Is Jonah and the Whale a fictitious story?

[Annc]

**But had Jesus instead talked in formal treatises with the aristotalian precision, He would have had to teach a whole Bible for every weightily sentence He spoke and the world couldn’t hold this literature (Joh 21,25).
Take your sample:

They brought an adulteress before Jesus. Jesus first didn’t say a word. Sitting there, He drew figures in the sand. That meant a lot; like “it is again same thing… You accusing others in a matter of no concern to you, looking at the speck of sawdust in other’s eye, paying no attention to the plank in your own eye!”

Now; penalty for adultery was death by stoning. Had Jesus said; “forget your law and leave her alone” as they hoped, Jesus would clearly have broken the law and they had received a handle to accuse and sue Jesus – crucify Him before His time had come.

But again, Jesus read their character and defeated their intrigues by not teaching them (us) in “aristotalian precision” right and wrong, but instead He said just one sentence: Joh 8,7 - “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Now they couldn’t do either. Neither stone her, nor accuse Jesus of breaking the law. And they left ashamed.

That’s the reason, why Jesus made few words, but such He told us a world more, than if He had in “aristotalian precision” given a lecture of 10 pages nobody would listen to, and the worse had happened.
**

You really should read Dei Verbum, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation.

This back and forth insistence that everything in the Bible is literally true is just not part of Catholic teaching and that does not take away from the religious and moral truth contained in the Bible.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**What on my above posting tells you, that I insist that every word in the Bible is literally true?

It is literally true if you are able to understand metaphors.
It is not literally true only then, if lack of understanding forces you to translate word by word.

If I tell you it rains at the moment cats and dogs here; would you think this animals fall from heaven? But inspite: It’s true. Literally!
**

 

[Annc]

**What on my above posting tells you, that I insist that every word in the Bible is literally true?

It is literally true if you are able to understand metaphors.
It is not literally true only then, if lack of understanding forces you to translate word by word.

If I tell you it rains at the moment cats and dogs here; would you think this animals fall from heaven? But inspite: It’s true. Literally!
**

I’m sorry but you have several posts that I find rather confusing. You seem to say one thing and then another. I guess I just don’t understand your posts. We can just leave it at that. I don’t want to argue over each and everyword said which is what it would take to unravel it all. I will just have to remain puzzled.

Thank you.

 

[po18guy]

Yes it does - fiction is a perfectly valid vehicle for revelation. And referring to fictional stories as examples is a perfectly valid teaching method. The church dogmatically states that the truth contained in scripture is presented in many different literary forms, not all of which are literal history.

I must say that Jesus referred to real persons, places and things. His references to Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and others were actual persons. His references to Sodom, Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon, for example were also actual, physical locations. By referring to a “fictional” Jonah, He would have been mocked and ridiculed specifically because of that. The Pharisees, who disputed everything that Christ said, did not dispute Him when He told them they would receive only the sign of Jonah.

Even the Pharisees believed in the Book of Jonah. What has happened to our corrupt and evil generation? Have we not even the faith of the Pharisees? Do we doubt Christ when He said “all things are possible to God”?

 

[Annc]

Even the Pharisees believed in the Book of Jonah. What has happened to our corrupt and evil generation? Have we not even the faith of the Pharisees? Do we doubt Christ when He said “all things are possible to God”?

Are you saying that anyone who may not believe that Jonah was in the belly of a real, live whale, is evil and corrupt? Hope not.

Of course all things are possible for God. No one said it couldn’t happen just that it may be a metaphor or it may be true. Either way we can believe the religious and moral truth of the story. I have no idea if it was a whale, a great fish or just a huge problem that had him trapped. And it doesn’t matter.
Not to me anyway.

That said, you are free to believe every word of Bible as being literally true if you like. If you want to believe that Jonah was in the belly of a whale, great. So, what is the point of the story? Does the point of the story change if the whale was a metaphor? How so? Would your faith be shaken if it was metaphor? (no judgement here just asking)

Please don’t question anyone’s faith or character based on this thread.

 

[po18guy]

Are you saying that anyone who may not believe that Jonah was in the belly of a real, live whale, is evil and corrupt? Hope not.

First, the term ‘whale’ is likely not correct. The most anyone can say is that it was a large sea creature. Man exists. Sea creatures exist. Consider: By the command of God, the universe came into being from nothing. By the command of God, the virgin conceived our Savior. So, by the command of God, a man cannot be swallowed by a sea creature and spat out upon the shore? Jonah should be a piece of cake after we believe the story of creation and the annunciation.

