Is Logic Behind Immaculate Conception in Contradiction with Logic of Eucharist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RCE
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RCE

Guest
I understand that much of the reason, or logic, behind the immaculate conception of Mary lies in the fact that she had to be a pure vessel in order to carry God in her womb; with our sin we cannot physically be in the presence of God who is perfect or we would die.

How, then, can a person who is not in a state of grace receive communion (which I’m sure happens quite often) considering the body and blood they receive is God Himself?

Thanks,

Chad
 
I understand that much of the reason, or logic, behind the immaculate conception of Mary lies in the fact that she had to be a pure vessel in order to carry God in her womb; with our sin we cannot physically be in the presence of God who is perfect or we would die.
In the original Scotistic arguments, ironically, they didn’t have so much to do with the argument you give above. All the way through St Thomas Aquinas, recall that there was no concensus in the West as to any logical or theological necessity to Mary’s purity when she conceives Jesus entailing that she was kept from sin herself, even in her conception. It was enough for them to consider that Mary was free from sin when she conceived the Son.
How, then, can a person who is not in a state of grace receive communion (which I’m sure happens quite often) considering the body and blood they receive is God Himself
St Paul has some strong words for those who receive communion in an unworthy manner, so obviously it’s possible to do so. I’m unclear as to the connection you’re trying to make here though. Maybe you can explain a little more?
 
How, then, can a person who is not in a state of grace receive communion (which I’m sure happens quite often) considering the body and blood they receive is God Himself?

Chad
Just as the substance doesn’t physically manifest into body and blood, it won’t physically harm you. But it will cause extreme spiritual damage to your soul, possibly the worst sin a person can do on Earth is partake in the Eucharist knowing full well they are mortally sinning.
 
The Gospels are consistent in mentioning that all of the Apostles, including Judas Iscariot, partook of the Eucharist. Judas, the only one clearly in a state of mortal sin due to his betrayal of our Lord, came to his end shortly thereafter. It would have been better for him “if he had never been born” (Matthew 26:24). Since all of this had already come to pass at the time of Paul’s conversion, it may have been the inspiration for his cautions in 1 Corinthians 11. Judas was “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord”, as he did not “examine himself” before partaking. The remainder of the Apostles were sinful men, but not “sin which leads to death” (1 John 5:16).
 
In the original Scotistic arguments, ironically, they didn’t have so much to do with the argument you give above. All the way through St Thomas Aquinas, recall that there was no concensus in the West as to any logical or theological necessity to Mary’s purity when she conceives Jesus entailing that she was kept from sin herself, even in her conception. It was enough for them to consider that Mary was free from sin when she conceived the Son.

St Paul has some strong words for those who receive communion in an unworthy manner, so obviously it’s possible to do so. I’m unclear as to the connection you’re trying to make here though. Maybe you can explain a little more?
Okay, but the doctrine of the immaculate conception is about Mary’s conception. Whether the Scotistics or Aquinas think it was necessary the Church today does, otherwise why the doctrine status?

The connection is that the Church’s doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, which all Catholics must believe, seems to be bolstered by the idea that Mary was the new ark, a pure vessel necessary to house God in her womb. How can it be, that it was necessary for Mary to be free from original sin (and sin in general) in order to house God, but people today take communion, the body and blood of God, into their often times mortally sinful bodies all the time without death? This was not so in the Old Testament as the High Priest, when he went into the Holy of Holies had to have a rope tied around him in case he had sin and died in the face of God.
 
Just as the substance doesn’t physically manifest into body and blood, it won’t physically harm you. But it will cause extreme spiritual damage to your soul, possibly the worst sin a person can do on Earth is partake in the Eucharist knowing full well they are mortally sinning.
Any support for this idea? I get what you’re saying I’m just not sure I buy it.
 
The Gospels are consistent in mentioning that all of the Apostles, including Judas Iscariot, partook of the Eucharist. Judas, the only one clearly in a state of mortal sin due to his betrayal of our Lord, came to his end shortly thereafter. It would have been better for him “if he had never been born” (Matthew 26:24). Since all of this had already come to pass at the time of Paul’s conversion, it may have been the inspiration for his cautions in 1 Corinthians 11. Judas was “guilty of the Body and Blood of the Lord”, as he did not “examine himself” before partaking. The remainder of the Apostles were sinful men, but not “sin which leads to death” (1 John 5:16).
The only problem with this is that Judas killed himself. God didn’t strike him down as would have happened in the Old Testament. Also, at the Passover meal (the institution of the Eucharist) was Christ, his Body and Blood, simultaneously the bread and wine as he was still alive? Not sure about that.
 
Any support for this idea? I get what you’re saying I’m just not sure I buy it.
1 Corinthians 11:27-30 - Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.

Actually, Paul thinks that those who partake in the Eucharist unworthily DO damage the body. I don’t know how Catholics view this, but Catholics do certainly teach that it damages the soul.

