Is Life Teen an orthodox organization?

[Sean.McKenzie]

RichT:

These threads and polls regarding Life Teen are becoming more and more pathetic. Do you all really think the abuses are because of the Life Teen organization? Or could it be you are blindly missing the fact that each parish has a priest who is supposed to be in charge of what happens within their parish. Life Teen in itself is not to blame for the renegade priests in this country who chose to follow thier own ideas instead of the church’s.

These renegade priests allow abuse to continue with complete disregard to the church. If we do away with LIfe Teen, the abuse will still be present in the other masses. Unless you have visited every single parish in which Life Teen is present and can say without a doubt that all of them are full of abuses that are not seen in the regular masses, your arguments are nothing more than insessant whinings about something you simply don’t like on a personal level.

I will agree that any abuse is wrong and should be stopped, but let’s be fair and point the finger at the right person. I will say it again, it is the priests in these parishes who continue to allow abuses in their parishes, not the Life Teen orginization or any other group for that matter.

1. I am curious as to why this has turned into an attack. At any rate, i will grant you this, yes, the priests have to take responsibility for these abuses, however one would still need to look at the organization who advocates these problems. pg 31 of The Core Handbook tells the reader to “come early, with your focus on the teens.” I would think to be a good leader you must first have to come early with your focus on the mass, after all, isn’t your goal to be a good example?. It’s like trying to teach someone humility, when you yourself do not have that virtue. You cannot give what you do not have. How are the teens supposed to learn to focus on the mass if you yourself are not required to have that as your first and primary focus.
2. In my diocese there has been a number of problems rrelated to Life Teen. First on a more personal level, these Core members would literally withold information to my parents regarding my brothers whereabouts. So many times it seems that these core memebers are putting a wedge between the sanctity of a family. Allow me to explain, with personal issues aside, another example is this: I have yet to hear Life Teen convey the concept of a family to the teens, such as encouraging them to sit with their family, which is considered to be the nucleus of society. Father Peyton said it best

“The family that prays together stays together!.”

1. Interestingly enough, even earlier today, i was at mass, and after it had ended i was approached by a lady who made some small talk with me. She asked if i had ever been to a particular parish who facilitates this organization, i told her i had not and she told me why i should, she specifically mentioned the music first, how it is much like a rock concert, and how that is important for young teens. I suppose she assumed since i looked younger than her, that i was a “teen” and that it should appeal to me. So that in itself, was somwhat of an insult, implying that i could only appreciate something if it appealed to me or that it was loud etc.
2. In defense of those who have been posting on this thread, and in defense of myself, i would like see where you got “whining” from. If by my stating these facts and abuses make me a whiner, then i guess you would be prepared to accuse Rome of the same insult in which you so crassly accused me.
3. Assuming that certain Priests have been ignorant, or even irresponsible by turning a blind eye to it, never the less, should not Life Teen, be trying to prevent these abuses, instead of letting these so called “renegade priests” let them get away with it, and only taking action when asked to by Rome. I should think, if they are going to make a legitimate case for themselves they should at least bestow the courtesy of taking responsibility for these abuses and misunderstandings, and to rectify them whereever and whenever they occur?.

 

[RichT]

1. I am curious why this has turned into an attack. I will grant you this, yes, the priests have to take responsibility for abuses, however one would still need to look at the organization who advocates these problems. The Core Handbook tells the reader to “come early, with your focus on the teens.” I would think to be a good leader you must first have to come early with your focus on the mass, after all, isn’t your goal to be a good example?. How are the teens supposed to learn to focus on the mass if you yourself are not required to have that as your first and primary focus.

First, this isn’t a personal attack on anyone. It is a defense of the LT organization which you feel so comfortable attacking. As far as the core handbook, one would expect the leaders to already have an understanding of the mass and to always keep that as their priority. This is an organization that focuses on teens. Ands lets not forget that the Teen Mass is not the only function that LT is involved in. As far as LT advocating abuses, I will remind you that direction can only be given from the top. The local priests must take part in making sure that changes are made on the local level. If they are not willing to do that, then why are’nt you spending a little more time pointing your fingers at the local priest, and bishop?

