Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

… Very refreshing thread compared to many threads here, with the exception of the picture you posted. What was that about? It was like an offensive commercial in the midst of a family program. Hope that doesn’t sound angry or negative, I just would prefer to not see stuff like that … anywhere. Yeah, maybe I’m a prude, but there you have it. I have a special appreciation for the Three Graces. …

Well, the women pictured are beautiful, I’ll give you that. But their dress is no more offensive than that one would see on prime-time TV. In fact, the women in some of the situation comedies that air before most young children go to bed, wear more revealing attire!



The reasons for using them you might find interesting:

1. 
   *]In the first 8 chapters of Proverbs, Solomon depicts Wisdom as a beautiful woman that every man should desire, and that the parents of a son are urging him to mary
   *]I thought that since Solomon’s depiction of Wisdom as a woman helped me consider the virtue in a different and more complete way, personifying the other virtues might have the same effect
   *]I’m a fan of the science fiction TV series and remake of Battle Star Galactica, and I was surprised that the characters of the series personified the virtues with which I’ve associated their images
   *]I thought the whole exercise would help me–and perhaps others–think out of the box, and hopefully get closer to the truth and to God
   *]I trust that the dialog deals with a theme that children are not likely to read, as we are all adults here, and I do not wish to offend anyone
   
   If you are offended by the use of the images after this explanation, please let me know.
   
   

 

[spockrates]

Thank you Spockrate (clever name btw)

TY

Well, I must say that my faith is a simple one. My point was, Love is greater for it can draw us to the other virtues, but not necessarily the other way around, making Love more powerful. Anything done with out Love falls short.

Wisdom, wielded without Love can cause tremendous damage. Happens here on CA on a regular basis. Same is true for Justice, it may be just to simply imprison someone for their crimes; however God wants all His children to come home to heaven some day.Love is necessary to balance justice, perhaps by reaching out to these people in order to try and save their souls. In this way, we serve God. Either of these, done without Love can 'cause tremendous damage. The answer, I believe, still lies in Corinthians Chapter 13 “If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal” and "Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.For we know partially and we prophesy partially, The chapter points out the permanence of Love and, according to the USCCB "asserts love’s superiority even over the other “theological virtues”. Judgement is in here, granted Wisdom is not, however are they not intertwined? …

I agree that “Wisdom, wielded without Love, can cause tremendous damage.” I also find that Love, wielded without Wisdom, can cause tremendous damage. This was, in fact, the result in the Battle Star Galactica series, where the woman who personified Love committed murder to protect the baby she loved. But please consider this example that I’ve used previously:

A granddaughter loves her grandmother very much. She visits her grandmother in the hospital who has had a stroke and become an invalid without the use of her arms or legs. The grandmother tells her granddaughter that if she loves her, she will help her commit suicide; she will go to the medicine cabinet in the grandmother’s home and fetch a bottle of poison she has been keeping for just such an occasion, and bring it to her, and help her drink it. Life is not worth living, and the most loving thing she could do is to help her end it before she suffers more indignity and becomes a burden to others. The granddaughter does as her grandmother asks, with tears, because she loves her very much.

Now, you and I know the granddaughter commits a mortal sin by killing her grandmother, but she is unaware of this. So in this example, would you say that Love that is carried out in an unwise way can also cause tremendous damage?

 

[spockrates]

… I am really enjoying this dialogue, though. Interesting questions. In terms of God giving Solomon Wisdom … Of course God gave Solomon Jesus, he gave his only beloved son for All mankind; those living and those that had passed away before the gates of heaven were opened. God is all good and all that is good comes from God, through His son who is Wisdom, Love, etc… No? I really appreciate your comments. Interesting points all around.

Regarding Solomon, please see my recent replies to Ryan. Regarding enjoying this dialog, I am enjoying it too. It is people like you, Fidelis, as well as others, who make it so worthwhile!

 

[spockrates]

Leaving terminology aside, it seems you’re here on a very similar wavelength as I was proposing above.
The relationship Wisdom-Love is indeed so strict.

