Is justification on-going?

[Blair_Laird]

Is justification on-going?

“Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘See, God, I have come to do your will, O God’ (in the scroll of the book it is written of me).” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “See, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, “he sat down at the right hand of God,” and since then has been waiting “until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet.” For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds,” he also adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:1–18, NRSV)

This text deals directly with the topics of atonement, and justification. One thing that is debated between Catholics, and Protestants, is justification an ongoing process. I am a protestant but am trying to take an honest look @ the text from a Catholic perspective. I picked up what Catholic commentaries I own, and was not help in dealing with these topics. If justification is on-going then what is the difference between what Christ did, and what the priests did with animals? Is the atonement that Christ offers imperfect that it must be applied over, and over? What New Testament passages point to us having to justified over, and over?

 

[DavidFilmer]

Most Catholics don’t use the word “justification,” which does not have a common meaning even among protestants.

Catholics usually prefer to distinguish between salvation and redemption (redemption is most comparable to justification - some would say the words are synonymous).

Everyone (100% of the human race) is 100% redeemed. There is nothing that anyone has to do to be redeemed. We are redeemed regardless of whether or not we are in a State of Grace, or have committed a mortal sin, or have ever heard of Jesus. We can never become “unreedemed.” The human race was redeemed through the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary, which was a unique and distinct event in the history of the world (“once, for all”) that is never repeated (though it is represented in the Eucharist, but that’s another topic).

Redemption is not the same as salvation (though redemption is a necessary prerequisite). Redemption enables our salvation, but it does not cause it. We participate with God in our salvation. When St. Paul says, “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and fill up on my part that which is lacking of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh” (Col 1:24) he is referring to his own participation in his salvation.

The Catholic Church helps us participate in our salvation, mainly by offering Christian Baptism. If a person is Baptized (even by a non-Catholic) and does not commit a mortal sin, that person is saved. Most protestants practice valid Baptism, so salvation is certainly attainable for them. Catholics have additional Sacraments to aid them on their spiritual journey - foremost among these are Eucharist and (if we mess up very badly), Confession. These additional comforts are not usually available to protestants, because their forefathers turned away from them.

 

[Blair_Laird]

I do not dispute our role in the body. I believe we are called for a purpose. I believe that our merits in Christ our rewarded. I do not understand how you are using the term redeemed… what are you saying we are redeemed from? What was the purpose of Yeshua dying on the cross? We may have a different understanding on atonement… I do not own a catholic systematic theology, and am not Catholic… I guess it is improper to ask if Yeshua’s sacrifice was imperfect if we are not in agreement on what the purpose of the the redemption was for…

 

[DavidFilmer]

I do not understand how you are using the term redeemed… what are you saying we are redeemed from?

To put it simply, it means the “debt” of sin has been paid. Jesus has posted bail (so to speak), but it is still up to us to get up and walk out of prison (analogous to Baptism) and not get thrown back into jail for some future offence (analogous to mortal sin).

Without Calvary, there would be no way for us to ever walk out of jail. Nothing we could do would suffice. It would be impossible to escape.

With redemption, salvation becomes very simple. All it takes is a little water and a few words. You or I could Baptize someone in under 15 seconds, without even hurrying.

After Baptism, Eucharist helps us avoid mortal sin, and Confession enables us to overcome it if we do succumb.

 

[Blair_Laird]

So if Yeshua has paid the debt, does he have to continue to pay the debt? If so what scriptures say that, and how does that relate to Heb 10?

 

[DavidFilmer]

So if Yeshua has paid the debt, does he have to continue to pay the debt?

No. 100% of humanity is 100% redeemed, and this is for all time. The debt was paid in full on Calvary (and, in fact, Jesus overpaid, so there’s a “credit balance” which the Church calls the “Spiritual Treasury,” but that’s a whole nuther topic).

 

[po18guy]

This is a huge problem: that of vastly differing terminology in the past 495 years. We are redeemed through human blood - because animal blood could never atone for human sin (animals have no sin). Christ’s redemption opened the gates of heaven, but Jesus does not carry us through them. We can only struggle toward and through them by cooperating with God’s unmerited grace. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved”

Think of this: If Jesus’ did everything, then we need do nothing at all - not even believe. If our sin now has no price, why did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ, and why does James exhort us to confess our sins to one another? Why are we called to do penance (repent)?