2. In my diocese there has been a number of problems rrelated to Life Teen. First on a personal level, the Core members would withold information to my parents regarding my brothers whereabouts. Many times it seems that these core memebers are putting a wedge between the sanctity of a family. Allow me to explain another example is this: I have yet to hear LT convey the concept of family to the teens, such as encouraging them to sit with their family, which is considered to be the nucleus of society.

This is not an issue with the organization, but an issue with those running it in your particular Diocese. I would bring this complaint to the core leaders, the priest, and the bishop. If poeple are witholding information regarding the whereabouts of minor children, then yes, something needs to be done.

3. Interestingly enough, even earlier today, i was at mass, and after it had ended i was approached by a lady who made some small talk with me. She asked if i had ever been to a particular parish who facilitates this organization, i told her i had not and she told me why i should, she specifically mentioned the music first, how it is much like a rock concert, and how that is important for young teens. I suppose she assumed since i looked younger than her, that i was a “teen” and that it should appeal to me. So that in itself, was somwhat of an insult, implying that i could only appreciate something if it appealed to me or that it was loud etc.

Let me ask you this. How would you evangelize a person you just met on the street? If you really like something, don’t you tell people about it? Please.

4. In defense of those who have been posting on this thread, and in defense of myself, i would like see where you got “whining” from. If by my stating these facts and abuses make me a whiner, then i guess you would be prepared to accuse Rome of the same insult in which you so crassly accused me.

First and foremost, neither you or the others who complain about LT are Rome, nor will you ever be. The “whining” comment comes from reading negative posts about LT since this forum was entroduced. The bottom line is this, if you are unhappy with the organization, then don’t be a part of it, or learn to complain to the right people.

5. Assuming that certain Priests have been ignorant, or even irresponsible by turning a blind eye to it, never the less, should not Life Teen, be trying to prevent these abuses, instead of letting these so called “renegade priests” let them get away with it, and only taking action when asked to by Rome. I should think, if they are going to make a legitimate case for themselves they should at least bestow the courtesy of taking responsibility for these abuses and misunderstandings, and to rectify them whereever and whenever they occur?.

If the priests are turning their eyes to the problems, then shame on them, not LT. LT doesn’t just show up and take over a parish. The priest does have a little something to do with it. Afterall, who is saying mass in your diocese, the LT core members?

My comments were not meant as a personal attack, but instead were meant to point out the obvious. LT is not the problem. There are hundreds of parishes where the vast majority are happy wth LT, including the priests, and the bishop. And yes, there are unfortunately dioceses like yours that need some help. I appreciate the concern over any abuse, but lets quit blaming the wrong people.

Also, forgive me for editing your post, but I did so in the interest of space.

 

[palmas85]

I still cannot fathom the purpose of Life Teen. The only thing that I have seen it do is to create separate classes of worship and fostered the belief that teens for whatever reason cannot worship and should not worship the general community. This kind of brings back memories of my own teen years in the late sixties when the general opinion was we were the future, we knew best and don’t trust anyone over 30. Boy those were the days huh? All the dope you could smoke and all the free love you could handle. Seems like a lot of people would like to see those days return.

 

[Prometheum_x]

Sean.McKenzie:

You are absolutley correct. However you logic fails, and i will tell you why. Yes gregorian chant and traditional music was at one point new, however, the Church has made these melodies or hymns the official hymns for the Church. Just because the music in life teen falls into the same circumstance (it being new) it is not recognized by the Church, i have not seen Jars of Clay, Caedmons Call, Matt Redman, nor even Tom Booth etc. recieve that honour. Even still, yes gregorian chant was new at one point new, i’ll grant you that, however, it was instituted by The Holy Father, Pope Gregory. Has JPII or B-16 instituted these Christian artists into the norms for music? NO!!!

