Is Liberal Catholicism Dead? - Time Article

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Rich_Olszewski said:
Better than most, sure, but 21% isn’t anything to crow about, given that Catholicism holds that marriage is supposed to be indissoluble.
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First, you might have conceded the point that there IS a signficant statistical difference, which you implied there was not.

Second, my suspicion is that you remove non-practicing Catholics from those who self-identify as Catholic you likely will reduce the percentage by another 5-10% since a significant percentage of Catholics are non-practicing in polls, while non-practicing Baptists, etc… no longer identify themselves with their faith.

Third, you cannot zero out the legal divorces among Catholics since a percentage of those are Church approved annulments, which is not a category recognized in the legal data.

Thus your one line quip, proved inaccurate, but instead of an omission of this, we recieved…another one line quip. 🤷
 
Prof_K said:
First, you might have conceded the point that there IS a signficant statistical difference, which you implied there was not.
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I’m no statistician, so I can’t argue with you as to whether that is significant statistically, but 21% appear high to me given the Church’s stance on marriage.
Thus your one line quip, proved inaccurate,
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A quip is a quip. It isn’t intended to be anything but an offhand remark. 🤷
 
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I don’t think that the old mentality of “pray, pay, and obey” will become universal again.
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Hey, if it gets me into heaven, I’m all for it. BTW does “pay” mean the one dollar bill that my father and grandfather would put in the basket count?
 
Ceil-1 said:
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Hey, if it gets me into heaven, I’m all for it. BTW does “pay” mean the one dollar bill that my father and grandfather would put in the basket count?
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Sigh. That anyone would put less than a Twenty in the basket in this day and age. 🤷
 
I just want to point out that the article is two years old, and doesn’t qualify as news. I think the discussion is interesting and worth having, but perhaps in a different forum would have been a better choice.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
I don’t think that the old mentality of “pray, pay, and obey” will become universal again.
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Among the ordained it never fell out of fashion. That is still the model, isn’t it?

The reason that liberalism is dying in the Church is that the sandalistas are getting old and dying off, and the younger liberals have left the Church.
 
PaulinVA said:
…the younger liberals have left the Church.
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Except for the high percentage of Catholic women who use ABC, maybe. I haven’t seen long lines at the Confessionals return, and the churches aren’t particularly packed, at least that I’ve seen, and seminaries and convents aren’t being overwhelmed by applicants. But, the opposite might be the case in other dioceses.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Except for the high percentage of Catholic women who use ABC, maybe. I haven’t seen long lines at the Confessionals return, and the churches aren’t particularly packed, at least that I’ve seen, and seminaries and convents aren’t being overwhelmed by applicants. But, the opposite might be the case in other dioceses.
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I’m not sure that’s a liberal versus conservative problem. Using ABC isn’t necessarily a liberal thing, is it? Well, okay, it’s not conservative. But, I think it goes to a general lack of belief on a lot of cultural Catholics’ part.

The problem in the Church today is a general lack of belief among the laity and a generally low reputation of the clergy.
 
PaulinVA said:
The problem in the Church today is a general lack of belief among the laity and a generally low reputation of the clergy.
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You might ask, “whose fault is it that the laity has a general lack of belief, and who brought on the generally low reputation of the clergy?” It’s not all the fault of the laity themselves.
 
There seems to be a strange expectation on the part of some that catholics, as a population, ought to be stunningly superior, morally, to other populations. Pick whatever issue you like: abortion, divorce, contraception, euthanasia, cohabitation, financial generosity, fetal stem cell research, war…

But history simply doesn’t bear this out. Catholics remain sinful humans, good, but fallen. We have Grace AVAILABLE to us, but we still quite frequently fail to accept it. We still have human frailty and still have free will.

What you DO see throughout history is exactly what the statistics here show. The catholic population as a whole shows a small, but influential positive influence on the culture at large. And the more you zoom in on catholics with the characteristics of faith (mass attendance, reception of other sacraments- notably confession, rates of giving), the bigger the difference gets.

