One of the reasons societies are in a right mess today.
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Salvatore123
Guest
“Isn’t the whole point that Jesus can save anyone he wants?”
This illustrates why the words we use are so important.
One must always distinguish between ability to do something, willingness to do something, and a certainty of how one will do something.
God obviously has the ability to do anything, including evil.
God is always willing to help those who want to help themselves through HIM.
But God has actually “set” parameters that even He will not break - such as separating Himself from love. God, from a purely “ability” standpoint", can forego love and be selfish and be completely unto Himself. But for God to do anything other than that associated with and resulting in an expression of Love would make God out to be a liar, and - again, not for want of ability, but because of God’s own “parameters” He set for Himself - God will not lie, and I will go so far as to say “cannot” lie, because of the certainty with which God acts.
God is the only being in existence who acts with such certainty that we can ascribe a 100% certainty to how He will act. Even though he has the ability to act otherwise, we KNOW he never will.
That is the one true thing that keeps man apart from God and why we have to continue working at being with Him: we can count on God with 100% certainty that he will love us no matter what we do. Man, however, cannot be counted on 100% because man “slides” backward throughout life and we simply do not have the “power” of God to keep our hearts and minds on the straight and narrow path without ever falling away.
Many people do not realize that it was never NECESSARY for God to sacrifice Jesus for man’s redemption. God “could” have simply chosen to NOT forgive man and be done with us, or He could have chosen to simply say “I forgive you” and not allowed his son to suffer at all.
Instead, God chose the absolutely perfect manner in which to redeem man: to forgive and show just how much he loved us, all at the same time. Think about it: who else but God could have “thought” of such a singularly unique manner in which to convey love and forgiveness in one act - the act of sacrificing one’s self for another?
This illustrates why the words we use are so important.
One must always distinguish between ability to do something, willingness to do something, and a certainty of how one will do something.
God obviously has the ability to do anything, including evil.
God is always willing to help those who want to help themselves through HIM.
But God has actually “set” parameters that even He will not break - such as separating Himself from love. God, from a purely “ability” standpoint", can forego love and be selfish and be completely unto Himself. But for God to do anything other than that associated with and resulting in an expression of Love would make God out to be a liar, and - again, not for want of ability, but because of God’s own “parameters” He set for Himself - God will not lie, and I will go so far as to say “cannot” lie, because of the certainty with which God acts.
God is the only being in existence who acts with such certainty that we can ascribe a 100% certainty to how He will act. Even though he has the ability to act otherwise, we KNOW he never will.
That is the one true thing that keeps man apart from God and why we have to continue working at being with Him: we can count on God with 100% certainty that he will love us no matter what we do. Man, however, cannot be counted on 100% because man “slides” backward throughout life and we simply do not have the “power” of God to keep our hearts and minds on the straight and narrow path without ever falling away.
Many people do not realize that it was never NECESSARY for God to sacrifice Jesus for man’s redemption. God “could” have simply chosen to NOT forgive man and be done with us, or He could have chosen to simply say “I forgive you” and not allowed his son to suffer at all.
Instead, God chose the absolutely perfect manner in which to redeem man: to forgive and show just how much he loved us, all at the same time. Think about it: who else but God could have “thought” of such a singularly unique manner in which to convey love and forgiveness in one act - the act of sacrificing one’s self for another?
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JillianRose
Guest
That is true. I remember (I grew up in the 80/90’s) my grandma always saying, “You know God is watching you”!! When ever I would be naughty!! Its true. I miss the old Catholic guilt!!
It kept me straight!! I think I might revive it and start using it on my own children!! lol
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ejp123
Guest
We dont know if Judas confessed in his heart after his betrayal though. I wonder if he committed suicide because of his guilt, shame and remorse over what he did. No sin is greater that the mercy of Christ.
How can you go from guilt and confessing in one’s heart to suicide and then to Heaven?