Gregorian chant and other forms of plain chant were not suddenly created at the time of Pope Gregory. Rather those musical forms had already been use – and were in fact drawn out of musical traditions that pre-existed the Church.

At one time the organ was virtually banned from use in the liturgy, in practice if not by official policy. This was because of the organ’s strong association with Roman events that were most decidedly secular, if not downright pagan. And now, it has an esteemed place in the musical tradition of the Roman rite.

 

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

I still cannot fathom the purpose of Life Teen. The only thing that I have seen it do is to create separate classes of worship and fostered the belief that teens for whatever reason cannot worship and should not worship the general community. This kind of brings back memories of my own teen years in the late sixties when the general opinion was we were the future, we knew best and don’t trust anyone over 30. Boy those were the days huh? All the dope you could smoke and all the free love you could handle. Seems like a lot of people would like to see those days return.

The purpose of Life Teen at *my *parish at least is to be a catechetical program. As the music coordinator for the LifeTeen program, one of my priorities is to have as much unity and seamless integration (in terms of music) with the regular Sunday morning masses. We have mass on Sunday night so that after mass, when all the youth are already there, we can then offer them various teachings and activities to help strengthen and deepen their faith. It is simply easier to do that on a Sunday evening then on a Sunday morning.

 

[MikeMaturenMDiv]

Actually, the gift of the Holy Spirit are NOT a general gift that everyone gets, as you seem to imply here. Scripture CLEARLY teaches that SOME get the gift of tongues, OTHERS prophecy, etc.

So if got has graced one with the gift of praying in tongues, they had BETTER be using it for the betterment of the Kingdom. Likewise, not everyone who is prayed for is “slain in the Spirit”. I have prayed for some who have, and some who haven’t. Part of the equation is how open and ready the recipient of the prayer is to receive this gift from God.

Some of the LifeTeen abuses (most I would daresay) come at the Parish level, when it is implemented by dissenting Priests or left-wing DRE’s.

Mike Maturen, MDiv

Sean said:]

• I have been to Life Teen programs in which frequently the leaders pray over a certain teen in the form of tongues, as if it is a gift given to just anyone, this is apalling i do not doubt, that the Holy Spirit does cause thiose gifts to occur, but it being sported around like a pair oif shoes, only a select few actually have that ability. As well as being slain in the spirit during adoration.*

 

[MikeMaturenMDiv]

Actually, the gift of the Holy Spirit are NOT a general gift that everyone gets, as you seem to imply here. Scripture CLEARLY teaches that SOME get the gift of tongues, OTHERS prophecy, etc.

So if got has graced one with the gift of praying in tongues, they had BETTER be using it for the betterment of the Kingdom. Likewise, not everyone who is prayed for is “slain in the Spirit”. I have prayed for some who have, and some who haven’t. Part of the equation is how open and ready the recipient of the prayer is to receive this gift from God.

Some of the LifeTeen abuses (most I would daresay) come at the Parish level, when it is implemented by dissenting Priests or left-wing DRE’s.

Mike Maturen, MDiv

I have been to Life Teen programs in which frequently the leaders pray over a certain teen in the form of tongues, as if it is a gift given to just anyone, this is apalling i do not doubt, that the Holy Spirit does cause thiose gifts to occur, but it being sported around like a pair oif shoes, only a select few actually have that ability. As well as being slain in the spirit during adoration.

 

[jacobisrael33]

Prometheum_x:

According to the Lifeteen.com website, there were 842 parishes participating in the Lifeteen program in some capacity. Without minimizing or denying what you have seen, I wonder whether you have experienced what could be considered a representative sample of those parishes. How many different parishes with Lifeteen programs have you seen? 10% is 84 different parishes. If you had visited 84 different parishes which were located in different dioceses, then I at least would consider that to be a good sample.