Is Liberal catholicism dead? Nope. Never will be. There will always be people who choose their own desires over the Grace offered by God.

But the reaction against what is often called the old “pray, pay and obey” culture is largely over. It was a poor label and inspired people to adopt a slogan of “Navel Gaze, Indulge and Rebel” instead. Because the real fact is that when someone has a joyful faith in Christ chooses to “pray, pay and obey” great things result! Every Saint in history had the virtues of piety (prayer), generosity (pay) and humility (obedience). Every religious order in the church asks its members to take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. It is only when someone attempts to “pray, pay and obey” their way to heaven via searching for the absolute minimum criteria to “get in” that problems result.
 
manualman said:
Is Liberal catholicism dead? Nope. Never will be. There will always be people who choose their own desires over the Grace offered by God.
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Ah, yes. As opposed to conservative Catholics who always choose the Grace offered by God. 🤷
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
Ah, yes. As opposed to conservative Catholics who always choose the Grace offered by God. 🤷
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Well that’s the trouble with labels. They mean different things to different people.

Always? You seriously got that out of my post? Did you even read it? I specifically pointed out the fallacy of that kind of binary thinking. Sheesh.

What I DO say is that the more people joyfully seek out the will of God and ask Him to be conformed to it through Grace, the more it actually happens. You can call that conservative if you like, but I think that is far too narrow a label.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
You might ask, “whose fault is it that the laity has a general lack of belief, and who brought on the generally low reputation of the clergy?” It’s not all the fault of the laity themselves.
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Catholics have a reponsibility to catechise themselves and their children.Quit relying on others to do it for you.But that’s too easy-blame the Church,blame the schools,blame the clergy.The days when we were all taught by nuns and had 45 minutes DAILY of catechism are OVER.

Pick up your Bible,read papers like Humanae Vitae.Spend a few bucks on the Holy Father’s book-Jesus of Nazarus.GO TO MASS.,go to confession.The internet is choc-a-bloc with sites like Biblical Catholism,Madrid’s blog,John Martignoni’s site.Remember our dear lords caution about the seeds and where they fall and waning enthusiasm…THIS site is the BEST one on the web for Catechesis.

There is no excuse except disinterest for a Catholic not to be fully alive in Christ and knowledgeable as well.Blame ALL the clergy including the 98.8% of innocent saintly priests.It’s attitudes lke this that really encorage young men to consider a priestly vocation.

Quit complaining.Quit whinging and do something about it.Start a Bible-study group or an apolegetics group.Volunteer for the children’s liturgy.You’ve all been baptised and confirmed.You have the Holy Spirit within you.Get out from behind your keyboards and spread the good news by mouth when necessary.

Do you think that God at your final judgement is going to accept being lukewarm as the fault of anyone but your own???
 
No. At least not in my personal experience.

In the fall of 2008, I was trying to research Transubstantiation and was directed to some liberal websites. Being a novice, I accidentally lost the site of a very interesting take on Transubstantiation by a “liberal” blogger. In trying to find that website, I literally landed in the middle of a CAF post. In trying to get out, I accidentally registered…

So here I am. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretation, but I am seeing liberalism in Catholic posting.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
grannymh said:
No. At least not in my personal experience.

In the fall of 2008, I was trying to research Transubstantiation and was directed to some liberal websites. Being a novice, I accidentally lost the site of a very interesting take on Transubstantiation by a “liberal” blogger. In trying to find that website, I literally landed in the middle of a CAF post. In trying to get out, I accidentally registered…

So here I am. Maybe I am wrong in my interpretation, but I am seeing liberalism in Catholic posting.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
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Of course you’re going to see misguided liberalism here as some posters are misguided liberals.There are solid orthodox Catholics in the majority who post here.There is WAY more to Catholic Answers than these Fora-Check out the Library and Tracts sections-there are tons of resources.
 
I do note that you have3,853 posts under your belt-more than I do so I’m sure you’re altready aware of the resources here.Perhaps a Traditionalist site is what you seek.I assume you are not Catholic.
 
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