Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[Fidelis_Unus]

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:13)

Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?

John: 34-35 “I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

God is love and being instruments of God’s love draws others nearer to Him, which allows them to find faith and hope. In my experience, without Love, many cannot feel safe enough to experience the other two.

If you read the full Chapter, rather than pulling the verse out, I find it perfectly self-explanatory. I’m more curious as to why you might think he is wrong?

 

[spockrates]

John: 34-35 “I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love one another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

God is love and being instruments of God’s love draws others nearer to Him, which allows them to find faith and hope. In my experience, without Love, many cannot feel safe enough to experience the other two.

If you read the full Chapter, rather than pulling the verse out, I find it perfectly self-explanatory. I’m more curious as to why you might think he is wrong?

Not wondering why he is wrong, but why he is right, Fidelis. And welcome to the dialog!

Two reasons we found why St. Paul is right are these:

1. 
   *]Love is an attribute of God, but Faith and Hope might not be
   *]Love is immortal, for it survives the grave, but certainly Hope and possibly Faith are merely mortal
   
   What we are wondering, now, is whether Love is greater than all other virtues. Two contenders for this title are Wisdom and Justice. Both of these are apparently attributes of God and survive the grave in us. But how do you think these sister virtues compare to Love?

 

[spockrates]

http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/battlestar-galactica_l.jpg

The three immortal virtues
(left to right): Wisdom, Justice and Love

Socrates asked:

How can a man understand the name of anything, when he does not know what the thing is?

(Theaetetus, 147)

And my desire is to understand what is meant when I speak the words Wisdom, or Justice, or Love. For how will I know when I am truly wise, or just, or loving in a way that pleases God if I don’t understand what these virtues are?

So I want to propose definitions of each of these three virtues.

Wisdom = that virtue, given by God, by which we discern what is true and righteous, and act according to what is discerned to be true and righteous

Justice = that virtue, given by God, by which we discern what is equitable, and act according to what is equitable

**Love **= that virtue, given by God, by which we have emotions of good will toward others, and act according to those feelings

Anyone who will, please let me know what you think of these definitions. Is the first wise about Wisdom? Does the second do justice to Justice? Do you feel the third shows a proper appreciation for Love?

 

[Marie5890]

Well, Tomas does not appear to doubt after he saw and touched the resurrected Jesus. But you have not answered my question: Doesn’t their deserting Him show they were unsure they could trust Him? And doesn’t their willingness to suffer and die for Him after His resurrection show they were sure they could trust Him?

If you agree, then I suppose we have come to the conclusion that faith is *trust *(or being sure of that for which we hope and certain of the God we do not at the moment see).

I think it’s unwise to assume that their doubt has to do with their lacking in trust of Him. It could have more to do with how they felt about themselves.

Do I think trust and faith are the same thing?
No. trust is based on experience and human knowledge.
Faith doesnt need experience and human knowledge

So I disagree with the idea that trust and faith are the same thing.
They are linked, but are still different.

 

[spockrates]

I think it’s unwise to assume that their doubt has to do with their lacking in trust of Him. It could have more to do with how they felt about themselves.

Good point, Marie!

Do I think trust and faith are the same thing?
No. trust is based on experience and human knowledge.
Faith doesnt need experience and human knowledge

So I disagree with the idea that trust and faith are the same thing.
They are linked, but are still different.

Well, we agree that the writer of the book of Hebrews indicates that Faith is being *sure *and being certain.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

(Hebrews 11:1)

But if such certainty is *not *based on knowledge or experience, then on what is it based? Feelings?

 

[JRKH]

When you say, “Not all Wisdom is Love and not all Love is Wisdom,” I gather you mean that *some *Wisdom *is *Love and some Love is Wisdom. I suppose that if what you say is true, it will not be too difficult for me to learn why. Then, perhaps, I will find that what I thought was Wisdom was actually just another face of Love, and I might also find that what I though were other virtues were also identical to Love!

Now, I know what it is you say is true, but how do learn why it’s true? I don’t want to make the mistake that Socrates cautions me not to make:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus, 237)

Thus, I don’t want to be ignorance of Love’s essential nature. So I want to begin by considering the basics of what Love is. Would you say, James, that Love is all, or some, of these?

• an emotion
• a motivation
• a decision
• an action

Spock -
Are you married? Do you have Children? Whom do you Love in your life?
Decribe the Love you have for your wife and children to me.
Is it an emotion?
Is it a motivation?
Is it a decision?
Is it an action?
What is your most ardent desire for those whom you Love?