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ejp123
Guest
Gods mercy is greater than our sin and transcends our logic and comprehension… maybe Judas was sorry for what he did but couldn’t live with the consequences. if he wasn’t sorry or remorseful he probably would have felt comfortable with his choice to betray and would have walked away from the situation at peace with himself. But he clearly did not and was tormented with guilt and shame to point of hanging himself. was he apologetic before? maybe, who knows.
I don’t agree that suicide equals hell if that is what you imply. The Catechism will tell that that is not the case.
This is understandable but he killed himself which would throw any remorse into Jesus’ face.
I understand that anyone no matter how evil they have been in their entire life can still go to Heaven if he repents but to repent and then kill yourself negates the repentance.
Matthew 26:24 The Son of man is going to his fate, as the scriptures say he will, but alas for that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! Better for that man if he had never been born!’
He would not have said this as He knew what Judas would do in the end.
If Judas would have repented and asked for Mercy he would have received it.
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bilop
Guest
Correct.
I don’t know why people are in love with this theory that contradicts the clear words of Christ.
It veers dangerously close to the heresy of universal salavation.
God Bless
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Aleema
Guest
Christ said, Judas is in his own place, and that it was worse for judas to dispair of God’s Mercy than the betrayal.
all he had to do was to beg forgiveness of Jesus, at the point in the garden Christ still called him friend. He dispaired of God’s Mercy he didnt trust the Lord to forgive him.
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ejp123
Guest
Do any of you have compassion and mercy in your heart for Judas?
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ejp123
Guest
Catechism 2283 on suicide. Was Judas exempt from this?
Allow me to explain.
It matters not whether I have compassion or mercy, this happened a long time ago.
If you teach that people who commit suicide go to Heaven or Purgatory instead of Hell you are actually helping people to commit suicide as they have nothing to fear.
Many years ago I was on the very edge of such actions but the thought of Hell was all that stopped me. If I had been an atheist or if I had been taught that I would still go to Purgatory than I would have continued.
Remember the two on the crosses each side of Jesus? One repented but the other did not. One defended Jesus but the other did not. This teaches us that whatever we do in life we can always ask for Mercy and forgiveness and we will receive it.
Judas felt guilty but it was not enough. It is like gambling away the mortgage money, feeling guilty and running away, how does that help your family? Whereas seeking help and forgiveness from your spouse you can together fix the problem and have a happy life.
Judas made a choice after the betrayal and now has to live with it for eternity.
Poor soul, I have compassion for all lost souls but it is too late for them now, better to focus on those who are to die today who will be lost without our prayers.
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cc42
Guest
Daddygirl:
Jesus might have meant that Judas would have gone to heaven if he had died in the womb but now he will have to spend a long time in purgatory.
Jesus might have meant that Judas would have gone to heaven if he had died in the womb but now he will have to spend a long time in purgatory.
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ejp123
Guest
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Salvatore123
Guest
ejp,
As I said in one of my previous posts, NO ONE but God knows the fate of Judas.
The Catholic Church teaches that ONLY those mentioned in the Bible (remember Jesus speaking to those before his death, as witnessed by Peter?) and those proclaimed saints by the Church are in Heaven.
You cite 2238, which states:
“2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”
That being said, OBJECTIVELY, given the “evidence” provided in the Bible, Judas went to Hell.
The following CCC articles make it clear that suicide is a mortal sin, but that, like today’s criminal law, one’s state of mind may mitigate the punishment (such as one who truly does not know right from wrong - but again, the Bible does not say this of Judas’s mind):
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
To break one of God’s commandments is a mortal sin, unless, as mentioned above, mitigated by certain psychological or physical (such as duress) factors.
As some have pointed out, we have ONE clue that one can, at least in my opinion, treat as Christ giving us an idea of what happened to Judas:
How can one legitimately say that it is better to have been born and gone to Hell for eternity than to have never been born at all? Although these are not the words Christ spoke, they ARE what he is actually saying . . .
With respect, that simply does not make sense.
Now, I am not making the fine distinction between the moment of conception and the moment of birth. I take what Christ said as “being created” - not (pardon the graphic)passing through a woman during labor.
