Is Jesus God?

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huskerfanbb

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I have always been under the impression that according to Catholic doctrine as described by the various creeds, including the Athanasian, that Jesus Christ IS God.

I am in a discussion with a lapsed Catholic who is adamant that while Jesus is the SON of God, he is not, in fact, God, and neither is the Holy Spirit for that matter. They do regard them as part of the trinity (which is bizarre given their other stance), but not as God.
 
Yes, according to Catholic (and Orthodox, and most Protestant-at least historically speaking) teaching ,Jesus Christ is indeed truly God, while also being truly man. Also, according to Catholic (and Orthodox, and most Protestant-at least historically speaking) teaching, the Holy Spirit is truly God.
 
As you can see, I’m Lutheran, and know Lutheran doctrine on the subject.

I had always thought that despite some deep theological differences between Lutheranism and Catholicism, the core beliefs concerning the divinity of Christ were very similar, if not exactly the same. Both Lutherans and Catholics subscribe to the Athanasian Creed as far as I know–which clearly states the Church doctrine that Jesus IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God.

I was very confused by this person who, while not being a practicing Catholic for quite some time, was raised Catholic and was very adamant that Jesus was NOT God according to Catholic doctrine.
 
Keeping in mind that God id pure Spirit, with no material substance:
God the Father is fully God; and knows Himself totally.

God the Son is the Father`s Selfknowledge; and possesses the fullness of the Godhead because everything that the Father is is “contained” in His Selfknowledge.

Between the Father and the Son, there is TOTAL Self-giving Love: in both directions.
God the Holy Spirit is that Love; and possesses the fullness of the Godhead because everything that the Father is and everything that the Son is in that Love.

Again: remember that were dealing with a Being whose essence or nature is spirit "only"; and so, doesnt occupy space.

Jesus is fully God as the Second Person of the Trinity ,or Son of the Father; and as a person, Hes the Son. He also fully possesses a human nature, complete with body and soul. So, Hes fully God and fully Man.

PS
Huskerfan:
Your confusion expressed in your last sentence is understandable; but youre "witnessing" the woeful state of current "Catholic" "catechesis"! :shrug: In most places, its worse than pathetic; and there are so many ex-Catholics like the one mentioned, who think they know all about Catholicism. The ranks of the JWs, SDAs et al are full of them, complete with their new-found, but actually horribly skewed, “Bible ‘knowledge’”.
 
I am in a discussion with a lapsed Catholic who is adamant that while Jesus is the SON of God, he is not, in fact, God, and neither is the Holy Spirit for that matter. They do regard them as part of the trinity (which is bizarre given their other stance), but not as God.
This person is wrong, though he may just be confused a bit. He may mean that Jesus is not the Father, which is true. But Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are very much God.
 
This person is wrong, though he may just be confused a bit. He may mean that Jesus is not the Father, which is true. But Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are very much God.
Well, they are confused. They even posted a link to this site:

[

and then insisted that it was proof that Catholic doctrine was that Jesus was NOT God.

I don’t see how they can have that interpretation from reading through the information in that link.

That is the official Catholic position, right?](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm)
 
I have always been under the impression that according to Catholic doctrine as described by the various creeds, including the Athanasian, that Jesus Christ IS God.

I am in a discussion with a lapsed Catholic who is adamant that while Jesus is the SON of God, he is not, in fact, God, and neither is the Holy Spirit for that matter. They do regard them as part of the trinity (which is bizarre given their other stance), but not as God.
Hi huskerfanbb,

Well – first of all, I wouldn’t get my information from any lapsed Catholic, since any knowledgable Catholic would NEVER lapse. 🙂

Second, Jesus Christ IS God. He is the second person of the Trinity. God is one being, three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In Genesis God says “Let us make man in our image” – note the “us” as plural. God is called in Exodus the “I AM”, and in the Gospels, Jesus says “I AM”. He is also the Alpha and Omega, and Jesus, the Lamb of God, is also the Alpha and Omega, because God is one.
 
P.S.

The Gospel of John says it very well:

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

The Word = God
the Word was with God = Second person of Trinity
The Word created all things =God the Creator, our Father
The true light = Jesus
The Word became flesh = Jesus
Jesus = Son of God the Father, as well as son of man, through Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
 
Anyone who labels himself or herself Catholic and says Jesus is not God is thereby not Catholic. A Catholic, by definition, and by canon law, believes everything the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church teaches. The Church teaches that Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. This is the core doctrine of Christianity. Those who do not believe in the Trinity, as defined by the Catholic Church, are not Christian.