Peace
James

 

[ryanoneil]

However, I don’t think that’s what you really meant, for that sounds absurd! You must have instead been using a figure of speech (as Jesus Himself often did) when you said “Jesus is Wisdom.” What you must have meant by these words is that Jesus is perfectly and consistently and completely wise. This was your meaning Ryan; wasn’t it?

I don’t know really. I jumped into this conversation and I’m learning as I go. I think He personifies the attribute and is not the impersonal attribute itself.

It seems the Logos (Jesus before he took flesh) personifies wisdom and is not the attribute itself. You will have to help me with the logic. I think L=W, but don’t think that L=w. In other words, the Logos equals the personification which is Wisdom but does not equal the attribute.

 

[ryanoneil]

But to say that Jesus is Wisdom is to say that God gave Solomon Jesus, I think.

For if

v = the virtue God gave to Solomon

and

w = God’s wisdom

and

j = Jesus Christ

And if

v = w

and

j = w

then it is also true that

v = j

The upshot is that if what you say is true, then we must conclude that the virtue God gave to Solomon is Jesus. It’s simple logic.

Again, you’ll have to help me with the logic. I’m thinking something like this.

w= the impersonal attribute of wisdom

W= the personification of the attribute

Solomon is given wisdom and becomes the personification of it. Except he doesn’t come anywhere close to equaling God. In other words, Solomon doesn’t equal W because W is the perfect wisdom of God and is infact God. Solomon is a prefigurement of Jesus (both are God’s son) except Jesus will equal W. Does that make sense?

 

[ryanoneil]

On the contrary, I believe the words “and without him nothing came to be” are an extremely good answer! Nothing that came to be (or that was created) did so without Him already being (or existing). That is, the Son of God was not created, but was Himself the uncreated creator.

Therefore, it seems unlikely the words of Solomon about Wisdom being the first work of God the Father apply to the person of the Son of God. Though these wise words of the wise king likely do apply to the work of the Son of God.

I agree the Logos was not created, so why does the second part seem unlikely? Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation. How does this differ from being the first work of God? I don’t know. Solomon, in all his wisdom, could not possible understand the idea of Trinity. It hadn’t been revealed, so he could only hint at it.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Thank you Spockrate (clever name btw)

Not wondering why he is wrong, but why he is right, Fidelis. And welcome to the dialog!

Two reasons we found why St. Paul is right are these:

1. 
   *]Love is an attribute of God, but Faith and Hope might not be
   *]Love is immortal, for it survives the grave, but certainly Hope and possibly Faith are merely mortal
   
   What we are wondering, now, is whether Love is greater than all other virtues. Two contenders for this title are Wisdom and Justice. Both of these are apparently attributes of God and survive the grave in us. But how do you think these sister virtues compare to Love?

1. 
   Well, I must say that my faith is a simple one. My point was, Love is greater for it can draw us to the other virtues, but not necessarily the other way around, making Love more powerful. Anything done with out Love falls short.
   
   Wisdom, wielded without Love can 'cause tremendous damage. Happens here on CA on a regular basis. Same is true for Justice, it may be just to simply imprison someone for their crimes; however God wants all His children to come home to heaven some day.Love is necessary to balance justice, perhaps by reaching out to these people in order to try and save their souls. In this way, we serve God. Either of these, done without Love can 'cause tremendous damage. The answer, I believe, still lies in Corinthians Chapter 13 “If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal” and "Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.For we know partially and we prophesy partially, The chapter points out the permanence of Love and, according to the USCCB "asserts love’s superiority even over the other “theological virtues”. Judgement is in here, granted Wisdom is not, however are they not intertwined?
   
   Very refreshing thread compared to many threads here, with the exception of the picture you posted. What was that about? It was like an offensive commercial in the midst of a family program. Hope that doesn’t sound angry or negative, I just would prefer to not see stuff like that … anywhere. Yeah, maybe I’m a prude, but there you have it. I have a special appreciation for the Three Graces.
   
   I am really enjoying this dialogue, though. Interesting questions. In terms of God giving Solomon Wisdom … Of course God gave Solomon Jesus, he gave his only beloved son for All mankind; those living and those that had passed away before the gates of heaven were opened. God is all good and all that is good comes from God, through His son who is Wisdom, Love, etc… No?
   
   I really appreciate your comments. Interesting points all around.

 

[pneuma07]

Yes, Pneuma, I agree there is a difference between Wisdom (of the world) that causes someone to doubt the truth and Wisdom (from God) that causes someone to understand the truth about God, Christ, morality and the Church.