I am only trying to shoot down the “fiction” argument. It would not have worked for Christ, since He was not believed by the religious authorities of the day. Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. This ‘fiction’ theory tends to place Him in the liar section, no?

 

[dkdempsey]

It’s an allegory or story to teach a religious or spiritual truth. Yes, it is a fictitious story, but one with the intention of religious/spiritual instruction or teaching, not an historical event. This is common here and there throughout the Bible.

 

[patg]

I am only trying to shoot down the “fiction” argument. It would not have worked for Christ, since He was not believed by the religious authorities of the day. Jesus was either liar, lunatic or Lord. This ‘fiction’ theory tends to place Him in the liar section, no?

No - referencing a fictional story to make a teaching point is perfectly logical and has nothing to do with lying.

If I tell my child that if he doesn’t stick to the task, he might end up losing like the hare did when racing the tortoise, I am not telling him that there was a real race between the two animals nor am I telling a lie. Rather, I am using a familiar fictional story to make a teaching point.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**No, it’s not fiction, but as I in several posts tried to explain, SOMETIMES metaphor. The many similes Jesus told, could all have happened exactly so, and all of them did happen exactly this way then, and in our days.
Now, Ecclesiates “the teacher” as he called himself, who is very often mistaken) wrote there a book of reflection on his time. That’s why there it’s written: “The dead do not know anything, for they are dead” - I mentioned this in the thread
„Praying for the dead“
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…8&goto=newpost
and -for they are dead- that’s what pagans of his time, as well as among us believe then as today.

Later however, Kohelet gets to conclusions and solutions that wiped that narrow views away and return to strong faith in God.

As I explained before; Jonah very easily could have been in another trap as he was quite renitent towards God before - if we take the wale as “fiction” and he described it as “whale” - which then is no fiction, but simile. Namely as a whale lived there (the deepness of the sea, where at Jonahs time, all horrors thinkable lived). Such horror is being renitent against God - not obeying His law and doubting - in other words to live without God, which really is the horrors of being alone amidst all ghoulish situations - like thinking great parts of the bible is fiction - compared to that, it’s even a nice holiday being inside a whale .

Another very important point however is; that additionally Jonah predicted widely Jesus coming and Jesus death and resurrection within 3 days (simile of 3 days in the whale).
**

 

[Thoarite]

Matt. 12:40, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”
Why would he speak of Jonah in that way to his disciples except to prepare them for his own death and resurrection also. I read Jonah and he died there, and was resurrected in 3 days. Jonah 2,5 " The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head" To THE SOUL and that to me is death. And Jonah 2 said From the depths of the grave I called for help
It says he cried from “Out of the belly of Sheol” not just in the fish belly. The Hebrew word for belly of Sheol is not the belly of the fish, So, It appears to me his body remained in the fish and his soul departed it. When the whale vomited him on shore as god commanded it, Then the word of the Lord told him to arise. somebody show me how in any way it shows jonah lived in that fish.

 

[brb3]

Jonah was a Prophet, and well known to the Jewish elite in days of Jesus. When Jesus quoted Jonah, speaking of him as a historical person … the Jews did not correct/contest with Jesus, in regards to Jonah being a mythical figure in Jewish OT scripture.

 

[Crumpy]

I have a Catholic children’s bible. At the end of each story, there is a commentary. My son was reading the story of Jonah and the Whale. The commentary stated that according to St. Gregory Nazianzen, the story of Jonah and the whale was a parable to encourage the Israelites to become missionaries. Has anyone heard of this before? Is it just a parable?

i’ve been reading Jewish commentaries for a couple years and the Jewish Publication Society has a small volume on this book.

There was no suggestion in this commentary to support that idea of the Israelites becoming missionaries.

This commentary has a lot of different ideas about what it going on, and there is no one preponderant theory about the book of Jonah. It is probably most relevant to point out that the book of Jonah is a major reading on the holiest feastday of the Jewish calendar, Yom Kippur, the day of Atonement.

The main point of that is to inspire Jews to repent of their sins on this day of Atonement with the assurance that God’s mercy will prevail over His judgment.​

Someone has referred to Jesus’ mention that the only sign He would give the Jews was the sign of Jonah. Now, as best as I can tell, this is referring to His resurrection from the dead, as Jonah was recovered from the belly of the fish.

