Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[thecross]

The unconditional love of Jesus for His Father, and for us led Him to His death on the Cross
Our Fathers love for us led to His sending His only begotten. He taught us the corporal and spiritual works of mercy which are founded on unconditional love
I think its the greatest
Have a great new year!!!

 

[spockrates]

Thank you for the link to Plato… Good stuff… I always had such an interest
in Philosophy but kind of lacked what it took to grasp most of what they
were saying, but then it might have been their way of presenting it.

I’m not much of a philosopher myself, at least, I’m not too wise. For I’m always showing my ignorance by asking so many questions! But then, I suppose there is hope for me, yet, for Socrates did the same.

I checked out a basic one book on the whole progressive development
of thought and though it was short in details… there were some wonderful
points made…

There was this one man and I am thinking “Locke” and he said…

“The only truths we learn of are those we discover” Meaning to me
that we encounter certain truths but there might be other truths
that we have not encountered but yet are truths just the same.

Sounds like the words of a wise man, to me! At least, my experience of late is that I’ve discovered a good deal of truth here at CAF.

So why is that. Does God lead us to the truths we need to encounter,
as he knows if one birds falls from the tree he knows what we are
doing and what truths we need to know… Or do we have some say
as to what truths we encounter… Does God lead us by inclination
and we have the choice to “not” go in that direction and in doing
so do we lose out on a truth we were to know?..

Great question! Two words of Wisdom come to mind:

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

(John 8:32)

“If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.”

(John 15:10-12)

It seems to me that if knowing some truth sets us free to obey God’s command to love one another as Christ loved us, then learning more truth will set us free to love one another even more. And it is Wisdom, not Love, that discerns the truth to us about how to best love; as Socrates asked:

Is not knowing growing wiser about that which you learn? And by Wisdom the wise are wise?

(Theaetetus)

In fact, Theatetus is one of the easier Socratic dialogs to understand, and it’s topic–trying to define what knowledge is–is certainly applicable to our discussion.

classics.mit.edu/Plato/theatu.html

Now having step across my lurking line. I shall step back across
and go to that web sight of Plato, and “read”…

Again thanks for the link…

URW, Monte!

 

[spockrates]

The unconditional love of Jesus for His Father, and for us led Him to His death on the Cross
Our Fathers love for us led to His sending His only begotten. He taught us the corporal and spiritual works of mercy which are founded on unconditional love
I think its the greatest
Have a great new year!!!

Are you going to join us on this trek, Cross? Or are you just waving goodbye as you pass us at a crossroad?

 

[spockrates]

Thank you. I find this thread very interesting and enjoy
my lurking. I have found some of the comments
here very stimulating and that has caused
me to do some serious thinking… which isn’t easy
with a limited mind… such as mine… smile.

I see you’ve found the joy, too!



Keep striving to know Him more.

I want to know Christ … .

(Philippians 3:10)

 

[spockrates]

No, what I am saying is that we should look to God for Wisdom, and He will deliver it to us in whatever manner He deems appropriate.

Sometimes we look to others for whatever answers we are looking for, rather than looking to Him and letting Him decided the manner in which he wants to answer.

Agreed, we should look to God. So please tell me, Marie: What virtue is it that shows us whether the knowledge we receive is from God, or from people? What virtue shows us what the truth is?

 

[spockrates]

Wasnt being coy, Spockrates. Im sincere.

What do I think the difference is? I think knowledge and wisdom are more closely related and have more to do with excersizing right action.

Faith I dont think requires either wisdom or even knowledge but those certainly help in increasing faith.

When Christ called the Aposltes, Im of the belief they followed Him because of their faith, not because of their wisdom or even their knowledge. We know well enough He spent alot of time instructing them during His ministry and after.

But it was their faith that kept them there, and it was their faith that failed them at the time of the Crucifixion and it was their faith that brought them back.

By the time of the Crucifixion they had witnessed many miracles. Infact Peter, James, and John were even present at the Transfiguration. But that did prevent them from abandoning Him in the end.

In sure you are referring to Godly Wisdom. And I believe that can be given us. But I dont think it’s given to us prior to us having sufficient Faith.

Fruits come after sufficient faith. Not sufficient wisdom.

Would you say, Marie, that the Apostles followed Jesus when He told them to follow Him because they trusted Him and God enough to follow Him to an unknown end? Do you think they deserted Him when He was arrested because they did not trust Him or God enough to follow Him to a certain crucifixion?