What you need is a catechism of the Catholic Church. Less than $10. Deals with this in detail.

 

[po18guy]

Redemption: Christ’s bloody sacrifice. Done without our participation, but required due to our participation in sin.
Justification: Our faith in Christ - which is a grace. Must be maintained and strengthened, again, through God’s grace.
Sanctification: Via the Sacraments - channels of God’s grace to restore us to a state of grace before Him.

Redemption was done for us. Justification and Sanctification are not - they require us to cooperate with God’s grace. Still, this is over-simplified.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Redemption was done for us. Justification and Sanctification are not - they require us to cooperate with God’s grace. Still, this is over-simplified.

At the risk of oversimplifying it further: Jesus has done his part. We just need to do our part (which is very, very tiny). Basically, we just need to accept what Jesus freely offers.

 

[po18guy]

At the risk of oversimplifying it further: Jesus has done his part. We just need to do our part (which is very, very tiny). Basically, we just need to accept what Jesus freely offers.

In the case of our Protestant brother, notice the often-mentioned concerns regarding justification, sanctification and salvation. Lacking an authoritative central body (Acts 15), and operating under differing definitions of terms, so many non-Catholics seem ever uncertain about these important facets of our spiritual life. Conversely, I would say that the average Catholic, me included, rarely thinks about these subjects. We have the Sacraments. We are baptized and receive the Holy Spirit. When we sin (and we know when we sin), we confess that sin with as much humility and contrition as we can muster, and we receive absolution. We hear those oh-so-comforting words of our Savior: “I absolve you of your sin” What a great blessing! The penance we receive is a sign of our Lord’s unfathomable mercy. Simply receive the Sacraments that Jesus established and we need not worry. Yet, this always requires repentance and contrition. Just as with our cars, our souls also need maintenance - the Sacraments. 88 year old Dominican mission Priest Fr. Antoninus Wall teaches that confession is dialysis for the soul. We step into that confessional in an unhealthy state and emerge is perfect spiritual health.

 

[Nita]

Here is a link to the section in the Catechism on “Grace and Justification”.
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_P6Y.HTM#5Y Paragraphs 1987-2005

 

[JRKH]

Blair…
Welcome to the forums, and thanks for asking the question - It is a good one.

I just skimmed through the replies above and see that others are already addressing the matter well and do not wish to step on anyone’s toes - but I do wish to offer my thoughts.

In my discussions with protestants on this matter I have found that the problem is less about actual belief and more about terminology and perhaps emphasis…It can get quite complex sometimes.

I like to put in in the simplest of terms in this way…
Justification is both immediate AND ongoing.

Consider the Parable of the “ungrateful servant” in Mt 18:23-35

In this parable, we see the king forgive the debt of the official…so that when the man left the presence of the king he owed nothing (Fully Justified). Yet - what happened when the official did not pass on that mercy to others? We are told that the former debt was reinstated and the man tossed in jail held accountable (No longer Justified).

So - initial Justification is full and complete when we repent and come to the Lord…but that Justification must be kept, it must be cared for and it must be maintained.
This process is often referred to as Sanctification - or growing in holiness. But no matter how one describes it or what terminology one uses…it is obvious (to me) that the matter is both an initial (but full) act as well as an ongoing (and developing / perfecting) journey.

I hope this helps you some.

Peace
James

 

[DonMack]

Thank you JRKH… As a repentant Catholic convert, I have wondered many times about how a cradle Catholic ever reaches salvation fully. Your response with the association to the Parable of the “ungrateful servant” is very helpful. I’m sure I’ll refer back to your post often.

 

[Khalid]

According to the dogmatic definition of the Decree on Justification of Trent, justification is indeed ongoing: there is a “first justification” by grace, a “second justification” by faith working in charity, and a “third justification” which is irrelevant to this discussion (repentance). This is the ancient Augustinian definition of “justification” which envisions it as a transformative process worked by the Holy Spirit uniting the believer to Christ, that is, through infused divine grace.

