Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

Actually I disgree. I think the virture is Faith by which we obtain Truth. Not Wisdom.

I think the Apostles obtained Truth because of their Faith, not because of their Wisdom.

In His ministry Christ emphasized faith, not wisdom.

Perhaps I can be persuaded if you tell me what Faith is and what Wisdom is.

 

[Marie5890]

Potentially wise, if not practically so!



At any rate, they became wise, didn’t they? Otherwise, why believe anything they wrote if it is all unwise and untrue? Isn’t that what the Wisdom of God is, Mary? The ability to discern, with God’s help, the truth? Aren’t we supposed to worship God in both Love and truth (or Wisdom)?

Jesus declared, “Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.”

(John 4:21-24)

My thought, Mary, is that Love is important, but so is Wisdom. For Love empowers us to worship God in Spirit, but Wisdom enables us worship to God in truth. Both are necessary; don’t you agree?

Ah Ha!

So do you concede that they had Faith in Christ before Wisdom was given them??

 

[Marie5890]

Perhaps I can be persuaded if you tell me what Faith is and what Wisdom is.

A ha!..

You are looking to the understanding of wisdom in human flesh and not exercising Faith in Christ… (chuckle )…

Have you prayer about it?? Have you asked God??

 

[Marie5890]

Jesus also said that the Father was greater than He, yet they are both God. The Father, I suppose, is greater than the Son in authority, but not essence. John the Baptist, perhaps, was greater than Solomon in purpose, but not in Wisdom.

So who do you think Christ would hold up to you as an example? Solomon or John the Baptist considering He proclaim John the Baptist the greatest ??

 

[Marie5890]

You know what I find a wonderful curiosity about we humans.

Many of us do seek wisdom. A very noble and worthwhile aim for sure. I do too.

Yet we seek it from each other. How curiously foolish since the wisdom of men is seen as foolishness to God according to sacred scripture.

 

[pneuma07]

Yes, I suppose I’ve obtained wisdom, but not of my own effort. You see, I’ve learned, as Socrates learned, that I’m something of a midwife. And yes, I guess I’m like Socrates in that

I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

The reason I ask is that I don’t know. And knowing I’m barren of wisdom, I can only hope to receive the satisfaction and relief of giving birth to truth by helping others in labor. I find it curious that those who answer my many questions struggle, as in great pain, like a woman in labor. But when they finally give birth to an answer, if what they bring forth is not stillborn but a living truth, they experience exhilaration, which I too share. These newborn truths are then, in a way, my own godchildren–though I cannot take credit for bringing them successfully to life, but only for having helped others to do so. It’s my sincere hope, P07, that you, and James, and anyone else will not give up but push through till truth sees the light of day, so that we may all share in the joy.

Well, I suppose this is possible only if one continuously rejects the love God offers. Those in hell are a solemn reminder of such a possibility. One burning in hell–what ever that means–cannot possibly be said to be experiencing God’s love! Instead, such an unfortunate–though Wisdom tells us not undeserving–one is experiencing God’s wrath. However, God cannot rightly be said to be unrighteous, for God is in no way unrighteous. Wrath, since it is not an expression of God’s love, must be an expression of some other–and oddly opposite–attribute. Would you say that this attribute is called Justice? And if Justice is another divine aspect of God, it must also be a virtue in us when practiced according to the will of God. It seems, then, that there is one more contender for the place of the greatest virtue of all. Justice joins Wisdom and Love in vying for that place in our hearts.

http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/battlestar-galactica_l.jpg

Who is the greatest? (Left to right) Wisdom, Justice, or Love?

Whether we can deliver truths or not here, I believe we all share the joy of the examination, and possibly the arguments will come to a reasonable conclusion, or show the way for further examination.

About being loved by God I had in mind our earthly context. You rightly remind of the possibility of the final failure. ( in another thread I’d like to explore whether we can dare hope , with the great 20th century catholic theologian von Balthasar that hell could even be … empty )

Justice is giving the due, included by the Catechism within the cardinal virtues, as we know.

Great human virtue that I cannot see as a serious competitor to Agape.
Were it for Justice I would not be here Spock, for existence was certainly not given me out of Justice, and nothing was due to me by God.

And I guess we’re taught to go beyond Justice with our neighbour.

