Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

Forgive my tardyness in responding.

I would rather say that the correct understanding of Truth is Wisdom. One achieves such Wisdom through Love. That is to say by looking at things through the eyes of Love for God and fellow man.

Peace
James

No need to apologize!



Not sure I understand, James, what you mean by, “Looking at things through the eyes of love for God and fellow man.” But I’d like to understand you! Please explain, or perhaps give me an example.

 

[spockrates]

Well, gentlemen, I fear you all now fear there is no defense left for Love. Solomon, the wisest man the world has ever know, has spoken. How can we match wits with him? But let us not desert her, as Jesus’ disciples deserted Him, and fled like cowardice curs with their tails between their legs, at His most darkest hour! Let us heed Socrates’ admonition:

And do not say you cannot answer. Be brave, like a man, and if God is willing, you will be able to answer.

(Theaetetus, 151)

Take heart! Love is certainly worthy of all the courage we can muster in her defense, for she is how God first loved us! So let us rise to this formidable challenge against her honor made by the so-called wisest man who ever lived. Let us put our heads together and consider how even the wise king might be mistaken in claiming there is no comparison between the Love we love and the Wisdom he espouses. If Solomon is in error when he accuses her, saying,

For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

then surely, or perhaps ironically, Wisdom will prove him wrong! Now, I think it right to say that Saint Paul’s words in the Love chapter of the Bible are not enough to prove Solomon’s saying a slander against her. For the Apostle merely states that Love is greater than Faith and Hope.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

But surely this is not all the Bible has to say about the unsurpassed beauty and desirability of our lady Love? Come now; speak up, men! Tell Solomon why, on this occasion, he is mistaken. Answer how Love is greater than even his prized gift from God, the woman Wisdom.

 

[spockrates]

And please, gentlemen, don’t misunderstand. I’m not asking for more of the same. We’ve all said many and majestic things about the virtues of the virtue of Love. That is all well and good, but it does not prove Solomon wrong. What we need is to beat him at his own game: He says nothing compares to Wisdom, so let’s compare Love to her and show him the truth! Let us fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because __________________________ .

 

[JRKH]

No need to apologize!



Not sure I understand, James, what you mean by, “Looking at things through the eyes of love for God and fellow man.” But I’d like to understand you! Please explain, or perhaps give me an example.

Wisdom is not the accumulation of knowledge, but rather the understanding and measurement of knowledge against an underlying principle. For the Christian that principle is Love. Therefore nothing can be called Christian Wisdom unless it stems from and returns to Love.

St John tells us that God is Love
Jesus tells us that All of the Law and All of the Prophets are based on Love
St Paul tells us that Love is the Greatest of the Gifts and indeed without Love nothing else matters.

Love is how we measure and understand all other “Laws” and “rules”.
Look at Mt Chapter 5.
Jesus talks about a number of rules and then expands those rules to include, not just actions, but thoughts.
Why?
Because Love of God and neighbor requires it.
If I Think to steal from my neighbor and then do it, I have sinned twice.
Why?
Because the thought is a sin against God’s Love.
The Action is a sin agianst our neighbor which is also a sin against God.

All of our thoughts, All of our actions either bring us closer to - or further away from God. Love is the measure. Without Love, without Love being our worldview, we have no wisdom.

Peace
James

 

[ryanoneil]

What I hear you saying confidently, Ryan, is that nothing compares to Love. And I’d like to believe you, but there is something holding me back. That something are these words of wisdom about Wisdom from Sacred Scripture:

(Proverbs 8:1-11) It’s that eleventh verse, you see. The writer of Proverbs tells you and me that** “nothing you desire compares with [Wisdom].”** Does this not mean that the Love God gives does not compare with Wisdom God gives you and I?

I would say no. The personification of Wisdom in the Old Testament “IS” the person of Jesus Christ himself. If you plug Him into your post it would read: “nothing you desire compares with [Jesus].” Does this not mean that the Love God gives does not compare with the Son He gave you and I?