 

[Marie5890]

Would you say, Marie, that the Apostles followed Jesus when He told them to follow Him because they trusted Him and God enough to follow Him to an unknown end? Do you think they deserted Him when He was arrested because they did not trust Him or God enough to follow Him to a certain crucifixion?

That is a very good question. And I expect each answer would be different for each of them based on what their individual expectations, characters, weakness, and temperments were.

We really dont know much about these men do we? Yet, we know, Christ called them specifically to be His Apostles. With a few exceptions, some are only mentioned by name with little else ever said. Know doubt they each had unique qualities.

I understand there are traditions that follow them.

It will be interesting to ask them what it was like. What they were thinking, what they were feeling.

To know what their individual spiritual journeys were like.

Bet it will be fascinating.

 

[ryanoneil]

Well, Ryan, a Jehovah’s Witness once used the same argument with me, but with a different aim. She quoted this passage:

"The LORD brought me [Wisdom] forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

(Proverbs 8:22-26)

She claimed that, since Wisdom is Jesus, then he was created by Jehovah God, and not the uncreated Jehovah God. My response to her was that Wisdom is called a woman, not a man, so how could the Son of God be a woman?

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

(Proverbs 8:1)

So, I suppose, Ryan, I should ask you the same question.

The use of feminine nouns and language for a male is not an issue. It is a matter of grammer and how gender is applied to words. This is not a teaching that Wisdom is female. It is a matter of grammer. The noun for wisdom in Hebrew and Greek is in the feminine gender, and it demands feminine pronouns. It’s no different than when other men are given titles that have a feminine gender. One example is: Naphtali us called “a hind” in Gen 49:21 which is a female deer and he is metaphorically represented as a “she,” that produces fawns!

 

[JRKH]

a Further analogy for Love and Wisdom.

Picture a classroom where the teacher is Love.
As the Children come in The teacher checks each one for dress, have they got their books etc., correcting each where they need it
As the Children sit attentively the teacher gives them lessons. Filling them, not just with facts, but also with right ways to interpret and apply those facts.
She then quizes the Children on how well they understand what she ahs taught them.
Those who pass the quiz can then leave, properly prepared to make wise choices.
Those who do not pass the quiz are held back for more instruction.

The Classroom is our brain.
The Children are sensory (name removed by moderator)uts and our thoughts relating to that (name removed by moderator)ut. These are initially random and confused, Where the (name removed by moderator)uts are negative, Love (the teacher) will make an initial correction.
The teacher (Love) then instructs our thoughts, showing them how they should behave, and respond to external (name removed by moderator)uts. She then tests those thoughts to see if they conform with what she has taught (Love) and releases tthose thoughts that do conform to Love and holding back those who do not.
Those Loving thoughts that are released, go out into the world as “Godly Wisdom”. Those that are not Loving are held back until they can conform, or are rejected outright.

Thus the world sees one who is wise, through Love.

Love is the gatekeeper. She filters (name removed by moderator)ut comparing it to God’s Love. She filters our thinking so as to reject that which is not of God’s Love and releases those impulses that do fit with God’s Love. Others will generally see that a person is Wise in Love, though the more worldy might view such wisdom as folly. Yet even most of them cannot resist the truly loving and good person. Consider the worldwide and ecumenical Love people have for St Francis and Blessed Mother Theresa of Calcutta.
Thus is Godly Wisdom seen even by the natural world through the services and filter and Action of Love.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

The use of feminine nouns and language for a male is not an issue. It is a matter of grammer and how gender is applied to words. This is not a teaching that Wisdom is female. It is a matter of grammer. The noun for wisdom in Hebrew and Greek is in the feminine gender, and it demands feminine pronouns. It’s no different than when other men are given titles that have a feminine gender. One example is: Naphtali us called “a hind” in Gen 49:21 which is a female deer and he is metaphorically represented as a “she,” that produces fawns!

The burden of proof is on you, Ryan. Without evidence indicating that Christ is Wisdom, you are making an argument from ignorance. Me, I find it difficult to believe that I should call Jesus my sister.

Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,”
and call understanding your kinsman;

(Proverbs 7:4)

Holy Mary, perhaps, might be Wisdom, but Jesus the Son of God? However, let’s say that you are correct, and Christ is the woman called Wisdom described in the first chapters of Proverbs. If He is, then doesn’t that mean that He is not eternal, but had a beginning?

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

(Proverbs 8:22-26)

What other explanation of these words could there be? Christ is either a created god (as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons claim) or He is not the Wisdom that did not exist until God the Father created Him.