I could remain on the statement that Loving is supreme wisdom, in itself. But the concrete way we love can or cannot be guided by wisdom, and should be. .

The gift of counsel ( right judgment) and the correspondent virtue of prudence must play here their beautiful role too IMHO.

I appreciate your insights Pneuma, and enjoy thoughtfully considering them and talking with you!



Unfortunately, I’m out of time this morning. I’ll respond as soon as I’m able, and am looking forward to reading what you have to say.

 

[ryanoneil]

Agreed. However, I think Solomon, perhaps, personifies the virtue of Wisdom. The mystery might be that the God who is actual Wisdom lets some of that part of His essence rub off on us; so that we receive, in some small measure, the actual attribute of God.

“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:16)

I like to joke that my inner voice is a super model!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...images/tricia_helfer_battlestar_galactica.jpg

Wisdom personified
as a beautiful woman

That makes sense!

 

[ryanoneil]

A first born son, in ancient Hebrew thinking, can mean the first given birth, or it can be the first in prominence. The son born first was, according to tradition, expected to take the place of the patriarch of the family after his father’s death. He was given the position of authority, and the bulk of the family inheritance, and his father’s blessing. The story of Jacob and Esau bears this out. Jacob tricked Isaac’s first-born son Esau into giving him the inheritance, and tricked his father into giving him the blessing due the first-born son.

By saying Wisdom was the first of God’s creation, I think Solomon was making the point that Wisdom is the supreme virtue. Wisdom is first in prominence, rather than the first thing God created. For how could Wisdom come into being if it is an eternal (always existing) attribute of God?

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began."

–Wisdom speaking (Proverbs 8:22-23)

You might be onto something but we’d have to understand Greek and all that. It sure seems the text is saying the person identified as Wisdom did not exist at one time, even though God always had the attribute of wisdom. And all of God’s wisdom is seen in the creation of the one identified as Wisdom. This doesn’t shake me at all concerning the Trinity.

 

[djeter]

IN THE THIRTEENTH CHAPTER of Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, we find one of the most compelling and beautiful texts in the Sacred Scriptures, the so-called “Hymn To Love.” Fr. Barron writes: “Love, we hear, is the greatest and most enduring of the theological virtues (those “three things that last”), surpassing in importance both hope and faith. “If you have faith strong enough to move mountains, but have not love, you are nothing.”

To realize the significance of that particular ranking, all we have to do is consult Paul’s letter to the Romans, where the salvific centrality of faith is explained so rapturously and so unambiguously. What is more, love outstrips any of the impressive manifestations of the spirit that appeared in the Pauline communities: “If I speak with the tongues of mortals and angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.” Finally, love is greater than even the most morally heroic act: “If I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.”

Paul intuited something that has remained central to the Christian tradition for two thousand years: since love is the divine life, to live in love is to participate in God. Whereas faith opens the door to God and hope orders us to God as our final end, love is what God is. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that faith and hope will fade away in heaven, whereas love will not. Immersed in the divine being, we will need neither faith (for we will see clearly) nor hope (for we will have the good that we want), but we will need love, for love is what it means to be immersed in this way.

But what precisely is love?
…

continued here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/05/21/the-hymn-to-love/

dj

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius;6121253:

spokrates:

Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is.

You’re not sure that love is the greatest even though The Word of God says so?
If you want to be a Christian of any kind, especially a Catholic, you need to accept the Bible as The Word of God.

That I do, Ignatius! I submit to the authority of Sacred Scripture and believe that Love is greater than Faith and Hope. I also submit to Holy Writ and believe that nothing–not even Love–compares to Wisdom.
For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)
Do submit you, too?

To love God and neighbor is a matter of volition and obedience to His command. Although Wisdom is indeed “precious than rubies” it is not a matter of obedience, if one receives Wisdom, it is a gift from God.

Do you see the difference?

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
Spock -
Are you married? Do you have Children? Whom do you Love in your life?
Decribe the Love you have for your wife and children to me.
Is it an emotion?
Is it a motivation?
Is it a decision?
Is it an action?
What is your most ardent desire for those whom you Love?