Jim Dandy
 
P.S.

The Gospel of John says it very well:

John 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being 4 in him was life, and the life was the light of all people. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it.

9 The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through him; yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to what was his own, and his own people did not accept him. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood or of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father’s only son, full of grace and truth.

The Word = God
the Word was with God = Second person of Trinity
The Word created all things =God the Creator, our Father
The true light = Jesus
The Word became flesh = Jesus
Jesus = Son of God the Father, as well as son of man, through Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.
I like that, although interpreted differently.

In my view, and how it was taught to me,

God=Father
Word=Jesus Christ

Or maybe that is what you are basically saying.
 
I like that, although interpreted differently.

In my view, and how it was taught to me,

God=Father
Word=Jesus Christ

Or maybe that is what you are basically saying.
yep! 🙂

And also because Jesus said, “He who sees me sees the Father”

John 12: 44 And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And he who sees me sees him who sent me.

John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
 
This person is wrong, though he may just be confused a bit. He may mean that Jesus is not the Father, which is true. But Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are very much God.
Right. 6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God*** something to be grasped***,7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man,he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! 9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

Even in John 17, it states “3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.”

John 17 - is a wonderful passage to this!
 
I have always been under the impression that according to Catholic doctrine as described by the various creeds, including the Athanasian, that Jesus Christ IS God.

I am in a discussion with a lapsed Catholic who is adamant that while Jesus is the SON of God, he is not, in fact, God, and neither is the Holy Spirit for that matter. They do regard them as part of the trinity (which is bizarre given their other stance), but not as God.
Good morning huskerfanbb,

You’re right. Other than supporting your stand, and encouraging to you pray the Holy Spirit to lead you in talking with this person and you opening up to God the Holy Spirit, and my praying for you, other than that, I don’t know how to help you.

God loves you,
Don
 
I like that, although interpreted differently.

In my view, and how it was taught to me,

God=Father
Word=Jesus Christ

Or maybe that is what you are basically saying.
If you read what was put at Post #4, youll pick up the basics of it! Its true, but it`s being discounted/ignored for some reason… 🤷
Does it look too alien…or what?

In Saint Johns Gospel, the word "Word" is "Logos" in Greek; and it means a thought or an idea: ie God the Fathers “idea” of Himself: ie His Selfknowledge!
In his first epistle, Saint John says: “God is Love.” (1 John 4:8) ie the Holy Spirit is Love.

Each of the three Persons possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
It`s not a mathematical problem of trying to say that 1=3, and 3=1, because God is Spirit: utterly simple, indivisible Essence or Nature
 
I have always been under the impression that according to Catholic doctrine as described by the various creeds, including the Athanasian, that Jesus Christ IS God.

I am in a discussion with a lapsed Catholic who is adamant that while Jesus is the SON of God, he is not, in fact, God, and neither is the Holy Spirit for that matter. They do regard them as part of the trinity (which is bizarre given their other stance), but not as God.
Please read Jn.1-1-3,18 , Jn,8:58 reads "I tell you the truth, Jesus answered,
"before Araham was born , “I am.” See also Ex.3:13-15

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God , and the Word was God.2. he was with God in the beginning. 3. through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made,

Col.1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. for by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth. 16. For by him all things were created…
You can check the meaning of these verses on the PC, Go to a bible commentary.

God bless,
bluelake

PS. The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4 The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy
Trinity. 🙂
 
If you read what was put at Post #4, youll pick up the basics of it! Its true, but it`s being discounted/ignored for some reason… 🤷
Does it look too alien…or what?

In Saint Johns Gospel, the word "Word" is "Logos" in Greek; and it means a thought or an idea: ie God the Fathers “idea” of Himself: ie His Selfknowledge!
In his first epistle, Saint John says: “God is Love.” (1 John 4:8) ie the Holy Spirit is Love.

