Is Life Worth Living?

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Robertanthony,

I’m with you in spirit brother. 👍
I’ll see you on the other side. 😃

As multibillionaire Donald Trump said about life,

“It’s all luck.” :bigyikes: :banghead: :hypno:
 
As multibillionaire Donald Trump said about life,

“It’s all luck.”
And as Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:23)
 
Originally Posted by empther
As multibillionaire Donald Trump said about life,
“It’s all luck.”
And as Jesus said, “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for one who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” (Mark 10:23)

Has no relevance to the subject matter at all. I hope you don’t think that was clever.
 
I don’t like blanket statements, the experience of life is vastly diiferent from one person to the next: in school I barely knew a guy, a few years later i find out he had a mutlimedia company, which he ended up selling–>a millionaire before he reached 30. Whereas my experience of life has essentially been of not fitting in, not being enough, I’ve been told I was dumb, I’ve never believed in myself, always thought I was a loser waiting to be exposed, always thought I had nothing to contribute and that working dead-end, physically exhausting and boring jobs was my destiny, living a frustrating life teeming with anxiety and precarity was the Universe’s decree for me, so obviously for me life is not worth living. I’m not gifted for life, gifted for living, God has been very gracious in the last couple of years, but not quite the way I wanted nor to the extent I wanted. Empther is partially right about money: as someone with social anxiety, if I were alone money would do me no good, but with somebody to love and to be loved by, money literally makes the difference between me being burdened and sometimes being made hopeless by life versus me being genuinely happy to be alive. Looking at all the valleys and sunk heart in my adult life, money would have either solved or alleviated 99% of them. I think money as an antidepressant has made its mark (pun intended), poverty as a potent depressant has also made its mark. What I had to put into life, constantly going against my nature, my will, being where i didn’t want to be for hours upon hours, which end up being years versus what I got out of it is ludicrous, the worst form of investment anyone could pick. Of course all would be well, sort of, if 80 years of a tough life was all I had, but the reality is probably that there is a God who will determine at my death if i will be eternally happy or miserable. So, life is not worth living for me is all i can say. I’ve always felt like I was born on the wrong side of God’s will, with pathetic genes, cursed to a certain extent, money would lift the curse, the curse would swiftly obey like a fearful puppy, but usually people who can amass a great deal of money have something going for them, or have inherited or won the lottery, no such luck for me. Security , peace of mind, the door to most dreams, money is a many-splendored thing.
Yes, money is better, especially when you don’t have enough of it. But since you still believe in G-d and in eternal happiness or eternal misery, why assume that you will be destined toward misery? Maybe your suffering in this life is a test and a kind of purgatory that is designed to make you worthy for the happiness in the afterlife. That is something no amount of money can buy.
 
Has no relevance to the subject matter at all. I hope you don’t think that was clever.
Actually it holds plenty of relevance against what you’ve had to say if you care to read Mark 10. Money is not the goal of life; to be able to enter the Kindom of God is. Life is worth living just so we can be given that chance.
 
Originally Posted by empther
Has no relevance to the subject matter at all. I hope you don’t think that was clever.
Actually it holds plenty of relevance against what you’ve had to say if you care to read Mark 10. Money is not the goal of life; to be able to enter the Kindom of God is. Life is worth living just so we can be given that chance.

That’s not what the thread is about.
The thread is about whether life in this world, the reality we live with now, is worth it for its own sake,
not about salvation.
The testimony of the thread shows that for some life is good, enjoyable, worth repeating if necessary. For others, life was miserable and they would NOT do it all over again.
That’s what the thread is about.

From today’s Sunday Mass gospel reading:

Matthew chapt 6
31
So do not worry and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or ‘What are we to drink?’ or ‘What are we to wear?’
32
All these things the pagans seek. Your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.
33
But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness,* and all these things will be given you besides.
34
Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself…
( er,… ok so far, I guess. How does Jesus finish this? :confused: )
… Sufficient for a day is its own evil.
:bigyikes: :banghead: :crying:

Jesus himself says our lives are plagued by evil, and we can guess that some will have more evil than others,
or some will consider their lives good enough to look back on with satisfaction,
while others will wish it could have been completely different.
 