 

[spockrates]

That is a very good question. And I expect each answer would be different for each of them based on what their individual expectations, characters, weakness, and temperments were.

We really dont know much about these men do we? Yet, we know, Christ called them specifically to be His Apostles. With a few exceptions, some are only mentioned by name with little else ever said. Know doubt they each had unique qualities.

I understand there are traditions that follow them.

It will be interesting to ask them what it was like. What they were thinking, what they were feeling.

To know what their individual spiritual journeys were like.

Bet it will be fascinating.

Yes, it would. But what I was asking was not that you read their minds, but what the faith is that they had, weak as it was. It seems to me that if one word was used to describe Faith, it would be trust. Does it seem so to you, too?

 

[Marie5890]

Yes, it would. But what I was asking was not that you read their minds, but what the faith is that they had, weak as it was. It seems to me that if one word was used to describe Faith, it would be trust. Does it seem so to you, too?

I think trust is part of faith, but only part. Faith goes even beyond that in an area that is unreachable by trust. They are not one in the same.

Trust is usually built upon by knowledge and experience.
The apostles certainly couldnt fully trust in all that Jesus because they didnt have the knowledge of what He ment by resurrection. All they had to go upon was faith.

(Although it could be brought to mind that even being witnesses to the Transfiguration didnt little to encourage either faith or trust in Peter, James, and John; they were still weak in faith)

I guess it would be fair to say that because they lacked full trust in Christ after His areest and crucifixtion is a good their faith faultered.

It’s been my experience that trust is easier after the fruits of faith have been shown and harvested.

I would suggest to you that the Apostles had full trust only after Pentecost, after the trial of their faith.

And they were tried.

It seems only after Pentecost, and not before, was their faith and trust made perfect.
Which means, only after the reception of the Holy Spirit.
Being with Christ during His ministry, and even after His resurrection and ascention , they still had doubts…

(Matt 28:16-17)

So no, I dont think faith and trust are the same thing. Faith is an act of the will. Trust is based on knowledge of experience.

 

[pneuma07]

P07:

I think the passage you mentioned deserves continued examination. Yes, I do agree that God most certainly loves all who do not reject His love. And yes, it is an easy question to answer that I asked, for to be loved by God is better than to just grasp how wide and long and high and deep is His Love. But isn’t that the point of what Saint Paul was saying? Isn’t he saying that receiving the Love of God surpasses merely knowing about His Love?

Dear Spock,

possibly we’re ( also) told in Ephesians 3 that, since mere human knowledge by itself cannot conceive the greatness and depth of His Love, it is just hearts where He dwells through faith and that are rooted in love which can know what surpasses human knowledge, ie His Love.

That seems to show us that faith AND love have so much to do with knowledge as to allow us to reach what our human wisdom could not.

Usually Saint Paul’s points are not trivial.

Does that sound reasonable ?

 

[pneuma07]

That is my hope and my prayer, Pneuma!



Well, if the greatest virtue in you or I is indeed trust, then that would mean Faith is greater than Love (for Faith is trust), and Saint Paul would be wrong! Rather than this,

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

this would be the truth,

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is [faith].

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

But if the greatest virtue is that in which we trust in God, then I suppose that would be a toss up between Love and Wisdom and Justice. For we trust that God is not only loving, but also wise and just in the way he applies His love.

Still, the idea that God demonstrates His three attributes in saving us from condemnation does not help us decide whether Love, or Wisdom, or Justice is greatest. And that reminds me of something. If God is completely and perfectly loving, and completely and perfectly wise, and completely and perfectly just, than can any attribute of His be rightly said to be lesser than any other? Would they not all be equally great?

Your insights here were ignited by a typo of mine. Ie “trust” for thrust.

We could probably say that the thrust of the Gospel is about Love , ie that God Loves us and we should Love. This makes Agape IMHO the greatest Christian virtue.
Wouldn’t you somehow agree on that ?

I dare not go into speculative thoughts about God’s attributes here, I’d rather remain on the virtues which are proposed to us. What I could say is that we are the fruits of His Love ( acting through Wisdom ) , not of His Justice.

 

[pneuma07]

Yes, I know you were. Since God’s mode of creation is beyond comprehension, I was speaking of something like it–an act of creation accomplished by one made in His image. If we can understand this simple thing, perhaps it will help us get closer to understanding the infinitely more complex one, who is God.

You have spoken as logically as Spock and as reasonably as Socrates!