“leading closer to christ”

 

[Topher]

Look guys, the charasmatic stuff in life teen can be a bit Kooky at times but the organizationa as a whole is pretty good. My parish is a very orthodox and lively one. In fact, it is probably the most orthodox parish in the state. And we also have a thriving life teen program. We have worked very hard and really have seen a lot of fruit when it comes to teaching kids the Catholic faith and bringing them closer to Christ. Furthermore, our life teen mass is very much in line with the dictates of the Church. The teen agers do NOT circle the altar. They do NOT put their arms around eachother and sway. Rather they are invited to the front of the Church for the Eucharistic Liturgy but they kneel and stand at the appropriate times and do not enter the sanctuary. Also, our priests are very very strict about maintaining the words and actions of the Liturgy to the T. The music is contemporary, but what is wrong with that? It is not as if we play “rock and role” and no style of music was ever specifically created by God. The tone of our Life Teen mass is reverant and our teachings orthodox.
By the way, this is coming form a life teen core member who would love to see a return to the Tridentine rite as the norm but who believes that Life Teen has its place.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

Look guys, the charasmatic stuff in life teen can be a bit Kooky at times but the organizationa as a whole is pretty good. My parish is a very orthodox and lively one. In fact, it is probably the most orthodox parish in the state. And we also have a thriving life teen program. We have worked very hard and really have seen a lot of fruit when it comes to teaching kids the Catholic faith and bringing them closer to Christ. Furthermore, our life teen mass is very much in line with the dictates of the Church. The teen agers do NOT circle the altar. They do NOT put their arms around eachother and sway. Rather they are invited to the front of the Church for the Eucharistic Liturgy but they kneel and stand at the appropriate times and do not enter the sanctuary. Also, our priests are very very strict about maintaining the words and actions of the Liturgy to the T. The music is contemporary, but what is wrong with that? It is not as if we play “rock and role” and no style of music was ever specifically created by God. The tone of our Life Teen mass is reverant and our teachings orthodox.
By the way, this is coming form a life teen core member who would love to see a return to the Tridentine rite as the norm but who believes that Life Teen has its place.

Invited forward to the altar for the liturgy. Um, Oh yeah, Billy Graham used to do that in his revivals. Yep invite everyone down front so they could make a personal committment to Christ. I didn’t know that life teem used protestant revival methods in order to get the message across. I always though t the Mass itself was enough, even when I was a teen. And I grew up in the mid sixties and early seventies when alll this “more relevent” nonsense was just coming into vogue.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

Invited forward to the altar for the liturgy. Um, Oh yeah, Billy Graham used to do that in his revivals. Yep invite everyone down front so they could make a personal committment to Christ. I didn’t know that life teem used protestant revival methods in order to get the message across. I always though t the Mass itself was enough, even when I was a teen. And I grew up in the mid sixties and early seventies when alll this “more relevent” nonsense was just coming into vogue.

It is not an altar call. It is simply having the teens be closer to the front of the church. I am sure that an intelligent person such as yourself can see the difference. There is nothing in the Girm that says that certain people are not allowed to be closer to the front.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

It is not an altar call. It is simply having the teens be closer to the front of the church. I am sure that an intelligent person such as yourself can see the difference. There is nothing in the Girm that says that certain people are not allowed to be closer to the front.

Maybe I’m stupid or dense, but if you invite people to come down to the altar it sure looks like an altar call to me.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

Maybe I’m stupid or dense, but if you invite people to come down to the altar it sure looks like an altar call to me.

Are the teen being invited forward to “give their heart to Jesus and be saved”? Are they praying the “sinner’s prayer”. No they are not. It is only becoming an altar call in your mind because you want to find anyway possible to discredit Life Teen. Protestants use this same kind of tactic to attack Catholics. They say that it looks like we are worshiping statues of mary and so because it looks like that to them, then we must be worshiping mary. You and I know that that is absurd in the same way that your argument is absurd.