Each of the three Persons possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
It`s not a mathematical problem of trying to say that 1=3, and 3=1, because God is Spirit: utterly simple, indivisible Essence or Nature
Which is something to be grasped, the meaning is that to grip (something) firmly with or as if with the hands but in this case, we are to grasp the meaning (or the understanding)- the wisdom of God, as our soul and spirit will take in what is becoming visible, Hebrews 11, “1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible. . 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

When the angel Gabriel came to Mary, he had greeted her with the announcement, “28 , “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

It is within the next verse that we “also” can connect with her feelings, “29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.” again, this greeting that the angel pronounced to Mary was something beyond her understanding of what was being said - as to be understood (to take in) and received (within her soul)– but God Spirit, like with Moses or Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob was with Mary (Genesis 26, ““I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you” and again, 29 “You are now the blessed of the LORD.”) In the song of Mary, the Spirit of God is within her (overshadowing her – or in other words, hoovers over the waters) and the soul is magnified (meaning “increasing the size or apparent size of something” or To “magnify” means to “make great,” and then to “extol,” - also meaning that the soul has been lifted up, so the soul and spirit are lifted together…). The thought is in Luke 1:46, the soul receives God’s word and spirit takes action – by rejoicing, and within the same gesture, we receive and rejoice in the Lord when He is present in us, and we become alive in Christ.

Remember what the Apostle Paul said in Ephesians 5:13 “But everything exposed by the light becomes visible, 14for it is light that makes everything visible. This is why it is said:
“Wake up, O*sleeper, rise from the dead,and Christ will shine on you.”

Then in Luke 1, when Mary went to visit Elizabeth, the same occurrence happened when Elizabeth “heard” Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb – and then Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed…” and at the birth of Jesus, the angel praised God (Gloria in excelsis Deo)– same as the Hosanna:

From the Louw-Nida Lexicon: hosanna (an Aramaic expression meaning “help, I pray” or “save, I pray,” but which had become a strictly liturgical formula of praise) a shout of praise or adoration - “hosanna; blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord” Mark 11.9; “hosanna in the highest” Mark 11.10; “hosanna to the Son of David” Matt 21:9. Mt 21.9 may also be rendered as “praise to you, Son of David” or “we praise you who are the Son of David” or “…a descendant of David.”
 
Please read Jn.1-1-3,18 , Jn,8:58 reads "I tell you the truth, Jesus answered,
"before Araham was born , “I am.” See also Ex.3:13-15

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with
God , and the Word was God.2. he was with God in the beginning. 3. through him all things were made without him nothing was made that has been made,

Col.1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. for by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth. 16. For by him all things were created…
You can check the meaning of these verses on the PC, Go to a bible commentary.

God bless,
bluelake

PS. The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3-4 The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Holy
Trinity. 🙂
And the P.S. you left - is on target.

Continued:

and the verse states, “9 But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20 The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.” and then when both parents presented Jesus at the temple, it was Simeon who had been waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. 26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. Again, the Spirit of God – was on (or from within) Simeon – and naturally he exclaimed the prophecy. All this is something to be grasped, like with Mary (Highly favored One), Joseph ( it was written “how” he marveled at the presentation), Elizabeth, Zechariah (both who walked blamelessly before God), the shepherd boy – the Wisemen who traveled far, Anna and Simeon. And the end remark after the presentation, “33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35 so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. (Ephesians 5:14,"for it is light that makes everything visible.)edit And a sword will pierce your own soul too.” 36 There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. 38 Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.

This is all something to be grasp – but we need the help of God to understand it. (See Acts of the Apostle - the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2:1-4 “2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave 5 them utterance.)
 
If you read what was put at Post #4, youll pick up the basics of it! Its true, but it`s being discounted/ignored for some reason… 🤷
Does it look too alien…or what?

In Saint Johns Gospel, the word "Word" is "Logos" in Greek; and it means a thought or an idea: ie God the Fathers “idea” of Himself: ie His Selfknowledge!
In his first epistle, Saint John says: “God is Love.” (1 John 4:8) ie the Holy Spirit is Love.

Each of the three Persons possesses the fullness of the Godhead.
It`s not a mathematical problem of trying to say that 1=3, and 3=1, because God is Spirit: utterly simple, indivisible Essence or Nature
6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! Philippians 2

“God saw that we worship things created; He put on a created body, that in our custom he might capture us” (Ephraim the Syrian: Hymns of the Nativity ). It is awe-inspiring to feel that in this feast God captures us. So much of our activity is geared to capturing the love and respect of others by all we do during this special season. But to be captured by God humbles yet empowers us to act in the presence of such a mystery. Indeed, we needed to be captured by God through his Son, Jesus Christ; without being captured we could not be free and liberated.