The former, Socrates said, was a false, and no Wisdom at all. The true philosopher abhors the former, and loves the latter, for the latter is an attribute of God Himself.

Wherefore, we ought to fly away from earth to heaven as quickly as we can; and to fly away means to become like God, as far as this is possible; and to become like him, means to become holy, just and wise. But O, my friend, you cannot easily convince mankind that they should pursue virtues or avoid vice, not merely in order that a man may seem to be good, which is the reason given by the world.

(Theaetetus, 176)

And there is, it seems, a difference between Wisdom (from God) that causes us to understand the truth and know why it is true, and Faith (from God) that causes us to put our trust in the truth. It seems to me (and perhaps it seems to you, too) that such godly Wisdom will help to increase one’s Faith, and even one’s Love.

And I don’t think Saint Paul disagrees, for he writes of this Wisdom in the very passage you mention:

I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, **the manifold wisdom of God should be made known **to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

(Ephesians 3:7-12)

And since we are to pray that His will be done on earth, as it is in heaven, I’d say that God wants it to be true for me and you that “the manifold wisdom of God should be made known” to us. For is not receiving godly Wisdom something that is “according to His eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord”?

But I’m curious why you seem at odds with the Wisdom of God. Perhaps it is something about the Catholicism I’m longing to embrace that I don’t yet understand. Is Wisdom thought a merely human virtue by the Catholic Church, and less divine than Faith, Hope and Love? Do you think God in no way helps to develop the strength of this virtue in you and me, as he does the other three?

Dear Spock,

not only is Catholicism very open to human wisdom and reason, as you can
See from JPII’s encyclical Fides et Ratio.

More to the point about your present question is this quotation from the Catechism

*1830 The moral life of Christians is sustained by the gifts of the Holy Spirit. These are permanent dispositions which make man docile in following the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

1831 The seven gifts of the Holy Spirit are wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord. They belong in their fullness to Christ, Son of David.109 They complete and perfect the virtues of those who receive them. They make the faithful docile in readily obeying divine inspirations.

Let your good spirit lead me on a level path.110

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God . . . If children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ.111 *

So wisdom is seen as the first of the Gifts of the Spirit. ( see Isaiah 11:1-3).

It is remarkable that Saint Thomas teaches that wisdom is the gift that corresponds to the virtue of Love.

What is often attributed to wisdom is shared by this gift with fellow gifts such as understanding and counsel ( right judgment )

Why “gifts” ?
*. They are properly termed “gifts of the Holy Spirit” because the Holy Spirit bestows them. Therefore, they are supernatural gifts operating in a supernatural mode or manner. These are not gifts one simply invokes in times of emergency; rather, these gifts are present to the person as long as he remains in a state of sanctifying grace. As such, these gifts help a person attain sanctification and bring to perfection virtues, both the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity) and the infused virtues (prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance). The idea here is that these gifts help a person to share in the very life and nature of God, now in this life and for eternal life. In this sense, as St. Thomas Aquinas asserted, they are in the fullest sense “habits,” from the Latin habitus, signifying their indwelling presence and operation

…Pope St. Gregory the Great… tried to capture the spiritual dynamic which the Holy Spirit imparts to the soul through these gifts: “Through the fear of the Lord, we rise to piety, from piety then to knowledge, from knowledge we derive strength, from strength counsel, with counsel we move towards understanding, and with intelligence towards wisdom and thus, by the sevenfold grace of the Spirit, there opens to us at the end of the ascent the entrance to the life of Heaven” (Homiliae in Hiezechihelem Prophetam, II *7,7).

from
www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0451.html

 

[pneuma07]

Interesting. I admire your desire to not inadvertently slander God. But I wonder if it is possible to know Christ without trying to understand the virtues (or attributes) of God. Wouldn’t considering God’s virtues help you and me to get to know Him better?

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

(Philippians 3:10-11)

Moreover, I wonder how it is possible to obey the Apostle’s command without trying to first become more wise about who God is and how He rolls:

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-3)

But I suppose wondering is how I roll!

I wonder whether the relation gift – virtue cannot help us here. We saw that these gifts help a person to share in the very life and nature of God, which very appropriately seems to fit with Ephesians 1-3.

 

[pneuma07]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma07
… It seems that prudence as “charioteer of virtues” , and as “image and likeness of the Providence of God” ( the term prudentia comes from Providentia), Providence being ultimately His loving care, has a particularly strict relationship with Love.

Agreed!

Interesting that Counsel, so near to Wisdom, is the gift which is considered to correspond to the virtue of Prudence.