To love the Lord thy God is the greatest commandment of the all, and breaking the greatest commandment of them all in the worst way possible, by profaning the actual body and blood of Him, would seem to be heaping judgment upon oneself.
 
Okay, but the doctrine of the immaculate conception is about Mary’s conception. Whether the Scotistics or Aquinas think it was necessary the Church today does, otherwise why the doctrine status?

The connection is that the Church’s doctrine of Mary’s immaculate conception, which all Catholics must believe, seems to be bolstered by the idea that Mary was the new ark, a pure vessel necessary to house God in her womb. How can it be, that it was necessary for Mary to be free from original sin (and sin in general) in order to house God, but people today take communion, the body and blood of God, into their often times mortally sinful bodies all the time without death? This was not so in the Old Testament as the High Priest, when he went into the Holy of Holies had to have a rope tied around him in case he had sin and died in the face of God.
RCE,

Well, what I was trying to get at is that it isn’t “necessary” as you say, for her to be free from that stain of original sin.

Let me give you a little of the background of how the original and strong defense of Mary’s immaculate conception was conceived by Bl John Duns Scotus, and let’s see if it helps. First, his theology marks a bit of a turning point in thinking on the Incarnation. Prior to Scotus, most of the pondering had taken place along the lines considering what God might have done, assuming a different order of things (like if Adam hadn’t sinned).

But Scotus being the great realist he is, begins with reality, the fact of the Incarnation in history and ponders from there. Ironically, Scotus assigns almost a secondary role to Christ as Redeemer, in terms of the purpose of the Incarnation. Most fundamentally, God intends his Son to be lord and king of the universe, and only secondarily, so to speak, is Christ’s en-flesh-ment for the purpose of redeeming fallen souls.

In the Incarnation, a human nature is created, assumed by the Eternal Word, and supernaturalized by God’s grace, as Allan Wolter, OFM puts it. And in this great ennobling of all of human nature, in Christ becoming the “last Adam,” the most perfect way to do so is to include male and female. Since Christ’s own hmanity is male, God chooses the next most perfect of God’s works-the Blessed Virgin Mary as the female. And in this, both sexes are included in this act of the Incarnation. Hence, He is lord over all and redeemer of all, as well.

After Scotus has done this work, he basically gives a “more perfect” argument. The more perfect way for God to have extended this “grace of God in Christ Jesus” to male (in Christ) and female (in Mary) is to have her be free from not only actual sin once the age of conscience had been achieved (which all admitted already), but also to have her like her Son in another important respect, to even be conceived free from sin.
 
The only problem with this is that Judas killed himself. God didn’t strike him down as would have happened in the Old Testament. Also, at the Passover meal (the institution of the Eucharist) was Christ, his Body and Blood, simultaneously the bread and wine as he was still alive? Not sure about that.
Judas lost all hope of repentance. He turned from God. However, the hanging is from Matthew’s Gospel, whereas Simon Peter described it differently:

Acts 1:18-19 (New International Version) “With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.”

As well, the Eucharist was the fulfillment of the bread of life discourse form John 6. Jesus gave them spiritual food while yet in His human nature. He said “this is my Body” and “This is the cup of my Blood”. It was not a parable, and not a symbol, since He spoke plainly to the Apostles. The Catechism states that God, in all His forms, is not restrained by time or space. It all goes quite beyond human understanding.
 
I appreciate everyone’s responses but I’m still in the dark about how God can’t be in the presence of sin, else we die, yet people ingest Him without physically dying - even in a state of mortal sin.
 
I appreciate everyone’s responses but I’m still in the dark about how God can’t be in the presence of sin, else we die, yet people ingest Him without physically dying - even in a state of mortal sin.
Have you made the appropriate distinction between physical death and spiritual death? Mortal sin is spiritual death. Most who commit mortal sin and not struck down in physical death.
 
Also, consider the first sin in the garden. God told Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate the fruit - yet they lived what we consider to be a normal life span and produced offspring. Yet, spiritual death was within them, and this began the need for atonement of sins.
 
I appreciate everyone’s responses but I’m still in the dark about how God can’t be in the presence of sin, else we die, yet people ingest Him without physically dying - even in a state of mortal sin.
RCE, ok, I see what you’re getting at. Well, as to the question in the title of the OP, the answer is no. However, it’s probably to your benefit to read more in the theology of the Eucharist.There’a lot out there on the theology of the euchurist (e.g., Vonier, Ratzinger) but you can start here:
newadvent.org/summa/4080.htm
 
RCE, ok, I see what you’re getting at. Well, as to the question in the title of the OP, the answer is no. However, it’s probably to your benefit to read more in the theology of the Eucharist.There’a lot out there on the theology of the euchurist (e.g., Vonier, Ratzinger) but you can start here:
newadvent.org/summa/4080.htm
Thanks, Mag. Can you point me to a specific book/chapter that deals with this specific issue?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top