If you carry the personification idea to the limit, the Love of 1 Cor 13 would have to be a the Father. In the Trinity He is the greatest as love is the greatest in relation to faith and hope. But I really don’t think Paul is personifying love in this way at all. He is talking about attributes and wisdom is nothing without love.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

 

[pneuma07]

Thank you, P07 for those words of wisdom. I hope God will grant you more wisdom to answer this question: Is “the power to know” an attribute of Faith, or an attribute of Love, or an attribute of Wisdom, or an attribute of some other virtue?

Dear Spock,

my wife and I are not very opstimistic about my wisdom.

I guess each of the virtues you mention has much to do with knowledge.

But …

I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge

the love of Christ surpasses knowledge.

 

[pneuma07]

Are you suggesting that the virtues of Love and Wisdom are the one and the same? My thought is that they are not, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that Love is one of the Theological Virtues and Wisdom is one of the Intellectual Virtues.

My guess is that instead of saying Wisdom is Love, James is rather saying that the wise thing to do is love. That is, Wisdom teaches us how to love.

What’s your guess?

I am not suggesting Agape and Sophia are just the same.
i am rather suggesting that Love is wise, in itself, while Wisdom, although may be able to teach how to love, is not, in itself, loving.

I’d say that Love tests our deeds and thoughts.

See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will ( dilige et quod vis fac ): whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good. ( St. Augustine, Homily on 1 John, 7 )

True, that! Saint John the Apostle’s epistles also stress truth as much as love.

But this is what I wonder: If Love is the greatest of all virtues, then it is greater than Wisdom. Yet, the writer of Proverbs says nothing–which means, no thing, not even Love–compares to Wisdom.

For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

Now, either the author of Proverbs writes the truth or you do. From what I understand, the author, who was King Solomon, was called one of the wisest men who ever lived. And as Socrates himself once said:

A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.

(Theaetetus, 152)

This is my humble opinion. That being Wisdom as per 8:22-25 an entity which is before and over creation, the sentence in 8:10-11 is referred to creation.

Gold, silver , rubies cannot be compared with Wisdom. She is more precious than what is deemed precious within creation.

But that sentence cannot be assumed as an absolute. If Wisdom is before and over creation, she anyway comes from the Lord.
Would you desire Wisdom rather than the Lord Who made her ?

And we know God is Love and Truth

That’s a reason why IMHO Proverbs does not teach to prefer Wisdom to Love.

“But what about Saint Paul?” you might ask. “Doesn’t he speak the truth?”

“Yes, of course!” I’d respond, “but perhaps not the truth we think. For take a closer look at his words.”

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Here is the question you and I need to consider, P07: Does Saint Paul say Love is greatest of all, or does he say Love is “greatest of these”? (Please read the verse and tell me.)

Upon checking the Greek, I confirm Saint Paul says “greatest of these”.
Nothing is here explicitly stated about Sophia.

What I also invite to consider is the verse immediately preceding the so called hymn to Love. 1 Cor 12:31

American King James Version
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I to you a more excellent way.

American Standard Version
But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

Can we then say that the (excellent) way of Wisdom surpasses the way of Love ?

 

[Monte1945]

Monte:

sounds reasonable to me; but to what end is Faith a means?

God only knows if I am. I’m not sure myself. Though I’d like to be sure. Tell me, Monte, which virtue do you think is most likely to reveal to me the truth about whether I am a Catholic or not? Faith, Wisdom, or some other?

I do not think you are quite getting my point… but then I am not a teacher…

I am not trying to answer your questions… what I am trying to do is to
kind of give you some ways in which to seek the answers you are
seeking as I do not think there is one “encounter” with the Truth
of God. and what I have encountered, am encoutering or will encounter
might not be the same as what you or anyone might might…

Understand when I say truth I mean the Holy Spirit who is coming to
us daily and leading us into deeper truths as we give Him the faith
to do so.