God has made man superior to all living beings . He has given him power and brain . If you feel that life is not worth living then just listen to the words of Elizabeth Ann “Lizzie” Velasquez - the ugliest girl in the world . Even when huge cosmetic surgery centers are popping up all around the world the persons like Lizzie still exists with in the world fully satisfied with their life because she learned to fight with the evil inside her own mind . No matter what others do or think…It is all about our perceptions… Life is precious…Just don’t waste it on such useless thoughts…
 
Yes, money is better, especially when you don’t have enough of it. But since you still believe in G-d and in eternal happiness or eternal misery, why assume that you will be destined toward misery? Maybe your suffering in this life is a test and a kind of purgatory that is designed to make you worthy for the happiness in the afterlife. That is something no amount of money can buy.
When a child is placed in the naughty corner at some point the punishment needs to stop. From the get go (meaning my conception, literally) I’ve been up against a wall, in a hostile environment (heck my mom was in terrible stress when she was carrying me, she wished she ‘d miscarry and WAS DUMB ENOUGH TO FREAKING TELL ME YEARS AGO). My dad, in some respects, was as warm, selfless and mentally balanced as Robert De Niro in the movie The Fan. In my worldview God is both omnipotent and omniscient, Satan is like a stupid, helpless Pit Bull on a leash, God needs to free him if he’s going to harm anyone. My spineless mom could have miscarried as she had wished, but God wasn’t going to let me off the hook that easily, was he? The only time when God gets nervous is when I get too close to being happy and moving past the mortifying past. More prosaically, I am the unfortunate product of an inferior man, a passive, manipulative woman without much of a personality, I have subpar genes, those confounded genes expressed themselves, and here I am, a lifetime of losing behind my belt, considering God like anything but an ally, I repeated a year very early in my schooling, got deeply hurt and humiliated by that, was the only one wearing glasses in grade 1, by then I was already a self-conscious mess , ADD/ADHD, enuresia until an age when it’ s not even funny, went to a school with a whole floor devoted to handicapped children, two guys I sort of befriended told me they thought I was handicapped when they first saw me because I squinted. Yeah, good times. God thinks he did me a huge favour by creating me! How do i begin to tell him?

Money is much more than what you say it is, if i were financially independant, God would need to work really hard to make me feel cursed, life would be a succession of dreams, positive experiences, doors open left and right instead of a shriveled, stagnant life. Without money, I am at the mercy of God’s will and life’s hostility. Satan is powerless without God’s knowing grin, they’re really like politicians who seem to hate each other’s guts when the camera is rolling, behind closed doors they’re having a good laugh. seriously, who would want to have a Heavenly father who puts one of his “children” through hell to make a point (Job). Never mind the fact that his wife probably lost her soul in the process. Life is a lottery, I picked a losing ticket. I am not necessary, the world would still go round despite my not being here, nothing was right about my conception (came at a bad time, dad was p*ssed when my mother broke the news), I am not smart, my whole being is made up of subpar, worthless material, I am cheaply made, my personality has been stifled in the whole process, I am a shadow of a man, the only person truly responsible for this mess is God. Make me equipped to face life or don’t make me. God is as worthless as my earthly father. You gotta be heartless to create someone knowing they’ll feel alienated in life and will never find their place in life, spending their whole lives wishing things away and wishing God had never had the stupid idea to create them. Money would change all that, money is an antidote against hopelessness, do you think God will bless me financially, going against his destiny of lack and failure? God is liberal, lavish, gracious with some and a stingy meanie with others. LIving from paycheck to paycheck after all the slaps in the face I had to take, you’re kidding, right? That’s the perfect, awesome, eternal plan for me. :rolleyes: God, you mean no scholarship to a US university, no graduation cum laude, no exciting career that I’m an expert in and respected in, you mean not enough money to go to Paris, visit the castles in Bordeaux, go to New York City, you really mean no island hopping in the Bahamas, no house of my dream (around 250 000$ 5-10 years ago), you mean no condo in Florida (people whose blog I followed bought a nice one in Naples for around 120 000$), you mean I’m not going to go to Disneyworld either, no your awesome plan for me is minimum wage jobs for 2 decades, then a “huge” promotion: a menial, routine job that any old dummy could learn in 3 or 4 days. I never had an ambition or a desire to be powerful or rich as Donal Trump, but a couple of hundred grand would have made the difference between a life I curse and a life I embrace. I had to live my whole life defeated, no real break for this loser. It makes you want to be eternally with the genius who allows children with loving, psychologically sound parents and a bright future to die of cancer, and gives a long life to people who feel they don’t belong in this life. Money would be the deus ex machina in this lousy play written by God. OK genius why don’t you give life to people who will be happy with the gift? Thanks for the inferiority complex, thanks for the excessive shyness, thanks for the sense of shame, thanks for the bleak future for all these years, thanks for the heart-expanding loneliness, thanks for the deep-seated inadequacy, thanks for never materializing 95% of my dreams, I appreciate your fatherly love and concern, thanks for reminding me how much you love me (:p), thanks for prospering everyone who ever thought I was a joke of a human being.
 