Couldn’t we simply say that the greatest virtue from a Christian perspective is what the trust of the Gospel is about ?

 

[pneuma07]

Yes, what you say sounds wise to me, and that you take the time demonstrates your love to me, or at least your love for seeking the truth for your own sake, if not for mine.



Remember, the challenge King David’s wisest son Solomon gives to us is this:

For Wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

And to meet that challenge, we must compare Wisdom with Love to prove Solomon wrong and to demonstrate that nothing you or I desire can compare with Love. To accomplish this, I think, you are heading in the right direction. We must define both Love and Wisdom, and understand them–as far as is possible with God’s help and the help of each other. For how can we accurately compare what we do not know?

Let’s, then, take a look at what you just said:

… if we can know something, it is because there was a creation through His perfect Wisdom out of His perfect Love.

If by “there was a creation” you mean a conception of truth within the souls of you and I, I’d say that I agree. Now, exactly how God creates–or conceives–such an understanding of the truth in you and I would be nearly impossible to explain. But to say what such a creation is like would be possible, perhaps.

Let’s compare creating truth in the soul of you or I to a computer programmer creating software to benefit those with a particular need. We might consider the programmer who helped develop this useful Web site. By Wisdom he might conceive of how the CAF Forums should be. By Wisdom he might plan create the HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PDP, and other code to make this Forum a reality. But Wisdom would not be the motivation behind the design. No, if our programmer was a good man, Love would be his motivator. And Wisdom is likely not the end result of his work. No, if our programmer was a good man, the end result would be an expression of love for the people like you and me who use the Web site. I find then this curious cooperation of Wisdom and Love in the creation of the CAF Forum.

1. 
   *]Wisdom tells one that love should be his motivation for creation
   *]Love then motivates him to create
   *]Wisdom determines the best way to carry out this motivation to create
   *]Love acts out the plan that Wisdom determines for this creation
   *]The end result is a creation that is the product of both Love and Wisdom
   
   A creation that pleases God, then, is one where Wisdom and Love work together. Do you think I’m on to something, here?

1. 
   I was indeed speaking about creation by God.
   
   But your interpretation allows us IMHO to try to discern important distinctions within what we have been calling Wisdom. Which is maybe very helpful potentially in assessing the Love-Wisdom relation.
   
   Speakong about knowledge I’d say, that planning and running a web site requires what ancient greeks would probably call “techne”, something like ability to do through knowledge or experience.
   That would not be Sophia, considered let’s say as a look into reality and our place within it.
   
   Another useful concept linked to knowledge I’d say is then “episteme”, something like solid or hard knowledge.
   
   I also wonder whether we have to consider two distinct aspects within wisdom itself .
   
   If I am not wrong, wisdom literature in the Greek OT , including Wisdom and Sirach, is about Sophia, which seems to be how the hebrew concept in Proverbs ( chokmà) is translated.
   
   But what is attributed to Solomon, as the wisest of men, seems to have much to to with what greek secular thought would call " phronesis", or practical wisdom.
   
   Now this is what has been received and elaborated by the Church as the cardinal virtue of prudentia, which is of course much more than the modern meaning near to cautiosness.
   1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; "the prudent man looks where he is going."65 "Keep sane and sober for your prayers."66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid. *
   
   It si particularly interesting that the CCC here quotes precisley from Proverb 14.
   
   When speaking in the present thread about Wisdom Spock, do you mean Sophia, of Phronesis/Prudence , or both of them ?
   
   Now, speaking about Prudentia, and in the light of the Catechism, we could probably call it the greatest among human virtues.
   
   Therefore it was IMHO wise of you proposing Wisdom , including I guess Prudentia, as the most serious competitor with Agape.
   
   The theological virtue of Agape being the greatest in absolute terms for Christians.
   
   In your previous post you ask whether Agape is always wise.
   
   A first temptative answer I’d dare propose is:
   Loving is always wise. The way we act out of Love is not always the most prudent.
   
   In Christ
   P7

 

[JRKH]

OK, I think I’m beginning to see what you mean: Love is a kind (or type) of Wisdom. That is, not all Wisdom is Love, but all Love is Wisdom. Is this what you are saying?