 

[palmas85]

Topher:

Are the teen being invited forward to “give their heart to Jesus and be saved”? Are they praying the “sinner’s prayer”. No they are not. It is only becoming an altar call in your mind because you want to find anyway possible to discredit Life Teen. Protestants use this same kind of tactic to attack Catholics. They say that it looks like we are worshiping statues of mary and so because it looks like that to them, then we must be worshiping mary. You and I know that that is absurd in the same way that your argument is absurd.

I don’t think my argument is absurd at all. They are invited to the altar. They stand around or in front of the altar often in the sanctuary. You tell me what it is if not an altar call. There is really no good reason for it that I can think, of can you? If so what? Are they closer to God? Are they participating more fully by being physically closer to the altar? Whay are they there?

No, they are invited down so they feel special and singled out. Just the same rationale behind an altar call. make them feel special and show their devotion to God where everyone can see it. thats all it is. Nothing more than a revival ploy to get the emotions lifted. Protestants use it all the time because basically their whole concept of worship is based on a one on one relationship with Jesus manifested by physical feelings and strong emotional release. The handclapping, swaying, emotional praises, highly charged music etc, all designed to bring out the emotional release that they can claim is the Holy Spirit talking to them. Go to a snake handlers meeting. They really get into it, talk about spirit filled!! Watch a guy drink a gallon of kerosine or let a rattlesnake bite him. I mean these people really have some faith.

Not only Protestants use it. If you want to see some good ones, go to either a Voodoo ceremony or a Brazilian Spiritualist Meeting. Exactly the same concept, same emotional activities almost identical in every respect.
I

And yes, I think Teen Life Masses need to be scrapped along with some of the other “experiments” that the Vatican has tried over the years. They don’t work and have only served in my view to pull the faith down. I don’t think the message of the Roman Catholic Church is so weak that we need all the Protestant bells and whistles. And if that is what the people are responding to, it is not Catholicism anyway.

Sometims in an effort to accomodate. you give away too much, and end up losing what you are…

 

[Prometheum_x]

palmas85:

I don’t think my argument is absurd at all. They are invited to the altar. They stand around or in front of the altar often in the sanctuary. You tell me what it is if not an altar call. There is really no good reason for it that I can think, of can you? If so what? Are they closer to God? Are they participating more fully by being physically closer to the altar? Whay are they there?

No, they are invited down so they feel special and singled out. Just the same rationale behind an altar call. make them feel special and show their devotion to God where everyone can see it. thats all it is. Nothing more than a revival ploy to get the emotions lifted. Protestants use it all the time because basically their whole concept of worship is based on a one on one relationship with Jesus manifested by physical feelings and strong emotional release. The handclapping, swaying, emotional praises, highly charged music etc, all designed to bring out the emotional release that they can claim is the Holy Spirit talking to them. Go to a snake handlers meeting. They really get into it, talk about spirit filled!! Watch a guy drink a gallon of kerosine or let a rattlesnake bite him. I mean these people really have some faith.

Not only Protestants use it. If you want to see some good ones, go to either a Voodoo ceremony or a Brazilian Spiritualist Meeting. Exactly the same concept, same emotional activities almost identical in every respect.
I

And yes, I think Teen Life Masses need to be scrapped along with some of the other “experiments” that the Vatican has tried over the years. They don’t work and have only served in my view to pull the faith down. I don’t think the message of the Roman Catholic Church is so weak that we need all the Protestant bells and whistles. And if that is what the people are responding to, it is not Catholicism anyway.

Sometims in an effort to accomodate. you give away too much, and end up losing what you are…

When we enter the church in the first place we draw near to the altar. When we go forward to receive the Eucharist, we are drawing closer to the altar. The pews all face the altar. Perhaps we should not be so altar-centric. Perhaps everyone should face in all different directions, and the priest should walk from row to row with the Eucharist, lest anyone approach the altar or even look at it and be like those evil protestants, who do nothing good, only bad.