Let me try to share more with you… please forgive my lack of being able to teaching
When I read the very familar and one of the most famous lines of scriptures:
Ephesians 2:8

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

I do not automatically read what some read… and think that this “gift” of God is your salvation only… but that your “faith” also can be a gift…

I feel that we all receive a certain amount of faith which opens our eyes to the spiritual part of ourselves. and we are given the wisdom of that degree of faith we have… but since one’s faith can develope then one’s wisdom can increase also…

We enter into the relationship with God as a child… and from there we grow from
what Grace we receive thoughout our christian life…
and from the Catholic Sacrament system, plus prayer and the word of God…

Since this can be very “intellectually” difficult there are some ways of the Catholic
church which are not that well known to outsiders but take in this point that they
have other means in order to grain, faith, wisdom and charity…

But from what you are writing. and again I am only guessing as I do not know exactly
what you are seeking when you write your questions… it seems to me, that you are seeking some certain “stamped in steel” or “carved in stone” answer but I do not
think there is any one answer for you…

As you grow in Faith, Grace and Wisdom you will be enlighten to more of the Truths
of God. whether they be certain establised doctrines of the church or whether as you
get to a certain state in your growth you will discover more of the your truths…

If one was to just seek scripture for their knowledge… one can turn to the book
of Wisdom…(makes sense doesn’t it… smile) and look at the first few chapters
and one can see, that in that book, it seems to indicate that the Grace of God
is the offical name for Wisdom… as wisdom is used as it’s name there.

But if one believes in a living God, and that God has called him/her today… then
there is a vocation for each person for today… in the here and now. And that
truth you will not find in “detail” in the scriptures. At sometime after you have
been exposed to the Grace of God you are going to have to apply it somewhere and some how within the people of your life…

In the cloistered life there is another means of looking at the bible and seeking
Truth… it is commonly called: contemplative prayer… which is much different
than lexio Devina, set prayers or liturgy that we have daily.

One begins with the faith and belief that within the Word of God, the lord Grace
is actually contained within it … and from reading his word, one is exposed to the Grace of
God. If one would open the bible and just read it, the Grace of God would
be transfered from the pages of scriputure into the soul of the reader.
The mystic would be caught up into the adstact and be beyond his perception
through his senses… There are Saints who have actually floated above the Alters.

There was a tradition during the history of the church that if there were
catholics and there was no priest to bring them the Eucharist… they
could read the bible for on half hour and it would be the same as
receiving the Eucharist…

Again I say… with all humidity as I can… that there will be different
degrees of faith, hope and charity in your life… and sometimes
you have to be built up to a certain level of faith to be able to
go on to your next level… As one of my friends Bro. Roderick
used to say to me, as my spiritual adviser in the Abbey of
Gethsemani in Trappist Ky…

“one does not buy one’s train ticket six months before they
go on a trip”… “one buys it when they are ready to step
up on that train”… “be relaxed and turn your knowledge over
to the Holy Spirit and when the time is “right” for you he will
let you know what you need to know for what you He wants
you to do”…

It worked for me… and I am still discovering new truths after
sixty years of faith.

Faith and knowledge come together… it is like fire, it gives
off light and heat at the same… we can not seperate the two…

Maybe at this time, you need more faith than knowledge and
when you have built up your faith some… maybe then He will
give you more knowledge…

But to be fair, maybe that knowledge will come to you here
and through those of us who reach out to you through our
own ways… God can reveal truth through other people. Yes?

I hope so…

 

[pneuma07]

And please, gentlemen, don’t misunderstand. I’m not asking for more of the same. We’ve all said many and majestic things about the virtues of the virtue of Love. That is all well and good, but it does not prove Solomon wrong. What we need is to beat him at his own game: He says nothing compares to Wisdom, so let’s compare Love to her and show him the truth! Let us fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because __________________________ .