Congratulations on you wonderful family.
You answered all of the questions I asked except one.

Please describe for me the Love you have for them?
You say you have “compasion” for them that makes you want to “benefit” them. What in your opinion would be of the greatest benefit to them?

Peace
James

 

[Thecapz]

Love is the greatest.

Probably the only thing Iv’e seen so far that makes sense on these boards

 

[Cinette]

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?

***GOD is LOVE!

He told us to love him with all our hearts and being and he told us to love our neighbour as Himself. If we follow these precepts we will automatically follow the other commandments because if we have love for God and our neighbour we will Honour our Mother and Father, not kill, not steal, not commit adultery etc etc etc. So yes, Love is the greatest - of that there is no doubt whatsoever!!!~

Blessings
Cinette

---

 

[CatholicGuy22]

GOD is love. All God wants us to do is to love each other. If we would all Love each other like we should there would be no need for rules from God but since we dont do that, thats why we have the 10 commandments. Love is the ultimate gift you can give anyone.

 

[spockrates]

You might be onto something but we’d have to understand Greek and all that. It sure seems the text is saying the person identified as Wisdom did not exist at one time, even though God always had the attribute of wisdom. And all of God’s wisdom is seen in the creation of the one identified as Wisdom. This doesn’t shake me at all concerning the Trinity.

Yes, Ryan, and think about what you just said: “…Wisdom did not exists at one** time**…”

Tell me, Ryan, do you think it possible that time itself was created by God?

 

[spockrates]

That makes sense!

Yes, it makes sense to me, too! So God’s grace (AKA the virtue of Love) is not the only gift we receive from Him, it seems. Wisdom is also freely given, and ours for the asking, if we truly want this virtue, too. Do you think this conclusion also wise, and probably a gift from God?

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

 

[spockrates]

Dear Spock,

not only is Catholicism very open to human wisdom and reason, as you can
See from JPII’s encyclical Fides et Ratio.

More to the point about your present question is this quotation from the Catechism

1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.110

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.111

So wisdom is seen as the first of the Gifts of the Spirit. ( see Isaiah 11:1-3).

It is remarkable that Saint Thomas teaches that wisdom is the gift that corresponds to the virtue of Love.

What is often attributed to wisdom is shared by this gift with fellow gifts such as understanding and counsel ( right judgment )

Why “gifts” ?
*. They are properly termed “gifts of the Holy Spirit” because the Holy Spirit bestows them. Therefore, they are supernatural gifts operating in a supernatural mode or manner. These are not gifts one simply invokes in times of emergency; rather, these gifts are present to the person as long as he remains in a state of sanctifying grace. As such, these gifts help a person attain sanctification and bring to perfection virtues, both the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity) and the infused virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance). The idea here is that these gifts help a person to share in the very life and nature of God, now in this life and for eternal life. In this sense, as St. Thomas Aquinas asserted, they are in the fullest sense “habits,” from the Latin habitus, signifying their indwelling presence and operation

…Pope St. Gregory the Great… tried to capture the spiritual dynamic which the Holy Spirit imparts to the soul through these gifts: “Through the fear of the Lord, we rise to piety, from piety then to knowledge, from knowledge we derive strength, from strength counsel, with counsel we move towards understanding, and with intelligence towards wisdom and thus, by the sevenfold grace of the Spirit, there opens to us at the end of the ascent the entrance to the life of Heaven” (Homiliae in Hiezechihelem Prophetam, II *7,7).

from
www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0451.html

Yes, that is helpful, Pneuma!



It seems then that there is a wisdom that is not a supernatural gift of God–though perhaps a natural gift given to us by virtue of our genetics and environment. There is also a Wisdom that is a supernatural gift of God–that which we call the wisdom of God, and the mind of Christ, and perhaps several other thought-provoking and wonderful titles. She is the virtue of whom Solomon speaks, and the one who we are comparing with Love.