(sigh)

Not all Wisdom is Love and not all Love is Wisdom. I can say this because not all “Love” nor all “Wisdom” come from God.
The prideful person has a “Love” but it is a selfish Love not God’s Love.
An evil warLord has wisdom but it is a selfish wisdom and a wisdom of destruction, not a wisdom of God.

Right Love (of God and from God) leads to Right Wisdom (a right “worldview” based on God’s Love)
Thus, I hope, that you can see that God’s Love is inseperable from God given Wisdom, Nor in fact is God’s Love seperable from ANY of the virtues.
Look at it this way.
You have an Old mechanical watch full of the most intricate and beautiful parts, exquisitely designed and meticulously made and assembled in a jeweled movement and finely crafted gold case. Being the curious type you wish to know how it works so you begin to take it apart and examine each part, it’s position and fucntion. Then you begin to put it back together and discover that it does nto work.
Why? because you did not put in some part or other.
You take it back apart and try again. Still doesn’t work.
Why? because you put in one of the parts backwards.
You Try again. Finally it works.
Why?
Because EVERY part is essential. Every part must be present and properly installed.
Without the interconnection of ALL of the components the watch is worthless for what it was intended to do.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Actually I disagree. One does not need to know truth (and thus need wisdom) before they can exercise faith in Christ.

And I think that is the difference. As Christians we are not told to just “have faith” but to “have faith in Christ”

Hindus and Muslims have faith, but not faith in Christ.

Its possible to have faith in all kinds of things.
But that is not the same as having faith in Christ.

Without faith in Christ there is no pleasing God, right?

The problem with this is that the Church teaches that even if someone has never heard the Gospel they may still be saved if the seek God in Truth to the best of their ability.
Thus, even without faith in Christ one might be saved. But to be saved one must seek after something that IS God - that is Christ - so what is that thing…

Since God is Love, as St John says, then Christ, who is God, is also Love. If one Loves with a Godly Love (not a selfish love) then one can be pleasing to God.
We are Told that the Greatest Commandments, the basis for all other commandments and Law is Love. Therefore Love must be the underpinning of all - Even Our Faith.

Peace
James

 

[Monte1945]

Believe it or not, Monte, Socrates taught that your way is actually the best way to teach.



In fact, Socrates believed that wisdom cannot be taught, but only received by divine revelation from the only Wise God. If you want to learn more about Socrates’ theory of being taught by God, you can read Plato’s Meno:

classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html

Thank you for the link to Plato… Good stuff… I always had such an interest
in Philosophy but kind of lacked what it took to grasp most of what they
were saying, but then it might have been their way of presenting it.

I checked out a basic one book on the whole progressive development
of thought and though it was short in details… there were some wonderful
points made…

There was this one man and I am thinking “Locke” and he said…

“The only truths we learn of are those we discover” Meaning to me
that we encounter certain truths but there might be other truths
that we have not encountered but yet are truths just the same.

So why is that. Does God lead us to the truths we need to encounter,
as he knows if one birds falls from the tree he knows what we are
doing and what truths we need to know… Or do we have some say
as to what truths we encounter… Does God lead us by inclination
and we have the choice to “not” go in that direction and in doing
so do we lose out on a truth we were to know?..

Now having step across my lurking line. I shall step back across
and go to that web sight of Plato, and “read”…

Again thanks for the link…

 

[Monte1945]

Definitely.

You have great experiences to share with us.

BTW Welcome to CAF Monte1945 !

P7

Thank you. I find this thread very interesting and enjoy
my lurking. I have found some of the comments
here very stimulating and that has caused
me to do some serious thinking… which isn’t easy
with a limited mind… such as mine… smile.

 

[Monte1945]

(Have to say what an interesting thread you have going here …Love reading the posts. During His life time here, what did Christ have to say about wisdom as found in the Gospels?)

I don’t know about what Christ might have said, but St. Paul certainly had some
interesting views on it… One of my favorite ones is:

1 Corinthians 2
Paul’s Reliance upon the Spirit
1And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.

I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,

and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,

so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;

but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

but just as it is written,
“THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM.”

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.

For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

unquote…

That might give you a beginning to some insight to it…

I think there might be two wisdoms of the spirit, as St. Paul and this is a wisdom of God and there is a spirit of widsom of man’s mind and ablitities. I think the word wisdom can
be applied both to man’s ability to think and reason, and also there is a different wisdom which is of and from God. We have to somehow, find how to know of the difference and apply them as needed.