Protestants, following the Melanchthonian usage of forensic justification - which introduces a notional, but not real distinction (to make the distinction real would be left to later once saved always saved advocates) between the initial declaration of justification and the becoming just made possible by the conception of imputed alien righteousness - would call the first justification “justification” and the second justification “sanctification”.

So, it depends on how you define your terms. In traditional Augustinian imagery, justification is both instantaneous and ongoing: it deals with both the initiation and the consummation of the Christian life. In traditional Protestant imagery, it is not ongoing, dealing only with the initiation of the Christian life, with the consummation of Christian life left in the sphere of the notionally distinct concept of sanctification.

 

[thenobes]

Is justification on-going?

“Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, ‘See, God, I have come to do your will, O God’ (in the scroll of the book it is written of me).” When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), then he added, “See, I have come to do your will.” He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, “he sat down at the right hand of God,” and since then has been waiting “until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet.” For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us, for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds,” he also adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.” (Hebrews 10:1–18, NRSV)

This text deals directly with the topics of atonement, and justification. One thing that is debated between Catholics, and Protestants, is justification an ongoing process. I am a protestant but am trying to take an honest look @ the text from a Catholic perspective. I picked up what Catholic commentaries I own, and was not help in dealing with these topics. If justification is on-going then what is the difference between what Christ did, and what the priests did with animals? Is the atonement that Christ offers imperfect that it must be applied over, and over? What New Testament passages point to us having to justified over, and over?

I think Hebrews 10 is discussing sanctification, and that the sacrifices of the OT could not do that or else those bringing those sacrifices would not have been aware of consistently sinning as much and not becoming more sanctified, that is, becoming closer to God and sinning less.

peace
steve

 

[Blair_Laird]

This is a huge problem: that of vastly differing terminology in the past 495 years. We are redeemed through human blood - because animal blood could never atone for human sin (animals have no sin). Christ’s redemption opened the gates of heaven, but Jesus does not carry us through them. We can only struggle toward and through them by cooperating with God’s unmerited grace. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved”

Think of this: If Jesus’ did everything, then we need do nothing at all - not even believe. If our sin now has no price, why did Paul forgive sins in the person of Christ, and why does James exhort us to confess our sins to one another? Why are we called to do penance (repent)?

What you need is a catechism of the Catholic Church. Less than $10. Deals with this in detail.

I own CCC, and it is helpful. I am not saying we do not cooperate in our sanctification. That is something that every protestant holds to. Why are we declared justified by God? It is because we are just, we have Christ in us through union. We no longer have our righteousness but His.This is what I do not understand concerning ongoing justification. If you are saved you are united to Christ, and are just because He is…

 

[Blair_Laird]

I think Hebrews 10 is discussing sanctification, and that the sacrifices of the OT could not do that or else those bringing those sacrifices would not have been aware of consistently sinning as much and not becoming more sanctified, that is, becoming closer to God and sinning less.

peace
steve

The passage speaks of forgiveness, which would seem to tie to redemption, justification, atonement. The term justification is more of a legal term than sanctification, which would seem to fit that passage…

Blessings in Christ

 

[DavidFilmer]

If you are saved you are united to Christ, and are just because He is.

This is true, but we still retain our free will. We may freely choose to end our united relationship with Jesus, and he will not force us to stay with him.

You seem to be influenced by those who teach “Once Saved, Always Saved” (OSAS), which denies us our free will once we are saved. Catholics believe we retain our free will, and God will not force us to choose him (we do that through our own free will), nor will he force us to remain with him (that is also something we do of our own free will). Catholics believe we retain (and may exercise) our free will throughout our entire life.