Likewise, there is a love that is not supernatural, but a natural affection that a mother has for her child, a husband has for his wife, friends have for one another, and the like. These are not exactly the same as the Love of God, which causes us to “love your enemies” as Christ compels us. To love the unloving, even those who hate us is unnatural, but not ignoble, it is a supernatural Love of the highest kind, and most like the Love of God, as Jesus taught us:

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

(John 3:16)

As a parent, I cannot imagine sacrificing my own son for those who have no love for me in hope that they might love me. Such a love is inhuman, but (thanks be to God) just the kind of Love God has for us and offers to us as an absolutely free gift, just like Wisdom.

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

And I’m asking that we consider which virtue God gives us is greatest, not out of a lack of gratitude for either, but out of a desire to know each gift better and, in so knowing, appreciate them all the more! And what I think we know, at this point, is that Love and Wisdom are both gifts of God and supernatural virtues. Do you agree with me?

 

[karoleck]

One would be very wise to ask for the gift of Wisdom–I remember when God gave me the grace to revert to the Catholic Faith at the age of 22years.I started to read all of the Bible from the beginning,I remember when I came first to this passage,I stopped reading and asked for the gift of Wisdom.But when I re-learnt my Catholic Faith beliefs I read about God The Holy Spirit,He is The Third Person of The Holy Trinity–the result of the love between God The Father and Jesus(the God made man)-the Second Person of this Trinitarian Unity.This love became LOVE-the Third Person–so the Holy Spirit IS LOVE.I also learnt that at Baptism I received graces and original sin was removed.At the Sacrament of Confirmation I received The Holy Spirits’ gifts(LOVE) they are Wisdom. Understanding,Counsel,Knowledge,Fortitude,Piety and Fear(reverence) of The Lord. So I would maintain that Love is the greatest because It refers to God the Holy Spirit(God The Holy Ghost in my youth) but within that Love is Wisdom!!!
Perhaps it is like St Augustine trying to understand for months The Trinity–you know the story–he saw a little boy on the beach bucketting the sea into a hole that he dug,St.Augustine said “What are you doing”?I am going to put all the sea into this hole-the proud boy replied!St.Augustine smiled and said “you will never be able to do that"and the boy retorted and"you will never be able to understand The Holy Trinity” and the boy "Jesus"vanished!! So wake me up when you have solved this question!!good luck!!
Post me with the answer Theopholus!

 

[spockrates]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma07
… It seems that prudence as “charioteer of virtues” , and as “image and likeness of the Providence of God” ( the term prudentia comes from Providentia), Providence being ultimately His loving care, has a particularly strict relationship with Love.

Interesting that Counsel, so near to Wisdom, is the gift which is considered to correspond to the virtue of Prudence.

The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David. They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

(Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1831)

Please let me ask you this, Pneuma07: Would you say it is unwise for someone to deliberately fail to do the following?

• seek understanding of the truth
• follow wise consel
• have fortitude
• seek knowledge of the truth
• seek piety
• fear the Lord

 

[spockrates]

Leaving terminology aside, it seems you’re here on a very similar wavelength as I was proposing above.
The relationship Wisdom-Love is indeed so strict.

I could remain on the statement that Loving is supreme wisdom, in itself. But the concrete way we love can or cannot be guided by wisdom, and should be. .

The gift of counsel ( right judgment) and the correspondent virtue of prudence must play here their beautiful role too IMHO.

Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another …

(Romans 12:10)

But is Love really supreme Wisdom? or is the truth, instead, that Wisdom makes supreme Love possible? Consider this:

Wisdom, it seems to me, has the following attributes that give her such beauty that Solomon found her to be the supreme virtue. She is a:

• motivator, for she strongly motivates us to seek the truth via reason
• determinater, for the helps us determine what is true and what is false, what is good and what is evil, what is righteous and what is unrighteous, and what is like God and what is ungodly.
• decider, for she stirs us to decide to live according to the truth she reveals to us
• activator, for once deciding to live according to truth, she keeps reminding us until we get the gumption to get up and do what we know is right

Now compare this with Love; she too has several similar qualities of beauty. For she is an or a:

• emoter, for no greater feeling of emotion is there than the love of Christ shed abroad in our hearts
• motivator, for she strongly motivates us to seek to love others as Christ first loved us
• decider, for she stirs us to decide to love according to fulfill the desire she places in our hearts
• activator, for once once deciding to act according to our desire to love, she keeps growing this desire in us until we get the gumption to get up and love as we know we should

But notice what Wisdom is not: Can you or I say she is an emoter? Is it possible to have a emotion of wisdom or to say one feels wise for someone? No, I don’t think so. Wise is not a feeling, but a way of rationally thinking. Therefore, Spock was correct in saying that the wise man can be one who feels no emotion. Reason and logic is what makes Wisdom beautiful, not feeling, for she has none to give us. Sadness, happiness, anger, affection, despair, hopefulness, are not in her, for she feels nothing, but only thinks rationally and calmly reveals the truth to us.

Moreover, notice what Love is not: Can you or I say love is a determiner of truth? Is it possible to say that the feeling of love, rather than sound reason, shows us what the truth really is? Or is it rather true that our feelings sometimes deceive us, and that what feels right is not always the right thing to do? Gandhi was a great example of love, yet we might say he was unwise to embrace Hinduism and reject the truth that Jesus is the one true God. So I don’t think Love is the virtue that helps us sort the truth from the lies, though she does motivate us to do what is right not only because it is right, but because it is loving and most like God, gave His one and only Son out of sacrificial love for us.

So Wisdom reveals this truth to me that I cannot ignore, for as Mother Teresa once said,

Once you see truth, you can’t unsee it!

And the truth I cannot unsee is this:

• All Love has, as a quality, emotion. For all Love has some compassion and affection for those loved.
• All Wisdom has no emotion. For Wisdom determines what is truth, but she is in no way a feeling.
• **Therefore, it is impossible that supreme Love *is ***Wisdom. But it is indeed true that it is wise to love supremely.

Are you seeing that you cannot unsee this truth, too, Pneuma?



http://scifiwire.com/assets_c/2009/05/Battlestar_Park_Helfer-thumb-550x304-17988.jpg

How can the emotion of Love be emotionless Wisdom?

 

[spockrates]

I never doubted that that Love and knowledge-wisdom have a somehow “common destiny”. This is clear to the secular thought.

Since we’re here examining christian Love and Christian wisdom, I’d see this splendid connection as something different from a complete symmetry.

To get nearer to God we have to act out of Love and/or in Love, and through wisdom, or with wisdom. Is that OK for you ?

Now, I am not sure we can reverse that, saying: we must act out of wisdom through Love. Isn’t Love the source and wisdom the support or guide received by the Holy Spirit ?

We could say then we should act out of the virtue ( of Love) through the gift ( of Wisdom) of the Holy Spirit.

If so, we can confidently accept that Love is the greatest virtue, whose appropriate support or guide towards perfection is the gift of wisdom. Which is wisdom’s greatness.
Am I on to something ?

On top of that we should probably not focus exclusively, when speaking about Love, on the Love towards our neighbour.
We should put into the picture the Love towards God.

In Christ
P7

Yes, that would be true if Wisdom were not a virtue, and merely a gift, and Love were not a gift, but merely a virtue. Isn’t the truth evident, now that Wisdom is a gift and a virtue, and Love is a virtue and a gift? Or has Wisdom not yet convinced you?



Regarding Loving God, it is possible that the granddaughter in our example believed that ending the suffering of her grandmother was what God wanted her to do, and so was an act of loving God. Of course, she would be mistaken, but it was not for lack of Love that she failed to see the truth, but for lack of Wisdom.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Isn’t it quite possible to love unwisely?

 

[spockrates]

Congratulations on you wonderful family.
You answered all of the questions I asked except one.

Please describe for me the Love you have for them?
You say you have “compasion” for them that makes you want to “benefit” them. What in your opinion would be of the greatest benefit to them?

Peace
James

The greatest benefit for them would be for me to know how to best benefit them. Tell me, James, what virtue would show me the truth about how to best benefit them? The emotion of Love, or the unemotional, but rational, Wisdom?