Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[JRKH]

Whoa! Let’s take it one premise at a time, please! I’m feeling like a wimpy kid being pelted by snowballs from every direction. I’ll never become wise about Love that way. So, have pity on me for being so slow, and help me consider your first thought in this post.

You are saying that Love is wise. I suppose you might also agree that Wisdom is loving. And, no doubt, you would agree that Love is loving. Logically, this does not appear to be sound. Please consider the logic:

If

L = Love

and

g = loving

and

W = wisdom

and

e = wise

then

L = e

and

W = e

and

L = g

and

W = g

therefore,

since

g = g

and

e = e

then

W = L

In other words, you are saying that the virtues of Love and Wisdom are, indeed the same. But Love and Wisdom are not possibly one and the same virtue, so how can Love be wise?

The only way you can know that is to do it.

Go out and Love your neighbor as God Loves you. Read the Gospels and Look for the Love in them. Then put that Love into Practice. Once you do that you will see how Wise Love is.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

P07:

Consider an example:

Would you say that the sense of hearing is how we see, or the sense of sight is how we hear? No, I believe you would say the sense of hearing is how we hear and the sense of sight is how we see.

The same is true of the virtues of Love and Wisdom. Would you say that the virtue of Love is how we are wise and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are loving? No, I believe you might now agree that the virtue of Love is how we are loving and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are wise.

Does this sound wise to you? And who tells you whether it is wise–God’s Love or God’s Wisdom?

 

[JRKH]

P07:

Consider an example:

Would you say that the sense of hearing is how we see, or the sense of sight is how we hear? No, I believe you would say the sense of hearing is how we hear and the sense of sight is how we see.

The same is true of the virtues of Love and Wisdom. Would you say that the virtue of Love is how we are wise and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are loving? No, I believe you might now agree that the virtue of Love is how we are loving and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are wise.

Does this sound wise to you? And who tells you whether it is wise–God’s Love or God’s Wisdom?

Something is known as wise in God through God’s Love.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

The only way you can know that is to do it.

Go out and Love your neighbor as God Loves you. Read the Gospels and Look for the Love in them. Then put that Love into Practice. Once you do that you will see how Wise Love is.

Peace
James

Yes, James, I agree that knowing how to love is not the same as living love. I agree that it is wise to love.



Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

But saying it is wise to love is not the same as saying love is wise, is it?

 

[spockrates]

Something is known as wise in God through God’s Love.

Peace
James

Please let me ask you this, James: God is loving and wise, so He might truthfully be said to have the attributes of both Wisdom and Love. Would you say that these two attributes are one and the same thing, or are they different things?

 

[spockrates]

Take after your name sake and follow his advice, James!

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

Is God’s attribute of Wisdom identical to His attribute of Love? Is saying, “God loves me” the same as saying “God wises me”? If Love and Wisdom are *not *identical attributes in God, then how can they be identical virtues in us?

What does the wisdom God reveals tell you, James?

 

[spockrates]

I do not think you are quite getting my point… but then I am not a teacher…

I am not trying to answer your questions… what I am trying to do is to
kind of give you some ways in which to seek the answers you are
seeking as I do not think there is one “encounter” with the Truth
of God. and what I have encountered, am encoutering or will encounter
might not be the same as what you or anyone might might…

Understand when I say truth I mean the Holy Spirit who is coming to
us daily and leading us into deeper truths as we give Him the faith
to do so.

Believe it or not, Monte, Socrates taught that your way is actually the best way to teach.



In fact, Socrates believed that wisdom cannot be taught, but only received by divine revelation from the only Wise God. If you want to learn more about Socrates’ theory of being taught by God, you can read Plato’s Meno:

classics.mit.edu/Plato/meno.html

 

[JRKH]

Yes, James, I agree that knowing how to love is not the same as living love. I agree that it is wise to love.



Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

(1 John 3:18)

But saying it is wise to love is not the same as saying love is wise, is it?

Is God Love? Is God Wise? Then Love is Wise when that Love and Wisdom is of God.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Please let me ask you this, James: God is loving and wise, so He might truthfully be said to have the attributes of both Wisdom and Love. Would you say that these two attributes are one and the same thing, or are they different things?

They are two inseperable aspects of the same thing.

I understand that you like to have everything nicely organized, labeled and place in its proper place before you on the table. But this is not how God’s Love, Wisdom and all other virtues exist.
The Virtues exist as a painting, all interconnected and each relying on others just as a painting relies on paint and canvas as well as the brushes and brush strokes and methods of the painter.
Your method wishes to make sure that each tube of paint, each brush, every palette and canvas are neatly and cleanly defined and organized. But such a method will never make a painting until the organization is messed up and the components applied to the canvas.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

Is God Love? Is God Wise? Then Love is Wise when that Love and Wisdom is of God.

Peace
James

Yes, I agree that it is wise to love and that God is both loving and wise. And I agree that it is wise to love according to the way that God reveals, through the virtue of Wisdom and by way of the example of Christ’s own love for you and me. And I don’t think that you disagree that Wisdom reveals how we should love, and that how we should love is by imitating Christ in the way He loves. Moreover, I think we agree that Wisdom is not Love, and that Love is not Wisdom, though they certainly work together to make us the men God wants us to be. They are different virtues in you or me and perhaps inseparable, just as they are different and inseparable attributes of God.