…For others, life was miserable and they would NOT do it all over again.
That’s what the thread is about.

…Jesus himself says our lives are plagued by evil, and we can guess that some will have more evil than others,
or some will consider their lives good enough to look back on with satisfaction,
while others will wish it could have been completely different.
And others wish it could be different and do-able NOW.
Yesterday, in fact…
 
I fully empathize with Robertanthony and empther. I also have a very negative outlook on life, and I know how much money can make a difference on your outlook. Hey, I know things /could/ be worse. I could have been born a poor Somalian. But none of us has any say in any of that, and must live in the culture to which we were born. Therefore the comparisons are to that which surrounds you.

I have never been happy. I have always been searching. I have entered into RCIA now, in my 40’s, as part of that search, and will be joining the Catholic Church at Easter vigil, yet my Catholic /education/ these last few months has made me feel even worse about life and about my eternal prospects.

I have attachment to sin…sin I think of as minor, and one of the few things that actually makes me feel OK for awhile, something i enjoy, yet I’m told it is a Mortal sin worthy of sending me to Hell. I must repent. I can /say/ I repent, but in my heart I still want to continue doing what I have been doing. I don’t feel sorry in my heart. So now I feel like my destiny is Hell.

I didn’t ask to be born. I don’t feel like God’s love is /unconditional/. No, in fact it has all sorts of conditions…follow my Law or else you will suffer for eternity. As a father myself, I would never wish my child to suffer for eternity, no matter WHAT he or she did. I would take them back at ANY time, from now to forever. Yet we are told that once our Earthly life ends, then any chance of /redemption/ ends, and if you happen to be in Mortal sin, well then you get to suffer forever and ever and ever. Thanks a LOT!

Jesus Himself said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

and my personal favorite, and very applicable to this discussion…

The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24).

This is the scariest thing…

catholic.com/magazine/articles/hell-yes-part-ii

particularly…

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48)

In other words, be my slave and do what I say, even though you never asked to be here or be born, or you will be “THROWN INTO HELL”, according to scripture. Nice.

I thought religion would help me feel better about life, and more close to God, and all it has done is made me more depressed about my eternal future, and sadder than ever.
 
I thought religion would help me feel better about life, and more close to God, and all it has done is made me more depressed about my eternal future, and sadder than ever.
The antidote to all your anxieties is to strive to be as holy as you can be.

Why then would you have all these worries? :confused:
 
The antidote to all your anxieties is to strive to be as holy as you can be.