Is there another sign? It seems that everybody repents in the book of Jonah. Jonah finally repents and goes back to do God’s bidding and warn the people of Ninevah. The gentiles on the boat repent; as I recall (didn’t verify this tonight), they repent and pray to Jonah’s God. Then, the people of Ninevah repent, and they are spared by God. Heck, even the whale repents and spews Jonah back on to land !! So, Jesus may be saying that His sacrifice and death on the cross is an atonement for the sins of the world; if people would just repent, God will show His mercy.

 

[patrick457]

Is there another sign? It seems that everybody repents in the book of Jonah. Jonah finally repents and goes back to do God’s bidding and warn the people of Ninevah. The gentiles on the boat repent; as I recall (didn’t verify this tonight), they repent and pray to Jonah’s God. Then, the people of Ninevah repent, and they are spared by God. Heck, even the whale repents and spews Jonah back on to land !! So, Jesus may be saying that His sacrifice and death on the cross is an atonement for the sins of the world; if people would just repent, God will show His mercy.

If it was a whale.
Every character in the book does seem to ‘repent’ in some fashion (God, the Ninevites, the men in the boat, and even the fish!), as you mentioned: all except for Jonah.

 

[edwest2]

In Catholic school, I was taught that this literally happened. It matters, since it’s brought up here on a regular basis.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TMC]

Somewhat off topic, but I recently re-read Moby Dick. One of the early chapters in the book is a sermon on the topic of Jonah. The preacher retells the story from Jonah hiring passage to the time he is spit out on the shores of Nineveh, and then explains what this should mean to all of us in our own lives. A great sermon and worth checking out - you can even read it on-line here:

princeton.edu/~batke/moby/moby_009.html

 

[vera_dicere]

I have no doubt that Jonah existed, and that he ignored God and then accepted Him.

But I think its a load of rubbish to think he lived inside a whale. God gave us brains, to think a man lived in a whale is an insult to that brain and to the God who gave it to us. Its 2011, we’re not longer constrained to a society of essentially illiterate goat herders living in a desert.

Jonah is not God, so his doings can’t be compared to Christ.

Just like Adam and Eve, and the whole world flood with Noah et al, Jonah is a nice story to tell children that has an underlying moral message. It didn’t really happen.

 

[edwest2]

I have no doubt that Jonah existed, and that he ignored God and then accepted Him.

But I think its a load of rubbish to think he lived inside a whale. God gave us brains, to think a man lived in a whale is an insult to that brain and to the God who gave it to us. Its 2011, we’re not longer constrained to a society of essentially illiterate goat herders living in a desert.

Jonah is not God, so his doings can’t be compared to Christ.

Just like Adam and Eve, and the whole world flood with Noah et al, Jonah is a nice story to tell children that has an underlying moral message. It didn’t really happen.

No, Jonah is not God but God has raised people from the dead, gave sight to the blind and cleansed the lepers without science and technology.

The Mass was first celebrated among the illiterate goat herders. Science is not God.

peace,
Ed

 

[NotWorthy]

I have no doubt that Jonah existed, and that he ignored God and then accepted Him.

But I think its a load of rubbish to think he lived inside a whale. God gave us brains, to think a man lived in a whale is an insult to that brain and to the God who gave it to us. Its 2011, we’re not longer constrained to a society of essentially illiterate goat herders living in a desert.

Jonah is not God, so his doings can’t be compared to Christ.

I’m confused by this statement. Jonah WAS COMPARED to Christ… by Christ Himself!!!

So how can you claim otherwise?

 

[Scotsrob]

If you go back to the original Hebrew text and look at it carefully, then it was a SHIP that took Jonah into it’s hold for 3 days, then set him on land after that. My Bible clearly states that, and the footnote says as follows: ‘Whale’ was a mis-translation of a ship called ‘Great Fish’. In the Bible version of the Greek translators, whose blunder has been repeated by all subsequent translators, in all languages, to the perplexity of their readers, until I decided to go back to the original statement of the prophet in his own Hebrew. ‘Commentary by Ferrar Fenton’ (Ferrar Fenton Bible, P 624)

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I have a Catholic children’s bible. At the end of each story, there is a commentary. My son was reading the story of Jonah and the Whale. The commentary stated that according to St. Gregory Nazianzen, the story of Jonah and the whale was a parable to encourage the Israelites to become missionaries. Has anyone heard of this before? Is it just a parable?

Maybe it’s fiction, maybe it’s not,
but this is one of those instances
of “What is the point God is trying
to get across?”