 

[pneuma07]

Yes, her love was sincere, yet sincerely wrong. For it resulted in a great and mortal sin of murder, on her part, and suicide on the part of her grandmother! It seems, then, that you and I find ourselves in the same boat with Socrates:

I have long been wondering at my own wisdom, finding it beyond belief, and I think that I ought to stop and ask myself, “What am I saying?” For, there is nothing worse than self-deception, where the deceiver is always at home and always with you. It is quite terrible, and therefore I ought often to retrace my steps and endeavor to “look fore and aft” in the words of aforesaid Homer.

(Cratylus, 428)

We should be wondering at our own wisdom and each stop and ask ourselves, “What am I saying?” For we were, just a few posts ago, saying that Love is wise. It seems, now, that we were self-deceived. While it is true that Wisdom guides Love to make her actions more wise, Love herself has no wisdom of her own. Wisdom, on the other hand, might be wise in her actions, but her deeds are useless in God’s eyes if done out of a selfish motive, rather than out of love. Love needs her sister virtue just as much as her sister needs her. Apart from one another, they can do no consistently good thing. Don’t you think?

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...estar-galactica-1140282_1441_1920-580x772.jpg

Love and Wisdom need one another?

Leaving terminology aside, it seems you’re here on a very similar wavelength as I was proposing above.
The relationship Wisdom-Love is indeed so strict.

I could remain on the statement that Loving is supreme wisdom, in itself. But the concrete way we love can or cannot be guided by wisdom, and should be. .

The gift of counsel ( right judgment) and the correspondent virtue of prudence must play here their beautiful role too IMHO.

 

[pneuma07]

But surely he meant, “Love and do what you believe is God’s will,” didn’t he?

Let’s say the granddaughter loved God immensely, but still did not know any better. Let’s say she genuinely thought the most loving thing she could do is help her grandmother kill herself. What she lacked was *not *love, but the wisdom to know how to express it the way God desires. It is ignorance, not enmity, that caused such a great and mortal sin.

So at this point in our thinking this through, I’d say that an act of Love that is unwise (and against the will of God) is perhaps as tragic as an act of Wisdom that is unloving (which is also against the will of God). Wouldn’t you say so, too, Pneuma?

I never doubted that that Love and knowledge-wisdom have a somehow “common destiny”. This is clear to the secular thought.

Since we’re here examining christian Love and Christian wisdom, I’d see this splendid connection as something different from a complete symmetry.

To get nearer to God we have to act out of Love and/or in Love, and through wisdom, or with wisdom. Is that OK for you ?

Now, I am not sure we can reverse that, saying: we must act out of wisdom through Love. Isn’t Love the source and wisdom the support or guide received by the Holy Spirit ?

We could say then we should act out of the virtue ( of Love) through the gift ( of Wisdom) of the Holy Spirit.

If so, we can confidently accept that Love is the greatest virtue, whose appropriate support or guide towards perfection is the gift of wisdom. Which is wisdom’s greatness.
Am I on to something ?

On top of that we should probably not focus exclusively, when speaking about Love, on the Love towards our neighbour.
We should put into the picture the Love towards God.

In Christ
P7

 

[pneuma07]

At this point I’d like to post an excerpt from *Deus Caritas est *by B16,

*God does not demand of us a feeling which we ourselves are incapable of producing. He loves us, he makes us see and experience his love, and since he has “loved us first”, love can also blossom as a response within us.

In the gradual unfolding of this encounter, it is clearly revealed that love is not merely a sentiment. Sentiments come and go. A sentiment can be a marvellous first spark, but it is not the fullness of love. Earlier we spoke of the process of purification and maturation by which eros comes fully into its own, becomes love in the full meaning of the word. It is characteristic of mature love that it calls into play all man’s potentialities; it engages the whole man, so to speak. Contact with the visible manifestations of God’s love can awaken within us a feeling of joy born of the experience of being loved. But this encounter also engages our will and our intellect. Acknowledgment of the living God is one path towards love, and the “yes” of our will to his will unites our intellect, will and sentiments in the all- embracing act of love.

But this process is always open-ended; love is never “finished” and complete; throughout life, it changes and matures, and thus remains faithful to itself. Idem velle atque idem nolle [9]—to want the same thing, and to reject the same thing—was recognized by antiquity as the authentic content of love: the one becomes similar to the other, and this leads to a community of will and thought.
The love-story between God and man consists in the very fact that this communion of will increases in a communion of thought and sentiment, and thus our will and God’s will increasingly coincide: God’s will is no longer for me an alien will, something imposed on me from without by the commandments, but it is now my own will, based on the realization that God is in fact more deeply present to me than I am to myself.[10]

Then self- abandonment to God increases and God becomes our joy (cf. Ps 73 [72]:23-28).*

Isn’t that insightful and beautiful ?