Why then would you have all these worries? :confused:
I will re-state…

I have attachment to sin…sin I think of as minor, and one of the few things that actually makes me feel OK for awhile, something I enjoy, yet I’m told it is a Mortal sin worthy of sending me to Hell. I must repent. I can /say/ I repent, but in my heart I still want to continue doing what I have been doing. I don’t feel sorry in my heart. So now I feel like my destiny is Hell.

Being “Holy” doesn’t sound like much fun, nor something I even feel I can be. It does sound like being a slave. Is that what we are? God wants us to do what He says out of fear? I know the Catholic view is He wants us to do it out of “love”, but I still argue that “love” doesn’t say "do this, or you will be “thrown into Hell”.
 
I will re-state…

I have attachment to sin…sin I think of as minor, and one of the few things that actually makes me feel OK for awhile, something I enjoy, yet I’m told it is a Mortal sin worthy of sending me to Hell. I must repent. I can /say/ I repent, but in my heart I still want to continue doing what I have been doing. I don’t feel sorry in my heart. So now I feel like my destiny is Hell.

Being “Holy” doesn’t sound like much fun, nor something I even feel I can be. It does sound like being a slave. Is that what we are? God wants us to do what He says out of fear? I know the Catholic view is He wants us to do it out of “love”, but I still argue that “love” doesn’t say "do this, or you will be “thrown into Hell”.
"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

Listen and win!
 
I will re-state…

Being “Holy” doesn’t sound like much fun, nor something I even feel I can be. It does sound like being a slave. Is that what we are? God wants us to do what He says out of fear? I know the Catholic view is He wants us to do it out of “love”, but I still argue that “love” doesn’t say "do this, or you will be “thrown into Hell”.

Holiness, you’re right, may not be lots of fun as you have known fun. Is sin fun? Is sin fun when you feel guilt for your sins? Do you never feel guilt for your sins? Does sin bring joy into your life?

Holiness isn’t supposed to bring fun. It’s supposed to bring joy.

Doesn’t sound like you are convinced of that.

Sounds like you see God as a purveyor of fear, rather than a lover of his children.

Perhaps we shouldn’t knock holiness and love of the Lord until we’ve tried it. 👍

God does not send us to hell. We send ourselves by our lack of love.

It’s O.K. to fear the Lord, but only as you’d fear your parents when you disobey them.
 
Holiness, you’re right, may not be lots of fun as you have known fun. Is sin fun? Is sin fun when you feel guilt for your sins? Do you never feel guilt for your sins? Does sin bring joy into your life?

Holiness isn’t supposed to bring fun. It’s supposed to bring joy.

Doesn’t sound like you are convinced of that.

Sounds like you see God as a purveyor of fear, rather than a lover of his children.

Perhaps we shouldn’t knock holiness and love of the Lord until we’ve tried it. 👍

God does not send us to hell. We send ourselves by our lack of love.

It’s O.K. to fear the Lord, but only as you’d fear your parents when you disobey them.
I wouldn’t fear my parents when I disobeyed them because I know that their punishment is not eternal.

It is very common for Catholic apologists to argue that we are not “punished” with hell, but choose it.

St. Paul calls it “punishment”.

[Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus] shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. (2 Thess. 1:8-9)

Jesus Himself also calls it “punishment”, not just separation.

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, “Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”. . . Then he will say to those at his left hand, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”. . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)

Sure sounds like fear-based teaching to me.

I really wish I had never been born so I wouldn’t have this fear.

The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24)

Truly frightening, if you ask me.
 
I wouldn’t fear my parents when I disobeyed them because I know that their punishment is not eternal.

It is very common for Catholic apologists to argue that we are not “punished” with hell, but choose it.

St. Paul calls it “punishment”.

[Those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus] shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might. (2 Thess. 1:8-9)

Jesus Himself also calls it “punishment”, not just separation.

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, “Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”. . . Then he will say to those at his left hand, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”. . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt. 25:31-46)

Sure sounds like fear-based teaching to me.

I really wish I had never been born so I wouldn’t have this fear.