There are many ways in which we continually need to be captured by God. Our fears need to be captured to turn them into hope; our pettiness into generosity; our struggles with forgiveness into acceptance; our need to control into openness; our anger into gentleness; our speaking into listening. To be captured by God necessitates a change in our hearts and minds, which is difficult. May this special feast give us the courage and boldness to do just that.

We are in the midst of celebrating the “Year of the Eucharist.” The Divine Liturgy is the concrete expression of the mystery of the incarnation. The Word of God takes human nature through which God and humanity are united. The Divine Liturgy is the center of our lives and from it flows the ability not only to be captured by Christ but also to become united with him by partaking of his body and blood. A unity that is so intimate that “all of us who become partakers of this one bread and cup may be united with one another in the communion of the one Holy Spirit” (Anaphora of St. Basil). It is a perfect time to reflect on being captured by God in the Eucharist. LINK

Beautifully written is this sermon:
“Today, heaven and earth unite, for Christ is born. Today, God comes to earth in the flesh and the human race is lifted up tot he heavens.” (Night Service Sticherion) Today God comes to the holy and unholy; the righteous must not judge those who have fallen. Today God comes as a servant, inviting all to participate in the washing of each other’s feet. Today the God of creation becomes poor for our sake, directing those who have more to share with those who have less. Today God comes forth as love, to be freely accepted by everyone. Today God comes in the person of Jesus Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch encourages us to “look for him who is above time – the timeless, the invisible, who for our sake became visible.”
 
6 Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing,taking the very nature of a servant,being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself and became obedient to death—even death on a cross! Philippians 2
To be able to fully understand the meaning of the quoted Scripture passage, you have to have a grasp of the essence or nature of God. Most of Scripture is written from the perspective of us created beings who are subject to space and time.

As a person, Jesus is FULLY GOD, the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity. Nothing can alter that Truth. The humbling is accomplished by taking on a fully human nature, with a fully human body which was subject to death.

During His time on this earth, the Son was (is: in the eternal tense) still fully God. His Divinity didnt decrease in some way. From Gods perspective, there`s no before and after: just the eternal NOW.
God is immutable. He IS in one eternal act of BEING.
 
To be able to fully understand the meaning of the quoted Scripture passage, you have to have a grasp of the essence or nature of God. Most of Scripture is written from the perspective of us created beings who are subject to space and time.

As a person, Jesus is FULLY GOD, the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity. Nothing can alter that Truth. The humbling is accomplished by taking on a fully human nature, with a fully human body which was subject to death.

During His time on this earth, the Son was (is: in the eternal tense) still fully God. His Divinity didnt decrease in some way. From Gods perspective, there`s no before and after: just the eternal NOW.
God is immutable. He IS in one eternal act of BEING.
“Who, being in very nature God,did not consider equality with God something to be grasped”

You didn’t read the post very well and I wasn’t criticizing. In scripture it is understood from the perspective of Luke, that Mary was troubled about the announcement and also how she could have a child - but she was obedient and trusted in God plan for the promise to be fulfilled through her, and again,at the birth of Christ - scripture stated that Mary had treasured up the event and pondered them in her heart, and at the presentation in the temple, both parents, Mary and Joseph had marveled over what was being said - “33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him."

A miracle is being born - the Son of God, who became human and yet came forth from God (The Word of God - as in creation) - being divine. In the meaning to be grasped, and as Paul expressed it, was to seize or to take a hold of… - to understand. It would be the equivalency of Peter, who proclaimed to Jesus that he was the anointed one, the Son of God. Jesus made it clear to Peter that it was the Spirit of God who had revealed that to him. (21 I learned both what is secret and what is manifest - book of Wisdom ) - and as the passage continues, Jesus gives to Peters “the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will beg loosed in heaven.” 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.”

Yes, it is difficult to grasp and that’s why I ended the thread with only with God’s help can we understand it - perhaps not grasp . The fact that miracles are present - it is with God’s help that we can take the event in. In Exodus and the parting of the sea of reeds, God said to Moses, “why are you crying to me - Raise your staff and stretch out your hand over the sea to divide the water so that the Israelites can go through the sea on dry ground.” - the mind and the soul have to connect to the thought. We know that when God enters are lives - it with the thought that the word of God is heard internally and the rejoicing happens externally. God’s Spirit & Word is active and alive from within!

Peace
Mary

and I won’t your post anymore. Very Sorry!
 
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