 

[Topher]

palmas85:

I don’t think my argument is absurd at all. They are invited to the altar. They stand around or in front of the altar often in the sanctuary. You tell me what it is if not an altar call. There is really no good reason for it that I can think, of can you? If so what? Are they closer to God? Are they participating more fully by being physically closer to the altar? Whay are they there?

No, they are invited down so they feel special and singled out. Just the same rationale behind an altar call. make them feel special and show their devotion to God where everyone can see it. thats all it is. Nothing more than a revival ploy to get the emotions lifted. Protestants use it all the time because basically their whole concept of worship is based on a one on one relationship with Jesus manifested by physical feelings and strong emotional release. The handclapping, swaying, emotional praises, highly charged music etc, all designed to bring out the emotional release that they can claim is the Holy Spirit talking to them. Go to a snake handlers meeting. They really get into it, talk about spirit filled!! Watch a guy drink a gallon of kerosine or let a rattlesnake bite him. I mean these people really have some faith.

Not only Protestants use it. If you want to see some good ones, go to either a Voodoo ceremony or a Brazilian Spiritualist Meeting. Exactly the same concept, same emotional activities almost identical in every respect.
I

And yes, I think Teen Life Masses need to be scrapped along with some of the other “experiments” that the Vatican has tried over the years. They don’t work and have only served in my view to pull the faith down. I don’t think the message of the Roman Catholic Church is so weak that we need all the Protestant bells and whistles. And if that is what the people are responding to, it is not Catholicism anyway.

Sometims in an effort to accomodate. you give away too much, and end up losing what you are…

. An altar call by the way is used by protestants for people to “get saved” and that is not what happens at life teen. Having teens stand at the front of the Church, simply helps them to realize that the Church and the Eucharist is for them and not Just for their Grandmas. They too are called to live a life in Christ just as much as their parents are and this is just a device that helps them realize that.
And by the way, although our faith should never be based on emotions, emotions are not irrelevant. They are good because they are created by God. They simplyl need to be governed by reason. To believe otherwise is heresy.
And I don’t believe that the message of the Catholic Church is so weak that mordern worship music will destroy it.

 

[Topher]

Prometheum_x:

When we enter the church in the first place we draw near to the altar. When we go forward to receive the Eucharist, we are drawing closer to the altar. The pews all face the altar. Perhaps we should not be so altar-centric. Perhaps everyone should face in all different directions, and the priest should walk from row to row with the Eucharist, lest anyone approach the altar or even look at it and be like those evil protestants, who do nothing good, only bad.

Haha! good post. Yeah, maybe by drawing near to the altar we might start the heresy of worshiping Jesus in the Eucharist. Oh wait, that is not heresy. We are supposed to do that. The way the ultratraditionalists make it sound we should all be running away form Jesus in the Eucharist. And if standing near the Eucharist doesn’t help us to get closer to Christ (at least physically), then what is the point of having adoration. Along the line of thinking of the ultratraditionalists we may as well give up having a blessed sacrament Chapel.

 

[Gregory24]

Do a search on me, and see the post of the horrors I saw at a life teen mass

 

[Prometheum_x]

Gregory24:

Do a search on me, and see the post of the horrors I saw at a life teen mass

Nobody denies the horrors that have been seen at lifeteen masses.

Nobody denies the horrors that have been seen at other non-lifeteen masses either.

 

[Topher]

Gregory24:

Do a search on me, and see the post of the horrors I saw at a life teen mass

I am not denying that some Life Teen masses are bad. But guess what there is a Tridentine mass in my dioscese that is bad. Bad masses are not intrinsic to Life Teen. I think that my parish is a shinning example of how a Life Teen mass should be done. Very litrugically correct. No teens in the sanctuary swaying. The rubrics for the mass are followed and there is very orthodox teaching coming form the priests.