Am I right in saying we agree?

 

[pneuma07]

LOL! And my wife makes no bones about saying I’m a bone head! I suppose I’m like the Father of Philosophy Socrates, that way, in that I have no Wisdom of my own, but only the ability to exact truth from others.



Yes, I quite agree with the wise Apostle that to know the love of Christ surpasses all knowledge. Tell me, P07, what do you think is better–to be loved by Christ, or to merely know about the love of Christ without ever receiving such love?

Dear Spock,

the ability you have is in no way a minor one.
Isn’t this very ability making you wiser and wiser ?

As for the question , I am afraid after this seemingly easy one
( as expected I vote for the first one ) you have a very difficult one.

But….is it ever possible that you and I are not loved by Him ?

 

[pneuma07]

Whoa! Let’s take it one premise at a time, please! I’m feeling like a wimpy kid being pelted by snowballs from every direction. I’ll never become wise about Love that way. So, have pity on me for being so slow, and help me consider your first thought in this post.

You are saying that Love is wise. I suppose you might also agree that Wisdom is loving. And, no doubt, you would agree that Love is loving. Logically, this does not appear to be sound. Please consider the logic:

If

L = Love

and

g = loving

and

W = wisdom

and

e = wise

then

L = e

and

W = e

and

L = g

and

W = g

therefore,

since

g = g

and

e = e

then

W = L

In other words, you are saying that the virtues of Love and Wisdom are, indeed the same. But Love and Wisdom are not possibly one and the same virtue, so how can Love be wise?

28(AV) And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is,(AW) ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God,(AX) the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31(AY) The second is thisAZ) ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment(BA) greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that(BB) he is one, and(BC) there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all(BD) the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself,(BE) is much more than all(BF) whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”(BG) And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
( Maerk 12)

It seems to me that nothing is wiser than following God’s commandments. Then the greatest wisdom is … following the greatest commandment.
If this is correct Spock, then Loving is not only wise, in itself, but even the supreme wisdom.

13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
( James 3)

OTOH we are told IMHO, that there can be a wisdom that is dead. So as there can be a faith that is dead. And precisely, that these are dead if they are not loving, or acting in love.

( I am thus suggesting Love is wise in itself, Wisdom is not necessarily loving)

I cannot imagine, on the contrary, an Agape that is dead because it lacks any other virtue. Should we ?

 

[pneuma07]

P07:

Consider an example:

Would you say that the sense of hearing is how we see, or the sense of sight is how we hear? No, I believe you would say the sense of hearing is how we hear and the sense of sight is how we see.

The same is true of the virtues of Love and Wisdom. Would you say that the virtue of Love is how we are wise and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are loving? No, I believe you might now agree that the virtue of Love is how we are loving and the virtue of Wisdom is how we are wise.

Does this sound wise to you? And who tells you whether it is wise–God’s Love or God’s Wisdom?

For the above considerations, My impression is that , if you allow the pun, it seems that being loving is precisely what makes a virtue living.

Isn’t it true that without Agape we are nothing ?

So there is no complete symmetry IMHO between Agape and Sophia.

If I have really to answer your great question, I’d say that if we can know something, it is because there was a creation through His perfect Wisdom out of His perfect Love.

In Christ
P7

 

[spockrates]

Dear Spock,

the ability you have is in no way a minor one.
Isn’t this very ability making you wiser and wiser ?

Yes, I suppose I’ve obtained wisdom, but not of my own effort. You see, I’ve learned, as Socrates learned, that I’m something of a midwife. And yes, I guess I’m like Socrates in that

I have, I fear, a tedious way of putting a simple question.

(Theaetetus, 163)

The reason I ask is that I don’t know. And knowing I’m barren of wisdom, I can only hope to receive the satisfaction and relief of giving birth to truth by helping others in labor. I find it curious that those who answer my many questions struggle, as in great pain, like a woman in labor. But when they finally give birth to an answer, if what they bring forth is not stillborn but a living truth, they experience exhilaration, which I too share. These newborn truths are then, in a way, my own godchildren–though I cannot take credit for bringing them successfully to life, but only for having helped others to do so. It’s my sincere hope, P07, that you, and James, and anyone else will not give up but push through till truth sees the light of day, so that we may all share in the joy.

As for the question , I am afraid after this seemingly easy one
( as expected I vote for the first one ) you have a very difficult one.

But….is it ever possible that you and I are not loved by Him ?

Well, I suppose this is possible only if one continuously rejects the love God offers. Those in hell are a solemn reminder of such a possibility. One burning in hell–what ever that means–cannot possibly be said to be experiencing God’s love! Instead, such an unfortunate–though Wisdom tells us not undeserving–one is experiencing God’s wrath. However, God cannot rightly be said to be unrighteous, for God is in no way unrighteous. Wrath, since it is not an expression of God’s love, must be an expression of some other–and oddly opposite–attribute. Would you say that this attribute is called Justice? And if Justice is another divine aspect of God, it must also be a virtue in us when practiced according to the will of God. It seems, then, that there is one more contender for the place of the greatest virtue of all. Justice joins Wisdom and Love in vying for that place in our hearts.

http://thetorchonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/battlestar-galactica_l.jpg

Who is the greatest? (Left to right) Wisdom, Justice, or Love?

