before He came in the flesh, Jesus.

26 God said, “Let us make man in our own image, in the likeness of ourselves, and let them be masters of the fish of the sea, the birds of heaven, the cattle, all the wild animals and all the creatures that creep along the ground.”

The Holy Trinity

Back to the book of** John**

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

15 John beareth witness of him, and crieth out, saying: This was he of whom I spoke: He that shall come after me, is preferred before me: because he was before me.
16 And of his fullness we all have received, and grace for grace.

17 For the law was given by Moses; grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Begotten =1. spawn, sire, breed, father, (esp. of a male parent) to procreate or generate (offspring).

But we believe in one God not three. How is this?

Don’t think like this…

1+1+1=3

think

1x1x1=1

hope i didn’t confuse you:) God bless you!
 
fellowChristian: with regard to your treatise on The Trinity, well done.

I’d like to add another observation. Christ clearly forgave sins during His earthly sojourn, and well in advance of The Sacrifice of Calvary. The Pharisees were quite correct in their indignant assertion that “only God can forgive sins” (Mark 2:7). Setting aside for a moment the fact that Jesus did not correct their otherwise reverent outcry but instead further qualified His Authority with a display of Divine Power, I would venture to guess that there are few Christians worthy of the name who dispute the soteriological necessity of The Atonement.

The question is therefore begged: how could sins be forgiven if there yet was no ‘forgiveness of sins’?

Students of the doctrine of The Immaculate Conception will find little mystery in the question above, for they necessarily recognize the eternal context of The Cross (i.e. The Blessed Mother was redeemed - pre-conception - through the merits of the yet-to-occur Messianic Passion). In other words, The Crucifixion resonates in every dimension, forward and backward and without limit. Adam can be forgiven as assuredly as the last man to be born before the consummation of creation, solely because Christ’s Sacrifice was satisfactory for ALL sin.

Given the above theological premise it reasonably follows that, in order for Christ to effect an eternal reality, He Himself must BE eternal. Eternity IS God - the word simply has no practical definition divorced from that context - and as such is inaccessible to man in his temporal essence. It is for this reason that The Atonement ultimately required the action of the God-Man, for although restitution was required of humankind, only Divinity possessed the requisite capability for supplying it. In other words, the old Christian apothegm rings true: “Jesus paid a debt He did not owe because we owed a debt we could not pay”.

The thesis, then, is this: if had Jesus lacked either nature, then He could not have been the Saviour that Christianity hails Him to be.
 
Dan_Parker said:
I don’t agree for at least two reasons:
  1. Grammar
The word “him” needs an antecedent. An antecedent comes from either the nearest previous subject or less frequently the subject in context. Grammatically the antecedent will match the pronoun in case, number and gender.

In this context the word “him” would naturally refer to God. If Jesus was in a previous verse you might have a point, but it is not. In addition if a part of the discourse was lacking a noun for the antecedent, then it would be natural to look forward to it. This actually happens from verse 5 on, see below.
  1. Discourse
At verse 4 there is a natural break in the discourse where the subjects change. John speaks about himself and Christians who are children of God. Then the discourse changes to people in general who sin and act wickedly. The subject has changed.
NJB 1 John 3:4 Whoever sins, acts wickedly, because all sin is wickedness.

John next introduces Jesus for a reason:
NJB 1 John 3:5 Now you are well aware that he has appeared in order to take sins away, and that in him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in him sins, and whoever sins has neither seen him nor recognised him.

But John does not include himself and other children of God in the class of these sinners because in this passage because those who remain in Jesus do not sin and John and other children of God are remaining in Jesus.

In conclusion, I agree that this is a difficult text because of the many pronouns. However in Greek the natural way to understand a pronoun like “him” is that it refers to the most recent antecedent. In addition the discourse changes in verse 4 which is a natural break and allows for a new subject.
Click to expand...
JL: 1Jn 2:28 And now, dear children, continue in HIM, so that when **HE APPEARS **we may be confident and unashamed before HIM AT HIS COMING. 29 If you know that HE is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of HIM.] Whom are we to continue IN? Jesus. Who is to appear? Jesus. Who will be COMING? Jesus.

