Is Latin superior than other languages?

[hazcompat]

Please explain! There are Christians who consider Pontius Pilate a saint?? Is there evidence that he converted after the sordid events of Good Friday?

Why? do you wish it to be otherwise? is that not contrary to the will of Our Father?

peace

 

[ProVobis]

It’s numeric system is, however, very cumbersome. I’m amazed at what they were able to accomplish technically and logistically with such a clumsy system.

Is that why most of the world frowns on the US for not using the metric system?

But you’ll be happy to know that the Church does use Arabic numbers inside its own Latin documents and computers still recognize the binary system ("1"s and "0"s) of those same Arabic numerals. (The Romans didn’t believe in zeros. )

 

[CHRISTINE77]

My point there is that the Filioque is a good example that Latin is not the perfect language that everyone claims it to be. Its not more precise as any other language. If it is so precise, then there would have been a way to express that line of the Creed in Latin to convey the same meaning it does in the Greek understanding, without having to add more words. It shows the language itself has shortcomings.

There is no such that as a more precise language. The words that developed in every language came out of the use of that language by the culture that uses it. Latin just seems more precise than today’s English because the Western faith developed in a Latin speaking culture where all the terminologies were made in Latin. Case in point, in Chinese, there are specific words for every sibling in your family as to whether they are male or female and in which birth order they are in relation to you. So you wouldn’t call your 1st oldest sister the same as your next oldest sister, etc. Thats very precise. Does that mean Chinese is more precise than English? Those words came out of their cultural need to give respect to those older than them. That is not the case in English speaking cultures. So its not a question of precision of language but a necessity of use that bore out specific terms. Earlier English speaking people would have come up with more precise language if they had the need for it. As modern culture has taught us, inventing words isn’t that hard.

I don’t think Latin is necessarily Precise, rather Consise. That is, you don’t need as many words to say the same thing as you do in English.

 

[ProVobis]

As modern culture has taught us, inventing words isn’t that hard.

It’s not the words so much as the flow of thought. I’m no linguist (though I can “think” in different languages), but even among those speaking English, once the subject-verb-object sequence is twisted on them, as in legalease for example, they have to think twice to get the intended meaning if they get it at all. In Latin (or Polish or other languages, for that matter), the sequence of words is not that important, because endings determine cases, tenses, and voice. It’s very difficult to capture this flow of thought or intended emphasis even if the translations are 1-1, which itself seldom happens as most words have more than one meaning.

*Ite, Missa est *- the English will never figure that one out, hehe.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I don’t think Latin is necessarily Precise, rather Consise. That is, you don’t need as many words to say the same thing as you do in English.

It still actually goes either way. There are things that you can say more concisely in English than in other language. Again, its all about the usage of the culture who uses the language. If there is a need within the culture to use more concise words, the words will be made to make that expression.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It’s not the words so much as the flow of thought. I’m no linguist (though I can “think” in different languages), but even among those speaking English, once the subject-verb-object sequence is twisted on them, as in legalease for example, they have to think twice to get the intended meaning if they get it at all. In Latin (or Polish or other languages, for that matter), the sequence of words is not that important, because endings determine cases, tenses, and voice. It’s very difficult to capture this flow of thought or intended emphasis even if the translations are 1-1, which itself seldom happens as most words have more than one meaning.

*Ite, Missa est *- the English will never figure that one out, hehe.

The problem here is you expect everything to be one-to-one. Latin surely would fit the Romance languages, but little else. Not only with English but with most other languages around the world, there isn’t a one-to-one equivalence with a lot of words. The important thing is to understand that language is about conveying a thought and the thought itself doesn’t have to be limited to exact words.

Then you will say, “they they should learn Latin.” But if one’s language is not similar or compatible to Latin, then the same problem will happen. I see this with many people who are not native English speakers. When they learn English, oftentimes their mistakes are not because they are poor English speakers, but because they unintentionally use sentence construction rules from their native tongue on English, that is why they would speak or write poor English. As an example, one of my most common mistakes is to this day I would say, “close the light,” instead of “turn off”. In Filipino, the word for “close” can be used for “turning off”.