Logically: If one were never conceived, then a soul was never created, and an uncreated soul cannot know joy or pain because it never existed. Thus, it would be FAR better for a soul to have never been created than for it to have been created and condemned to an eternity of Hell.
As I said in one of my previous posts, NO ONE but God knows the fate of Judas.
The Catholic Church teaches that ONLY those mentioned in the Bible (remember Jesus speaking to those before his death, as witnessed by Peter?) and those proclaimed saints by the Church are in Heaven.
You cite 2238, which states:
“2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.”
That being said, OBJECTIVELY, given the “evidence” provided in the Bible, Judas went to Hell.
The following CCC articles make it clear that suicide is a mortal sin, but that, like today’s criminal law, one’s state of mind may mitigate the punishment (such as one who truly does not know right from wrong - but again, the Bible does not say this of Judas’s mind):
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law. Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.
2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
To break one of God’s commandments is a mortal sin, unless, as mentioned above, mitigated by certain psychological or physical (such as duress) factors.
As some have pointed out, we have ONE clue that one can, at least in my opinion, treat as Christ giving us an idea of what happened to Judas:
How can one legitimately say that it is better to have been born and gone to Hell for eternity than to have never been born at all? Although these are not the words Christ spoke, they ARE what he is actually saying . . .
With respect, that simply does not make sense.
Now, I am not making the fine distinction between the moment of conception and the moment of birth. I take what Christ said as “being created” - not (pardon the graphic)passing through a woman during labor.
Logically: If one were never conceived, then a soul was never created, and an uncreated soul cannot know joy or pain because it never existed. Thus, it would be FAR better for a soul to have never been created than for it to have been created and condemned to an eternity of Hell.
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ejp123
Guest
Your first line is my point. !!! But most seem so confident that he is in hell. I am not so confident that he is. We’re talking about the DIVINE MERCY OF CHRIST here. I don’t think Christ is a push over nor do I believe that a sin can over power his mercy. In Newadvent .com on the topic of Judas the last line states that Origen thinks his suicide was an act to get him to meet Christ in the after life. Even a doctor of the church doesn’t sound so convinced that he is in hell.
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The_Scott
Guest
Origen isn’t a Doctor of the Church, or a saint for that matter. He believed in universalism, which means that he thought that everyone - even the devil, possibly - will be redeemed. Hell, to universalists, is a sort of Purgatory. So it makes perfect sense for him to think Judas isn’t in Hell.
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Salvatore123
Guest
ejp,
The Scott is correct: Origen is most certainly NOT a “Father of the Church”.
I am not suggesting you derived your conclusion from it, but this type of discussion is exactly why Wikipedia is to be (in my humble opinion) “condemned” as an arbiter. A source to begin? Certainly. But definitely not something to use as the basis for a conclusion.
With all that Origen succeeded, many have asked why Origen was never made a saint.
At least two “beliefs”/“teachings” of Origen will likely keep him from ever being made a saint. Note that I did not say that Origen is not in heaven - the two are distinct conclusions.
First, as The Scott noted, Origen is remembered from his belief in “Universality”. It is an admirable belief - noting the extent of God’s mercy and that all might be saved - but Origen went too far in extending salvation to those already condemned at the time of their death. Man’s salvation is determined at the moment of death - he can do nothing about it afterwards. This is the reason why our Church has taught for almost 2000 years the NECESSITY (unless circumstances don’t permit - such as being caught in rubble from an earthquake and dying before being able to confess to a priest) of confession of all mortal sins before dying. The Church, recognizing that certain circumstances will not permit an “orderly” flow of confession of large groups of Catholics, permit “group confession/absolution” of sins for those going into battle during a war. A scene in the movie Braveheart representing this occurs where the priests are giving absolution to William Wallace’s men before they battle the king of England.