I suppose I’m considering Wisdom in the widest sense, as if every way of being wise is an aspect of the one virtue called Wisdom. But I do find it helpful to see that the moral (or as you call it, cardinal) virtue of prudence is an aspect of Wisdom. Wisdom, then, would encompass both the intellectual, and in part the moral, virtues. I believe Solomon would tend to agree with you that prudence is an attribute of Wisdom:

The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;

for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;

for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young-

let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-

for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools [a] despise wisdom and discipline.

(Proverbs 1:1-7)

• If we can understand this simple thing, perhaps it will help us get closer to understanding the infinitely more complex one, who is God.*

This way the focus is IMHO appropriately back on us. You are following the philosopher Giambattista Vico here, who would teach us that what we can know best is what men themselves do.

One of the very first speeches by JPII, in 1978, happens to be on Prudence, the catechesis in his first General Audience.

Here is an excerpt.

"
prudence is the key for the accomplishment of the fundamental task that each of us has received from God. This task is the perfection of man himself. God has given our humanity to each of us. We must meet this task by planning it accordingly.

But the Christian has the right and the duty to look at the virtue of prudence also in another perspective. It is, as it were, the image and likeness of the Providence of God himself in the dimensions of concrete man. ….

Well, man who is the image of God, must — as St Thomas again teaches — in some way be providence: but within the proportions of his life. He can take part in this great march of all creatures towards the purpose, which is the good of creation. He must — expressing ourselves even more in the language of faith — take part in the divine plan of salvation. He must march towards salvation, and help others to save themselves. By helping others, he saves himself.

I pray in order that, in this light, those who are listening to me will think now of their own lives. Am I prudent? Do I live consistently and responsibly? Does the programme I am realizing serve the real good? Does it serve the salvation that Christ and the Church want for us? If a boy or girl student, a son or a daughter, is listening to me today, let such a person look in this light at the homework, reading, interests, pastimes, the circle of friends, boys and girls. If a father or a mother of a family is listening to me, let such a person think a little of the conjugal and parental commitments. If a minister or statesman is listening to me, let him look at the range of his duties and responsibilities. Is he pursuing the real good of society, of the nation, of mankind? Or only particular and partial interests?
………
I, too, who am speaking to you, I the Pope, what must I do to act prudently?"

It seems that prudence as “charioteer of virtues” , and as “image and likeness of the Providence of God” ( the term prudentia comes from Providentia), Providence being ultimately His loving care, has a particularly strict relationship with Love.

 

[pneuma07]

Pneuma:

Perhaps we should put Wisdom and Love to the test in hope of seeing who is best? Let’s try this: Is it better to love unwisely? or is it better to act wisely, but not in a spirit of love?

Consider this example:

A grandchild loves her grandmother deeply. Her grandmother has become an invalid and is in pain and in the hospital and asks her grandchild to demonstrate her love. The grandchild says she will do anything her grandmother asks; anything at all, for her love is so great for her. Her grandmother says that she wants her granddaughter to bring her poison from her home and then help her take it so that she can end the pain, for she cannot leave the hospital and she does not have the use of her arms any longer. The granddaughter, out of love for her grandmother, does as she asks.

Now I have two questions: (1) Is it not true that the granddaughter loves her grandmother? (2) Is it true that her love is demonstrated in an unwise way?

True and true, i’d say.

Now, from a secular point, it appears quite a common element of …wisdom, that love and knowledge should walk together. And this was eg the great persuasion expressed by the non-religious Bertrand Russel. Obviously knowledge can hurt without love, and love itself can hurt, without knowledge.

This granddaughter committed sin out of sincere love. Not up to us judging her. About how that was unwise it depends on the specific case.

Here is another situation.

On an already loaded helicopter, which is rescuing people from a flood, Kenneth accepts one more person who is desperately asking for help. As a consequence, after a while the helicopter crashes and several people die.

Kenneth was unwise, against prudence, we should probably say. Did he also commit sin ?

Both situations do appear to severely test St. Augustine’s words:* love and do what you will*.

We could say, as already observed, that wisdom teaches ( can teach, should teach ) us how to love, how to apply love.
Does that mean Wisdom is as great or even greater than Agape ?
I am not inclined to answer affirmatively.

Agape is the right source of our actions as it was the source of the creation. Could we probably say that Wisdom is the right tool of Agape ? Probably we are in harmony with divine design when we act out of love through wisdom.

We could say it is our duty, in order to properly love, looking for wisdom. But we have to pursue wisdom out of love.

Yesterday I got to know that my daughter who is 3 has a pneumonia. Our love for her now needs to know what is better for her. Isn’t it ultimately part of love looking for wisdom ?