Even if people learn Latin, they would have to translate it in their minds into their native tongue. There’s really no way to getting around it, there will be issues with translation no matter what.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

The problem here is you expect everything to be one-to-one. Latin surely would fit the Romance languages, but little else. Not only with English but with most other languages around the world, there isn’t a one-to-one equivalence with a lot of words. The important thing is to understand that language is about conveying a thought and the thought itself doesn’t have to be limited to exact words.

Then you will say, “they they should learn Latin.” But if one’s language is not similar or compatible to Latin, then the same problem will happen. I see this with many people who are not native English speakers. When they learn English, oftentimes their mistakes are not because they are poor English speakers, but because they unintentionally use sentence construction rules from their native tongue on English, that is why they would speak or write poor English. As an example, one of my most common mistakes is to this day I would say, “close the light,” instead of “turn off”. In Filipino, the word for “close” can be used for “turning off”.

Even if people learn Latin, they would have to translate it in their minds into their native tongue. There’s really no way to getting around it, there will be issues with translation no matter what.

Well anyway, Latin is the language of Western Christianity. It has a long history. Might as well accept it as the language of the Church.

 

[ProVobis]

Even if people learn Latin, they would have to translate it in their minds into their native tongue.

Not if they learn it early enough in their lives. But even if they wait till they’re in 7th or 8th grade, it’ll still probably improve their SAT scores.

bolchazy.com/al/latadv.htm

 

[Timothysis]

Well anyway, Latin is the language of Western Christianity. It has a long history. Might as well accept it as the language of the Church.

Have you gone through all of these pages and not realized that Latin was never the only language of the Church? It is, today, the “official” language of the Church (did you know that the recent Catechism was written in French and THEN translated into Latin?) but not “the” language of the Church. The Church is only as small as we try to make it. To try and make the whole Church Latin speaking would be trying to make the Church smaller.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Have you gone through all of these pages and not realized that Latin was never the only language of the Church? It is, today, the “official” language of the Church (did you know that the recent Catechism was written in French and THEN translated into Latin?) but not “the” language of the Church. The Church is only as small as we try to make it. To try and make the whole Church Latin speaking would be trying to make the Church smaller.

Well, excuse me, but almost all the services in the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages were done in Latin, no matter where the chuch was, in Scandinavia, Germany, Italy or France. All the common prayers such as Pater Noster and Ave Maria are in Latin.I don’t know when exactly they started having services in the vernacular language, but I’m sure it wasn’t before the Reformation.

 

[Timothysis]

Well, excuse me, but almost all the services in the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages were done in Latin, no matter where the chuch was, in Scandinavia, Germany, Italy or France. All the common prayers such as Pater Noster and Ave Maria are in Latin.I don’t know when exactly they started having services in the vernacular language, but I’m sure it wasn’t before the Reformation.

Vernacular languages in the liturgy started when the Church switched from Greek to Latin, sometime around the 2nd or 3rd century. Before then, “*all the common prayers such as Pater Moster and Ave Maris” *were in Greek.

Would you suggest that we abandon the Kyrie in the Mass today because it is Greek and not Latin?

Also, I wasn’t aware that the Middle Ages were the standard by which we measure the Catholicity of the Church. If that is the case, then we are in for big, big trouble.

 

[ProVobis]

To try and make the whole Church Latin speaking would be trying to make the Church smaller

We’re talking about one hour of the week Catholics of all nations coming together. You can’t leave English at home or in the car just for that one hour? I don’t know about you but if I heard the Church chose Chinese as the official language tomorrow, I’d be ordering books from Amazon before they’d finish the sentence.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Well anyway, Latin is the language of Western Christianity. It has a long history. Might as well accept it as the language of the Church.

I’m not debating that its not the language of the Church. Its not the topic of this thread. I don’t believe Latin is any more special than any other language. Its a human language.

 

[Timothysis]

We’re talking about one hour of the week Catholics of all nations coming together. You can’t leave English at home or in the car just for that one hour? I don’t know about you but if I heard the Church chose Chinese as the official language tomorrow, I’d be ordering books from Amazon before they finish the sentence.

Why should I leave English in the car for one hour? I’m a native English speaker, not Latin. Why should I have to learn to parrot phrases from a missal that I have no knowledge or understanding?