Second, and probably the most problematic, was Origen’s “ranking” of the Trinity. Origen taught that God was “ranked” higher than the Son and the Holy Spirit. Of course, today, anyone teaching such a thing would be branded a heretic. The Church seems to have made an exception in not branding him as such, because he taught on a very complicated subject at such an early time in Christendom. In other words - Origen was wrong, but might be forgived because he was working with little official catechisis to refer to.
It is ironic that Origen is held to a much higher level of “respect” in the Greek Orthodox church because of his “Trinity ranking” theory. For the first 5 centuries, this doctrine appeared to be accepted by Greek Orthodoxy. In addition, I could not help but think that this may have played a role in the Great Schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy regarding the filioque clause in the Nicean Creed.
P.S. - reading over my previous post, I note that I transposed the article number from the Catechism. I apologize for not being more attentive.
P.S.S. - I am certainly not a moderator and don’t presume to be such in stating the following, but I personally think this thread has run its course because it is discussing something that obviously not everyone will agree on because of the absence of an official declaration from the Church on the matter (to date).
We do not know what happened to Judas. We may reasonably and OBJECTIVELY conclude that Judas went to Hell, based not only one what he did, but on Jesus’s comment about “better to not have been born”.
If we SUBJECTIVELY conclude that Judas is in Hell, then we sin. As I mentioned at the outset, only the Church and those mentioned specifically in the bible, determine who is in Heaven. To state with certainty that Judas is in Hell from a subjective viewpoint violates Christ’s teaching that we should not judge others - that is God’s province.
The Scott is correct: Origen is most certainly NOT a “Father of the Church”.
I am not suggesting you derived your conclusion from it, but this type of discussion is exactly why Wikipedia is to be (in my humble opinion) “condemned” as an arbiter. A source to begin? Certainly. But definitely not something to use as the basis for a conclusion.
With all that Origen succeeded, many have asked why Origen was never made a saint.
At least two “beliefs”/“teachings” of Origen will likely keep him from ever being made a saint. Note that I did not say that Origen is not in heaven - the two are distinct conclusions.
First, as The Scott noted, Origen is remembered from his belief in “Universality”. It is an admirable belief - noting the extent of God’s mercy and that all might be saved - but Origen went too far in extending salvation to those already condemned at the time of their death. Man’s salvation is determined at the moment of death - he can do nothing about it afterwards. This is the reason why our Church has taught for almost 2000 years the NECESSITY (unless circumstances don’t permit - such as being caught in rubble from an earthquake and dying before being able to confess to a priest) of confession of all mortal sins before dying. The Church, recognizing that certain circumstances will not permit an “orderly” flow of confession of large groups of Catholics, permit “group confession/absolution” of sins for those going into battle during a war. A scene in the movie Braveheart representing this occurs where the priests are giving absolution to William Wallace’s men before they battle the king of England.
Second, and probably the most problematic, was Origen’s “ranking” of the Trinity. Origen taught that God was “ranked” higher than the Son and the Holy Spirit. Of course, today, anyone teaching such a thing would be branded a heretic. The Church seems to have made an exception in not branding him as such, because he taught on a very complicated subject at such an early time in Christendom. In other words - Origen was wrong, but might be forgived because he was working with little official catechisis to refer to.
It is ironic that Origen is held to a much higher level of “respect” in the Greek Orthodox church because of his “Trinity ranking” theory. For the first 5 centuries, this doctrine appeared to be accepted by Greek Orthodoxy. In addition, I could not help but think that this may have played a role in the Great Schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy regarding the filioque clause in the Nicean Creed.
P.S. - reading over my previous post, I note that I transposed the article number from the Catechism. I apologize for not being more attentive.
P.S.S. - I am certainly not a moderator and don’t presume to be such in stating the following, but I personally think this thread has run its course because it is discussing something that obviously not everyone will agree on because of the absence of an official declaration from the Church on the matter (to date).
We do not know what happened to Judas. We may reasonably and OBJECTIVELY conclude that Judas went to Hell, based not only one what he did, but on Jesus’s comment about “better to not have been born”.