[1Jn 3:1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know HIM. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of GOD, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when HE APPEARS, we shall be like HIM, for we shall see HIM **as HE is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as HE is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that HE appeared so that HE might take away our sins. And in HIM is no sin. 6 No one who lives in HIM keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen HIM or known HIM. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as HE is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason THE SON OF GOD APPEARED was to destroy the devil’s work.]

You are correct it is speaking of God and Jesus is God, HIM. As God he is our father, as MAN he is our brother. When he appears, who will appear? Jesus.

[Rv1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. 7 Look, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see him, EVEN THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. 8 “I AM THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA,” SAYS THE LORD GOD, “who is, and who was, and WHO IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY.”]

Who is to come? The Lord God the Almighty. Who was Pierced? The Alpha and the Omega. Who is the Alpha and the Omega? Jesus and every eye will see HIM even those who PIERCED HIM.

Jn 1:1 IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, and THE WORD WAS GOD. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; WITHOUT HIM **nothing was made **THAT HAS BEEN MADE. 4 IN HIM WAS LIFE, and that life was the light of men.

1Jn1:1 That which was FROM THE BEGINNING, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning THE WORD OF LIFE. 2 THE LIFE APPEARED; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you THE ETERNAL LIFE, WHICH WAS WITH THE FATHER and HAS APPEARED TO US.

Col 1:15 HE IS THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For BY HIM ALL THINGS WERE CREATED: things IN HEAVEN and ON EARTH, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM and for him. 17 He is before all things, and IN HIM ALL THINGS HOLD TOGETHER

[NIV used all caps and bold print added by me.]
 
Sunflower15 said:
Sidenote: I once heard that from the point of view of humans, Jesus is the Son of God, but from the point of view of God, Jesus is the Son of Man…which He also claims to be. Notice how both of His natures: fully God, fully Man, are revealed this way.
Click to expand...
Another side note:

I just found that the Bible tells us why Jesus is called the Son of God:

Luke 1
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.”
 
Another big change in how we view the big picture when reading the Bible if Jesus is God:

In John 19 verse 10
Pilate says to Jesus,“Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”

Jesus says he only has that authority because God gave it to him.
Now if Jesus is God, the Pilate had authority over God!
Now that really changes things, doesn’t it? A man with authority over God.
 
Another big change in how we view the big picture when reading the Bible if Jesus is God:

In John 19 verse 10
Pilate says to Jesus,“Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”

Jesus says he only has that authority because God gave it to him.
Now if Jesus is God, then Pilate had authority over God!
Now that really changes things, doesn’t it? A man with authority over God.
 
Martin_R said:
Another big change in how we view the big picture when reading the Bible if Jesus is God:

In John 19 verse 10
Pilate says to Jesus,“Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?”

Jesus says he only has that authority because God gave it to him.
Now if Jesus is God, then Pilate had authority over God!
Now that really changes things, doesn’t it? A man with authority over God.
Click to expand...
But Jesus allowed himself to be crucified… not because of any authority of Pilates. But because He was the Chosen Sacrifice.
 
NotWorthy said:
But Jesus allowed himself to be crucified… not because of any authority of Pilates. But because He was the Chosen Sacrifice.
Click to expand...
and that leads me to another change in how the Bible reads if Jesus is God:

Genesis 22:
A lamb is usually sacrificed** to** God and when Abraham’s son asks, “where is the sacrifice?”
Abraham says, “God will provide for Himself the lamb”, which we now know is Jesus.

But if Jesus is God, God is the sacrifice.
But the Bible says, “God will provide the sacrifice”, not God will be the sacrifice.
 
Martin_R said:
and that leads me to another change in how the Bible reads if Jesus is God:

Genesis 22:
A lamb is usually sacrificed** to** God and when Abraham’s son asks, “where is the sacrifice?”
Abraham says, “God will provide for Himself the lamb”, which we now know is Jesus.

But if Jesus is God, God is the sacrifice.
But the Bible says, “God will provide the sacrifice”, not God will be the sacrifice.
Click to expand...
God “will provide” the Sacrifice in the form of His own son. Just because God provides the Sacrifice, doesn’t mean that God can’t be the sacrifice.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top