I’d like to offer one more consideration Spock.

In both situations above we are probably inclined to consider the granddaughter’s and Kenneth’s love for the neighbour. They did love.
But what about the first part of the commandment of Love ?
Did they love God ?
It is likely that we often forget this aspect, which is IMHO fundamental also for our exploration of the relation Love-Wisdom.

In Christ
P7

 

[pneuma07]

And please, gentlemen, don’t misunderstand. I’m not asking for more of the same. We’ve all said many and majestic things about the virtues of the virtue of Love. That is all well and good, but it does not prove Solomon wrong. What we need is to beat him at his own game: He says nothing compares to Wisdom, so let’s compare Love to her and show him the truth! Let us fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because __________________________ .

BTW

You may want to consider posts 149 and 147 ( particularly on Proverbs 8 )

 

[fisherman_carl]

Well, Jim, I suppose it is God’s love that saves me, but my faith that makes it possible to receive that love that saves me.

Your faith, according to Eph 2:9 is a gift from God. So love precedes faith because it is out of God’s love for us that he gave us that faith in the first place. It is not simply our own faith, that is coming solely from ourselves. It is instead God’s faith that he gives to us. Salvation is by grace. So no man can boast.

Faith is a result of God’s love for us. It is a direct consequence from hearing God’s word. His word bears fruit in us and produces faith. So faith is a fruit of God’s seed in us. And God’s word does not return void. “So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)

Faith is not an end in of itself nor is it by itself the sole producer of our salvation. It works in harmony with love and does not stand solely on its own.

Love is what we are all called to do because we are all called to be like Christ Jesus who for the sake of love suffered and died on a cross for our sins. “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” (John 15:13)

“But God proves his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us.” (Romans 5:8)

And love will in the end remain. In this world we walk by faith. And “Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1). But in heaven our hope will be fulfilled and things not seen before will become visible.

Our faith will be like a crowning glory.
“In this you rejoice, although now for a little while you may have to suffer through various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith, more precious than gold that is perishable even though tested by fire, may prove to be for praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:6-7)

But faith on its own is dead.

“… if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.” (1 Cor 13:2)

 

[spockrates]

(sigh)

Not all Wisdom is Love and not all Love is Wisdom. I can say this because not all “Love” nor all “Wisdom” come from God. …

The many faces of Love

When you say, “Not all Wisdom is Love and not all Love is Wisdom,” I gather you mean that *some *Wisdom *is *Love and some Love is Wisdom. I suppose that if what you say is true, it will not be too difficult for me to learn why. Then, perhaps, I will find that what I thought was Wisdom was actually just another face of Love, and I might also find that what I though were other virtues were also identical to Love!

Now, I know what it is you say is true, but how do learn why it’s true? I don’t want to make the mistake that Socrates cautions me not to make:

No matter what the subject, there is for those who wish to deliberate well upon it always one and the same starting point: You must know what it is you are deliberating about, or you will inevitably fail altogether. Most people, however, are not aware of their ignorance of a thing’s essential nature, and because they think they know all about it, they fail to secure agreement about the premises of their inquiry at its beginning. As they proceed, they reap the predictable harvest of this oversight: They disagree with one another and even contradict themselves. Now, you and I must not be guilty of this fundamental error that we condemn in others.

(Phaedrus, 237)

Thus, I don’t want to be ignorance of Love’s essential nature. So I want to begin by considering the basics of what Love is. Would you say, James, that Love is all, or some, of these?

• an emotion
• a motivation
• a decision
• an action

 

[spockrates]

Your faith, according to Eph 2:9 is a gift from God. So love precedes faith because it is out of God’s love for us that he gave us that faith in the first place. It is not simply our own faith, that is coming solely from ourselves. It is instead God’s faith that he gives to us. Salvation is by grace. So no man can boast.

Faith is a result of God’s love for us. It is a direct consequence from hearing God’s word. His word bears fruit in us and produces faith. So faith is a fruit of God’s seed in us. And God’s word does not return void. “So shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; It shall not return to me void, but shall do my will, achieving the end for which I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)
…

Yes, Fisherman, I see what you mean, and I hope you decide to sit at the beach while I make a fire so we can eat some of the Wisdom you have caught!



But is not *reason *(or the virtue of Wisdom) a prerequisite for genuine Faith? Isn’t it necessary to first learn the truth before one can put one’s faith (or trust) in that truth?

“Come now, let us reason together,”
says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.”

(Isaiah 1:18)