If we SUBJECTIVELY conclude that Judas is in Hell, then we sin. As I mentioned at the outset, only the Church and those mentioned specifically in the bible, determine who is in Heaven. To state with certainty that Judas is in Hell from a subjective viewpoint violates Christ’s teaching that we should not judge others - that is God’s province.
Sometimes we “help” people without realising.
Judas did not go to confession, he did not go to Jesus, he did not go to the other apostles, he hanged himself. Do you not see the difference in these acts?
He did not trust in the Mercy of God, if he did he would have not killed himself.
Jesus Christ Himself said “Better for that man if he had never been born”, who are we to argue with this statement?
The people you speak of leaving confession did two things different to Judas, firstly they went to confession, let’s say for arguments sake that Judas confessed to God in a field somewhere. Secondly the people you speak of did not, after leaving confession, go home and hang themselves but Judas did.
If Judas was able to confess his sins, commit suicide and end up in Heaven than you may aswell legalise euthanasia which I am against.
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Salvatore123
Guest
ejp,
With due respect, I humbly think you should think of Judas in this manner (if, as it seems, it really concerns you as much as it does): Judas COULD have been admitted into Heaven, after definitely going through Purgatory, because of some mental “defect” that made him not responsible for his actions. This is the equivalent of the “insanity” defense in criminal law (I am a trial attorney by trade) - not knowing right from wrong or some other standard, depending on what a particular state defines as lessening one’s responsibility for one’s criminal acts.
But from an OBJECTIVE point of view, neither you, nor anyone else, can dispute the following:
Again, unless someone can say that Judas suffered from some mental defect that lessened his culpability AS TO HIS OWN DEATH, then how can one say that suicide is forgiven? One cannot ask for forgiveness (legitimately) BEFORE they sin. That would be essentially a “get out of jail free card”, and it goes completely contrary to Catholic teaching for 2000 years.
If Judas could have gained entry into heaven, why did Jesus label him as a man who would wish he had never been born? This is a question I think you must address.
P.S. It was not until my lifetime (and I am not yet 50) that suicide victims were granted Catholic funerals. Before my birth, suicide victims suffered the safe fate as those Catholics who had been excommunicated and not reconciled to the Church before their death. That may sound harsh, but God’s laws are God’s laws.
It is VERY easy to confuse “compassion” and “justice”. Catholic theology teaches that it is the HEIGHT of compassion to be just with someone.
With due respect, I humbly think you should think of Judas in this manner (if, as it seems, it really concerns you as much as it does): Judas COULD have been admitted into Heaven, after definitely going through Purgatory, because of some mental “defect” that made him not responsible for his actions. This is the equivalent of the “insanity” defense in criminal law (I am a trial attorney by trade) - not knowing right from wrong or some other standard, depending on what a particular state defines as lessening one’s responsibility for one’s criminal acts.
But from an OBJECTIVE point of view, neither you, nor anyone else, can dispute the following:
- Judas betrayed Jesus for money.
- Judas gave back the money because he claimed the Sanhedrin misled him. Whether he was remorseful about what happened to Jesus or that he was misled, the bible does not clearly say.
- Judas hung himself after giving back his “pay”.
Again, unless someone can say that Judas suffered from some mental defect that lessened his culpability AS TO HIS OWN DEATH, then how can one say that suicide is forgiven? One cannot ask for forgiveness (legitimately) BEFORE they sin. That would be essentially a “get out of jail free card”, and it goes completely contrary to Catholic teaching for 2000 years.
If Judas could have gained entry into heaven, why did Jesus label him as a man who would wish he had never been born? This is a question I think you must address.
P.S. It was not until my lifetime (and I am not yet 50) that suicide victims were granted Catholic funerals. Before my birth, suicide victims suffered the safe fate as those Catholics who had been excommunicated and not reconciled to the Church before their death. That may sound harsh, but God’s laws are God’s laws.
It is VERY easy to confuse “compassion” and “justice”. Catholic theology teaches that it is the HEIGHT of compassion to be just with someone.
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