 

[spockrates]

28(AV) And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is,(AW) ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God,(AX) the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31(AY) The second is thisAZ) ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment(BA) greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that(BB) he is one, and(BC) there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all(BD) the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself,(BE) is much more than all(BF) whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.”(BG) And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
( Mark 12)

It seems to me that nothing is wiser than following God’s commandments. Then the greatest wisdom is … following the greatest commandment.
If this is correct Spock, then Loving is not only wise, in itself, but even the supreme wisdom. …

I agree that it is wise to love. But I think you are saying much more than that. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but are you saying that Wisdom is not a separate virtue, but is merely an attribute of the virtue of Love? Are you saying that Love is always wise?

 

[spockrates]

For the above considerations, My impression is that , if you allow the pun, it seems that being loving is precisely what makes a virtue living.

Isn’t it true that without Agape we are nothing ?

So there is no complete symmetry IMHO between Agape and Sophia.

If I have really to answer your great question, I’d say that if we can know something, it is because there was a creation through His perfect Wisdom out of His perfect Love.

In Christ
P7

Yes, what you say sounds wise to me, and that you take the time demonstrates your love to me, or at least your love for seeking the truth for your own sake, if not for mine.



Remember, the challenge King David’s wisest son Solomon gives to us is this:

For Wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

And to meet that challenge, we must compare Wisdom with Love to prove Solomon wrong and to demonstrate that nothing you or I desire can compare with Love. To accomplish this, I think, you are heading in the right direction. We must define both Love and Wisdom, and understand them–as far as is possible with God’s help and the help of each other. For how can we accurately compare what we do not know?

Let’s, then, take a look at what you just said:

… if we can know something, it is because there was a creation through His perfect Wisdom out of His perfect Love.

If by “there was a creation” you mean a conception of truth within the souls of you and I, I’d say that I agree. Now, exactly how God creates–or conceives–such an understanding of the truth in you and I would be nearly impossible to explain. But to say what such a creation is like would be possible, perhaps.

Let’s compare creating truth in the soul of you or I to a computer programmer creating software to benefit those with a particular need. We might consider the programmer who helped develop this useful Web site. By Wisdom he might conceive of how the CAF Forums should be. By Wisdom he might plan create the HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PDP, and other code to make this Forum a reality. But Wisdom would not be the motivation behind the design. No, if our programmer was a good man, Love would be his motivator. And Wisdom is likely not the end result of his work. No, if our programmer was a good man, the end result would be an expression of love for the people like you and me who use the Web site. I find then this curious cooperation of Wisdom and Love in the creation of the CAF Forum.

1. 
   *]Wisdom tells one that love should be his motivation for creation
   *]Love then motivates him to create
   *]Wisdom determines the best way to carry out this motivation to create
   *]Love acts out the plan that Wisdom determines for this creation
   *]The end result is a creation that is the product of both Love and Wisdom
   
   A creation that pleases God, then, is one where Wisdom and Love work together. Do you think I’m on to something, here?

 

[spockrates]

They are two inseperable aspects of the same thing.

I understand that you like to have everything nicely organized, labeled and place in its proper place before you on the table. But this is not how God’s Love, Wisdom and all other virtues exist.
The Virtues exist as a painting, all interconnected and each relying on others just as a painting relies on paint and canvas as well as the brushes and brush strokes and methods of the painter.
Your method wishes to make sure that each tube of paint, each brush, every palette and canvas are neatly and cleanly defined and organized. But such a method will never make a painting until the organization is messed up and the components applied to the canvas.

Peace
James

James:

What is that one and the same thing of which Love and Wisdom are two aspects? Is it Virtue itself, or do you have a different name for this Matriarch of the virtues?

 

[Marie5890]

And please, gentlemen, don’t misunderstand. I’m not asking for more of the same. We’ve all said many and majestic things about the virtues of the virtue of Love. That is all well and good, but it does not prove Solomon wrong. What we need is to beat him at his own game: He says nothing compares to Wisdom, so let’s compare Love to her and show him the truth! Let us fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because __________________________ .

Because it was for Love of us God came into the world…not for the wisdom of us.

Because it was for Love of us God died on the cross…Not for the wisdom of us.

You made the comment a few posts to this that King Solomon was the wisest man ever…I beg to differ…

I say it was and IS Christ…

The emphasis of His ministry was to love and to serve our fellow human beings as He did…

The emphasis was not so much about wisdom. He certainly didnt chose wise men to be His apostles.

Look to the Gospels, not to Proverbs.

Just a thought.

 

[Marie5890]

Are you saying that Love is always wise?

Was it wise of Christ to sacrifice Himself for us because of His great love?

 

[Marie5890]

(Have to say what an interesting thread you have going here …Love reading the posts. During His life time here, what did Christ have to say about wisdom as found in the Gospels?)