It certainly “seems” wise for me to have learned that first slap… hurt… and to take from
that new wisdom and wack this guy back! He has it coming in the name of Justice.

It is the wisdom of God for me to turn my cheek and let him slap me the second time
to show him no compliance to evil and to stop it from passing on and on and on.

Two different wisdoms here… (food for thought)

 

[spockrates]

A ha!..

You are looking to the understanding of wisdom in human flesh and not exercising Faith in Christ… (chuckle )…

Have you prayer about it?? Have you asked God??

Yes, Marie, and He said I should ask you.

 

[spockrates]

You know what I find a wonderful curiosity about we humans.

Many of us do seek wisdom. A very noble and worthwhile aim for sure. I do too.

Yet we seek it from each other. How curiously foolish since the wisdom of men is seen as foolishness to God according to sacred scripture.

Are you saying that God only gives Wisdom to us directly–for example, through the Holy Spirit–and not through one another, nor through the Church?

 

[spockrates]

Ah Ha!

So do you concede that they had Faith in Christ before Wisdom was given them??

You misunderstand me, Marie. The reason, I think, is that when you say Wisdom or Faith, you must mean something different than what I mean when I say the same. Unless you and I come to an understanding of what Faith and Wisdom really are, we will never understand one another. So, don’t be coy, Marie. Tell me plainly what you think Faith and what you think Wisdom are, and I’ll tell you the same, and then we can figure it out together.

 

[Marie5890]

Are you saying that God only gives Wisdom to us directly–for example, through the Holy Spirit–and not through one another, nor through the Church?

No, what I am saying is that we should look to God for Wisdom, and He will deliver it to us in whatever manner He deems appropriate.

Sometimes we look to others for whatever answers we are looking for, rather than looking to Him and letting Him decided the manner in which he wants to answer.

 

[Marie5890]

You misunderstand me, Marie. The reason, I think, is that when you say Wisdom or Faith, you must mean something different than what I mean when I say the same. Unless you and I come to an understanding of what Faith and Wisdom really are, we will never understand one another. So, don’t be coy, Marie. Tell me plainly what you think Faith and what you think Wisdom are, and I’ll tell you the same, and then we can figure it out together.

Wasnt being coy, Spockrates. Im sincere.

What do I think the difference is? I think knowledge and wisdom are more closely related and have more to do with excersizing right action.

Faith I dont think requires either wisdom or even knowledge but those certainly help in increasing faith.

When Christ called the Aposltes, Im of the belief they followed Him because of their faith, not because of their wisdom or even their knowledge. We know well enough He spent alot of time instructing them during His ministry and after.

But it was their faith that kept them there, and it was their faith that failed them at the time of the Crucifixion and it was their faith that brought them back.

By the time of the Crucifixion they had witnessed many miracles. Infact Peter, James, and John were even present at the Transfiguration. But that did prevent them from abandoning Him in the end.

In sure you are referring to Godly Wisdom. And I believe that can be given us. But I dont think it’s given to us prior to us having sufficient Faith.

Fruits come after sufficient faith. Not sufficient wisdom.

 

[spockrates]

Whether we can deliver truths or not here, I believe we all share the joy of the examination, and possibly the arguments will come to a reasonable conclusion, or show the way for further examination.

That is my hope and my prayer, Pneuma!

About being loved by God I had in mind our earthly context. You rightly remind of the possibility of the final failure. ( in another thread I’d like to explore whether we can dare hope , with the great 20th century catholic theologian von Balthasar that hell could even be … empty )

Justice is giving the due, included by the Catechism within the cardinal virtues, as we know.

Great human virtue that I cannot see as a serious competitor to Agape. Were it for Justice I would not be here Spock, for existence was certainly not given me out of Justice, and nothing was due to me by God.

And I guess we’re taught to go beyond Justice with our neighbour.

Couldn’t we simply say that the greatest virtue from a Christian perspective is what the trust of the Gospel is about ?

Well, if the greatest virtue in you or I is indeed trust, then that would mean Faith is greater than Love (for Faith is trust), and Saint Paul would be wrong! Rather than this,

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

this would be the truth,

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is [faith].