If the Church did choose Chinese as the official language tomorrow (what a silly example), then it doesn’t follow that Mass Sunday morning at 8am would be in Chinese. It would simply mean that the “official” language of the Church would be Chinese. The “official” language of Latin doesn’t make Mass all over the world in Latin, anymore than the official language of Chinese would make Mass all over the world in Chinese.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not if they learn it early enough in their lives. But even if they wait till they’re in 7th or 8th grade, it’ll still probably improve their SAT scores.

bolchazy.com/al/latadv.htm

Not true. English is a mode of instruction in the Philippines, it is in fact one of the two official languages of the country. Yet many are not that good with English. English instruction is in all levels of school. Math and Science is purely taught in English. And the textbooks for all but 2 subjects (Social Science which includes Philippine History, and Filipino) are in English. Yet people still aren’t as well versed in English.

On the other hand, there are a lot of Filipino immigrants to the US and other English speaking countries that seem to have language amnesia. They adopt an accent in a few weeks, and a year later they can’t speak Filipino anymore (honestly we think they’re fakes, but thats another topic). Proof though that language is learned better and easier around native speakers. I actually picked up a few Cantonese words in my 3 months in Hong Kong even without any formal or informal instruction. Just day to day interaction.

 

[ProVobis]

Proof though that language is learned better and easier around native speakers. I actually picked up a few Cantonese words in my 3 months in Hong Kong even without any formal or informal instruction. Just day to day interaction.

That’s good. Then you should have no problems picking up a few Latin phrases and prayers if you have more Latin (native or non-native) speakers and writers around you for 3 months. That was sort of my point.

But going back to math and science scores, I’ll have to also give some credit to the Greek for providing all the symbols if not the theories and principles used in mathematics as well as physics.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, excuse me, but almost all the services in the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages were done in Latin, no matter where the chuch was, in Scandinavia, Germany, Italy or France. All the common prayers such as Pater Noster and Ave Maria are in Latin.I don’t know when exactly they started having services in the vernacular language, but I’m sure it wasn’t before the Reformation.

Actually the shift TO Latin from Greek was a shift to the vernacular (though to a higher, more sophisticated form), Latin being essentially the vernacular of the West. And prior to the Reformation, Sts. Cyril and Methodius were permitted to translate the Mass and offer it in Slavonic. Also, for a time, it was permitted for missionaries in China to offer the Sacrifice in that tongue.

Langauge is about conveying MEANING. If people don’t understand what someone is saying, then language is useless. And if translation is wrong, as seems to have been implied in some posts here, then it’s also wrong to follow the vernacular translation in the missals at an EF Mass. Whether the words are spoken or read, meaning is conveyed and derived. There is nothing ontologically sacred about Latin. It has been used to convey sacred meanings, but “crux” is not holier or more sacred than “cross,” “croix,” or “cruz.” We are not bound to believe that it is sacred of itself, Blessed John XXIII’s encyclical notwithstanding, because it is not a part of authoritative Tradition that has been handed down by the Apostles and papal infallibility does not extend to that. It has not been an article of faith believed by the Church from Its inception. We would certainly owe obedience to Blessed John or any pope that ordered the use of Latin, but we are not bound to believe that it is sacred. As for superior, the language needed for the task at hand, whatever that task is, is superior.

 

[Pork_Roll]

Absolutely… next question.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Absolutely… next question.

An opinion, not a fact.

 

[ConstantineTG]

That’s good. Then you should have no problems picking up a few Latin phrases and prayers if you have more Latin (native or non-native) speakers and writers around you for 3 months. That was sort of my point.

But going back to math and science scores, I’ll have to also give some credit to the Greek for providing all the symbols if not the theories and principles used in mathematics as well as physics.

The thing about Liturgy is that there are no native Latin speakers there. Everything is read from the book. The appreciation of language doesn’t really develop as naturally as in casual conversation. The problem with many people is it becomes something they just memorize and never appreciate. Prayers should be more than just memorized and recited words. Those words should resonate in our minds, hearts and soul. How can a deeper level of appreciation develop if the language it is in is already a roadblock to many?

I learned to count in Cantonese because if you buy food from the Cantonese fastfood chains, they will give you a number when you order, then they’ll call out the numbers in Cantonese when your food is ready. Its a practical application.

I was also tempted to study French when I was applying for Canada. But I didn’t because I know I wouldn’t learn beyond the classroom, there weren’t enough French speakers in the Philippines. I wouldn’t survive an interview with Canadian immigration in French.