 

[po18guy]

I own CCC, and it is helpful. I am not saying we do not cooperate in our sanctification. That is something that every protestant holds to. Why are we declared justified by God? It is because we are just, we have Christ in us through union. We no longer have our righteousness but His.This is what I do not understand concerning ongoing justification. If you are saved you are united to Christ, and are just because He is…

The problem is that Jesus told us that we must “remain in Him” This indicates a price, or penalty to be paid if one does not remain in Him. Why would He say that if there was no way we could lose our justified state? Once lost through sin, a restoration must be made - which God always offers to us. We must accept His offer and cooperate with His grace for our damaged relationship to be restored. And, the burden is on us sinners to take the second step, since God has taken the first in offering to be reconciled with us.

You must admit that post-baptismal sin is a frequent point of discussion in the Protestant realm. Catholics and Orthodox think little about it, as they each have the healing Sacrament of confession. Our sins are the only thing that can possibly separate us from God. Catholics believe that our sins cause damage to our relationship with God. Thus, we must not only repent, but make reparation for the hurt or damage that our sins have caused. This is the ministry of reconciliation that Paul wrote of (2 Corinthians 5:11-18). Remember that Paul was writing to baptized Christians who had received the Holy Spirit. Why would they need reconciliation with God if that relationship could not be lost or damaged?

As well, consider why Paul would forgive a sinful man’s sin (2 Corinthians 2), since Paul was not the one sinned against. But, look: Paul forgave sin in the person of Christ (2 Corinthians 2:10). Most modern/revised translations have this as “in the presence of Christ”, but how does that make sense, since it is impossible to forgive outside of the presence of Christ. And, why would Jesus give the Apostles power over sin if they were not to use it? The answer is that the Apostles and their successors have a ministry of reconciliation, just as Paul wrote.

Recall here that reconciliation/forgiveness is inextricably linked with healing. In each and every case in scripture, Jesus told the sinner that their sins were forgiven (i.e. Luke 5:20). And, it is those same words we hear when we confess our sins. Not even all Catholics know that the proper name for confession is the “Sacrament of Reconciliation” - It comes directly from scripture. (the Gospels, Paul and James).

Recall that redemtion by Christ involved only the opening of the gates to heaven. God will give us the grace to persevere so that we may pass through them, but we must first ask for that grace, and then cooperate with it. It is not automatic.

This is an area of huge difference difference between the ancient Apostolic Churches and the Protestants.

The next book that will help you: Catholicism for Dummies. It is an excellent and easily read explanation of Catholic beliefs and practices, as well as the reasons behind those beliefs and practices. Highly recommended.

 

[JRKH]

I own CCC, and it is helpful.

I am not saying we do not cooperate in our sanctification. That is something that every protestant holds to.

Not to distract from the conversation - but I don’t think that this is entirely true that all protestants believe this…

Why are we declared justified by God? It is because we are just, we have Christ in us through union. We no longer have our righteousness but His. This is what I do not understand concerning ongoing justification. If you are saved you are united to Christ, and are just because He is…

You’ve lost me a bit here…
I think that from the Catholic perspective - we would reverse your last sentence to say that, “If you are united with Christ you are saved”.
I think that if we ponder on the differences in these two very similar statements you might begin to grasp the idea of infused justification.

If we begin with the idea of “union with Christ” - what does this mean?
How does one acquire “union with Christ”?
Can something imperfect ever be fully united with that which is perfect?

From the Catholic perspective (as I understand it) the answer to the last question is no. That the imperfect must be made perfect in order to acquire perfect union.
So long as something remains impure it will always be - so some extent - unjust.
The more that we can “weed out” (through the grace of God and the Sacraments) that which is still impure in us, then the more “just” (sanctified) we become and the more fully united we become with our Lord. Hence the idea of “infused” justification. Otherwise spoken of as “growing in holiness” - or as you might term it, “sanctification”.

Just to be clear on this…the above does not mean that we cannot be saved while we are in this imperfect state. What it does mean is that God looks to our hearts and our efforts made during our time here on earth. This is spoken of repeatedly in the Gospels as I am sure that you are aware.

Of course it is most unlikely that any will achieve perfection in this life, though some have perhaps come close and so, for those who tried their very best but have fallen short, there is a final purgation prior to entry into that full union with Christ in heaven.

As always - the above is largely my understanding of things - - - I invite others to comment / correct me if I am off base in so far as Church teaching goes.

Peace
James