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

But if the greatest virtue is that in which we trust in God, then I suppose that would be a toss up between Love and Wisdom and Justice. For we trust that God is not only loving, but also wise and just in the way he applies His love.

Still, the idea that God demonstrates His three attributes in saving us from condemnation does not help us decide whether Love, or Wisdom, or Justice is greatest. And that reminds me of something. If God is completely and perfectly loving, and completely and perfectly wise, and completely and perfectly just, than can any attribute of His be rightly said to be lesser than any other? Would they not all be equally great?

 

[spockrates]

I was indeed speaking about creation by God.

But your interpretation allows us IMHO to try to discern important distinctions within what we have been calling Wisdom. Which is maybe very helpful potentially in assessing the Love-Wisdom relation.

Yes, I know you were. Since God’s mode of creation is beyond comprehension, I was speaking of something like it–an act of creation accomplished by one made in His image. If we can understand this simple thing, perhaps it will help us get closer to understanding the infinitely more complex one, who is God.

Speakong about knowledge I’d say, that planning and running a web site requires what ancient greeks would probably call “techne”, something like ability to do through knowledge or experience. That would not be Sophia, considered let’s say as a look into reality and our place within it.

Another useful concept linked to knowledge I’d say is then “episteme”, something like solid or hard knowledge.

I also wonder whether we have to consider two distinct aspects within wisdom itself .

If I am not wrong, wisdom literature in the Greek OT , including Wisdom and Sirach, is about Sophia, which seems to be how the hebrew concept in Proverbs ( chokmà) is translated.

But what is attributed to Solomon, as the wisest of men, seems to have much to do with what greek secular thought would call " phronesis", or practical wisdom.

Now this is what has been received and elaborated by the Church as the cardinal virtue of prudentia, which is of course much more than the modern meaning near to cautiousness.
1806 Prudence* is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; "the prudent man looks where he is going."65 "Keep sane and sober for your prayers."66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.

It is particularly interesting that the CCC here quotes precisley from Proverb 14.

When speaking in the present thread about Wisdom Spock, do you mean Sophia, of Phronesis/Prudence , or both of them?

Now, speaking about Prudentia, and in the light of the Catechism, we could probably call it the greatest among human virtues.

Therefore it was IMHO wise of you proposing Wisdom , including I guess Prudentia, as the most serious competitor with Agape.

The theological virtue of Agape being the greatest in absolute terms for Christians.

In your previous post you ask whether Agape is always wise.

A first temptative answer I’d dare propose is:
Loving is always wise. The way we act out of Love is not always the most prudent.

In Christ
P7

You have spoken as logically as Spock and as reasonably as Socrates!



I suppose I’m considering Wisdom in the widest sense, as if every way of being wise is an aspect of the one virtue called Wisdom. But I do find it helpful to see that the moral (or as you call it, cardinal) virtue of prudence is an aspect of Wisdom. Wisdom, then, would encompass both the intellectual, and in part the moral, virtues. I believe Solomon would tend to agree with you that prudence is an attribute of Wisdom:

The proverbs of Solomon son of David, king of Israel:

for attaining wisdom and discipline;
for understanding words of insight;

for acquiring a disciplined and prudent life,
doing what is right and just and fair;

for giving prudence to the simple,
knowledge and discretion to the young-

let the wise listen and add to their learning,
and let the discerning get guidance-

for understanding proverbs and parables,
the sayings and riddles of the wise.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge,
but fools [a] despise wisdom and discipline.

(Proverbs 1:1-7)

 

[spockrates]

Pneuma:

Perhaps we should put Wisdom and Love to the test in hope of seeing who is best? Let’s try this: Is it better to love unwisely? or is it better to act wisely, but not in a spirit of love?

Consider this example:

A grandchild loves her grandmother deeply. Her grandmother has become an invalid and is in pain and in the hospital and asks her grandchild to demonstrate her love. The grandchild says she will do anything her grandmother asks; anything at all, for her love is so great for her. Her grandmother says that she wants her granddaughter to bring her poison from her home and then help her take it so that she can end the pain, for she cannot leave the hospital and she does not have the use of her arms any longer. The granddaughter, out of love for her grandmother, does as she asks.

Now I have two questions: (1) Is it not true that the granddaughter loves her grandmother? (2) Is it true that her love is demonstrated in an unwise way?