 

[spockrates]

Spock -
Are you married? Do you have Children? Whom do you Love in your life?
Decribe the Love you have for your wife and children to me.
Is it an emotion?
Is it a motivation?
Is it a decision?
Is it an action?
What is your most ardent desire for those whom you Love?

Peace
James

Yes, for 18 years now
Yes, two sons–one in high school and one in middle school
I try to love everyone who will accept my love
Yes, I feel compassion for them
Yes, this feeling motivates me to want to benefit them
Yes, I make a conscious decision to do what I can to benefit them
Yes, I carry out that decision by actually doing what I can to benefit them

 

[spockrates]

I don’t know really. I jumped into this conversation and I’m learning as I go. I think He personifies the attribute and is not the impersonal attribute itself.

It seems the Logos (Jesus before he took flesh) personifies wisdom and is not the attribute itself. You will have to help me with the logic. I think L=W, but don’t think that L=w. In other words, the Logos equals the personification which is Wisdom but does not equal the attribute.

Yes, I’m no professional theologian, myself. I’m making it up as I go along, and changing my mind time after time. Although, perhaps it does not show, because I’m asking questions rather than answering them.



That being said, I wonder if you are correct even though I cannot yet fathom why. I mean, it seems that Sacred Scripture suggests that we supernaturally receive God’s virtue of Love if we pray earnestly for it. So I wonder if, somehow, we supernaturally receive God’s virtue of Wisdom if we pray earnestly for it. This appears to be what James is getting at:

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind.

(James 1:5-6)

What you say about the Logos stirs me to joy, and hope, and wonder. For the idea of the Logos, or the all-knowing mind of God, was proposed by Socrates more than 400 years prior to the Logos appearing in the flesh. Socrates pretty much proved that all of the Greek gods were not perfectly wise, for these deities often disputed among themselves about what was right and wrong and could never agree. Therefore, he concluded, there must be one source of all wisdom. This Wisdom, he said, was his God, and should be the God of all people who want to be wise. And the true philosopher is a worshiper of this God of gods, for the word philosopher literally means, lover of Wisdom.

Wise I may not call them; for that is a great title which belongs to God alone. Lovers of Wisdom, or philosophers, is their modest and befitting title.

(Phaedrus)

To explore such ideas of the nature of God Himself, whom we should imitate, is a humbling and holy experience. We are on virtual holy ground, I think, and should thank God for any truth He is gracious to give so undeservedly to us.

 

[spockrates]

Again, you’ll have to help me with the logic. I’m thinking something like this.

w= the impersonal attribute of wisdom

W= the personification of the attribute

Solomon is given wisdom and becomes the personification of it. Except he doesn’t come anywhere close to equaling God. In other words, Solomon doesn’t equal W because W is the perfect wisdom of God and is infact God. Solomon is a prefigurement of Jesus (both are God’s son) except Jesus will equal W. Does that make sense?

Agreed. However, I think Solomon, perhaps, personifies the virtue of Wisdom. The mystery might be that the God who is actual Wisdom lets some of that part of His essence rub off on us; so that we receive, in some small measure, the actual attribute of God.

“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

(1 Corinthians 2:16)

I like to joke that my inner voice is a super model!



Wisdom personified
as a beautiful woman

 

[spockrates]

I agree the Logos was not created, so why does the second part seem unlikely? Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation. How does this differ from being the first work of God? I don’t know. Solomon, in all his wisdom, could not possible understand the idea of Trinity. It hadn’t been revealed, so he could only hint at it.

A first born son, in ancient Hebrew thinking, can mean the first given birth, or it can be the first in prominence. The son born first was, according to tradition, expected to take the place of the patriarch of the family after his father’s death. He was given the position of authority, and the bulk of the family inheritance, and his father’s blessing. The story of Jacob and Esau bears this out. Jacob tricked Isaac’s first-born son Esau into giving him the inheritance, and tricked his father into giving him the blessing due the first-born son.

By saying Wisdom was the first of God’s creation, I think Solomon was making the point that Wisdom is the supreme virtue. Wisdom is first in prominence, rather than the first thing God created. For how could Wisdom come into being if it is an eternal (always existing) attribute of God?

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began."

–Wisdom speaking (Proverbs 8:22-23)