The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24)

Truly frightening, if you ask me.
Sounds that way to me too. The notion of man choosing hell is a relatively new development and is certainly NOT what I was taught in CCD. It honestly comes across like a P. R. campaign to soften what is there in black and white and what the priest and nuns taught until quite recently.
If humans choose their eternal destination, there would be no need for a judgement. Just take whichever door you want.
 
I thought this thread was dead for good.
Maybe that he feels himself stuck in the current geometry of his life?
ICXC NIKA
Merci, mon ami. Nicely put, also.
I fully empathize with Robertanthony and empther. I also have a very negative outlook on life, and I know how much money can make a difference on your outlook. Hey, I know things /could/ be worse. I could have been born a poor Somalian. But none of us has any say in any of that, and must live in the culture to which we were born. Therefore the comparisons are to that which surrounds you.

I have never been happy. I have always been searching. I have entered into RCIA now, in my 40’s, as part of that search, and will be joining the Catholic Church at Easter vigil, yet my Catholic /education/ these last few months has made me feel even worse about life and about my eternal prospects.

I have attachment to sin…sin I think of as minor, and one of the few things that actually makes me feel OK for awhile, something i enjoy, yet I’m told it is a Mortal sin worthy of sending me to Hell. I must repent. I can /say/ I repent, but in my heart I still want to continue doing what I have been doing. I don’t feel sorry in my heart. So now I feel like my destiny is Hell.

I didn’t ask to be born. I don’t feel like God’s love is /unconditional/. No, in fact it has all sorts of conditions…follow my Law or else you will suffer for eternity. As a father myself, I would never wish my child to suffer for eternity, no matter WHAT he or she did. I would take them back at ANY time, from now to forever. Yet we are told that once our Earthly life ends, then any chance of /redemption/ ends, and if you happen to be in Mortal sin, well then you get to suffer forever and ever and ever. Thanks a LOT!

Jesus Himself said:

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

and my personal favorite, and very applicable to this discussion…

The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born" (Matt. 26:24).

This is the scariest thing…

catholic.com/magazine/articles/hell-yes-part-ii

particularly…

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched. (Mark 9:43-48)

In other words, be my slave and do what I say, even though you never asked to be here or be born, or you will be “THROWN INTO HELL”, according to scripture. Nice.

I thought religion would help me feel better about life, and more close to God, and all it has done is made me more depressed about my eternal future, and sadder than ever.
Take all sin from my life and I will sink into a depression from which I will never emerge. I love money, the thought of having money, where money equals having a life I am genuinely happy to live, God condemns the love of money. Sin is one area where I find comfort for the past, present pains, lacks and frustrations, and anxiety about the future. Every point you mention resonates with me.
I will re-state…

I have attachment to sin…sin I think of as minor, and one of the few things that actually makes me feel OK for awhile, something I enjoy, yet I’m told it is a Mortal sin worthy of sending me to Hell. I must repent. I can /say/ I repent, but in my heart I still want to continue doing what I have been doing. I don’t feel sorry in my heart. So now I feel like my destiny is Hell.

Being “Holy” doesn’t sound like much fun, nor something I even feel I can be. It does sound like being a slave. Is that what we are? God wants us to do what He says out of fear? I know the Catholic view is He wants us to do it out of “love”, but I still argue that “love” doesn’t say "do this, or you will be “thrown into Hell”.
Agreed.
"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

Listen and win!
Not everyone who will make it to Heaven will have been a miserable slave in this life. I’m sure there are loads of people (Heaven-bound) who are well off, have great friends, great careers, a life they are deeply satisfied with, they don’t think of themselves as slaves, why would I have to be miserable, unhappy, tormented, painfully eradicating sin each day of my life, where I live being a vocal Catholic is a social suicide, why would Heaven cost me everything down here while the next guy enjoys his life and has a trusting loving relationship with God? Did Jesus really say that his yoke is easy? :eek: What!?!?.:confused:
 
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