One possible way we have to fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love ( 1 John 4)

In Christ
P7

 

[Monte1945]

I am not suggesting Agape and Sophia are just the same.
i am rather suggesting that Love is wise, in itself, while Wisdom, although may be able to teach how to love, is not, in itself, loving.

I’d say that Love tests our deeds and thoughts.

That’s a reason why IMHO Proverbs does not teach to prefer Wisdom to Love.

Upon checking the Greek, I confirm Saint Paul says “greatest of these”.
Nothing is here explicitly stated about Sophia.
What I also invite to consider is the verse immediately preceding the so called hymn to Love. 1 Cor 12:31

American King James Version
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I to you a more excellent way.

American Standard Version
But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

Can we then say that the (excellent) way of Wisdom surpasses the way of Love ?

Lets try this… Again, I say I am not a teacher or Religious but…

Jesus said, that when he left, he would send to us the Holy Spirit to live within
us… He also said, that He and the Father would make their home within us.
St. Peter wrote we would “partake of the divine nature of God” St.Paul wrote
that it was not he that did anything… but the “christ who lived within him”.

Thus we can say, The Trinity in all of his forms lives within us…

God is in us…And God IS love.

If we have God in us, then we have “love” in us…

Jesus said, “first make the tree good… and the fruit will be good there of”…

When we receive the Grace of God we receive another layer of God’s kind
of love and that love will bare out it’s fruit… I think that is what James
was saying… when he said… Show me your faith and I will show you my
works to so you will know I have faith"… Being that his works would
be “love” expressed…

It isn’t a matter of deciding on doing… it is reconizing that God is actually
working through you and your body… and we all are receving layers of
this love through the amounts of Grace we receive.
It is, knowing that you are receiving the nature of God in you now and
that nature as it grows will give you the sight and understanding of
your faith thus the love of God will come out from within you, if
you turn your Will over to him.

It is as St. Paul said… “it is not I,but the christ who lives in me”…

But what kind of vocation He wants to work through you (in what ways of love that will come out as) that no one else can tell you.

I knew a monk… he spent over fifty five years in the Monastery. He went in
as a teenager and never left. We were talking one day, and I asked him
what reasons did he have to become a monk and live that simple life
of silence and prayers. Which in that particular Monastery it was of the
most serious kind… total silence most of the time.
He told me, that he knew that he did not have the mind to do much.
He had joined the church and was reading his bible which told him

“the prayer of a rightous man does much”…

He considered the monastic life one which would keep most worldly temptations
from him. He would not be tempted to do many of the worldly things as there
wasn’t any of that in the Monastery.

He went into the monastery to pray one single prayer… his whole working day.

He prayed to God, that God would not end the world until all people could
get saved by God.

I do not know how effective his prayer is… but we know that with Moses
and Lot, that one person can change God’s mind about certain things.

And there might be maybe fifty men/women in the world who might be doing
as that brother did… pray for all to have salavation and not end the world.

and maybe just one of their prayers is being answered…

That was his act of love. How can one measure that depth of love?

To give up all the pleasures of a life that even a christian is allowed
to pray for the lost of the world…

When we give ourselves over to God’s Grace… you might think of
buckling up… as it might be a fast bumpy ride…

something to think about… yes?

 

[PJM]

=spockrates;6067967]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?

One cannot have Faith without Love!

One cannot have Hope without Love?

If you were ask me to give the message of the entire Bible in a single word…
THAT WORD WOULD BE “LOVE”:extrahappy:

 

[pneuma07]

Lets try this… Again, I say I am not a teacher or Religious but…

Jesus said, that when he left, he would send to us the Holy Spirit to live within
us… He also said, that He and the Father would make their home within us.
St. Peter wrote we would “partake of the divine nature of God” St.Paul wrote
that it was not he that did anything… but the “christ who lived within him”.

Thus we can say, The Trinity in all of his forms lives within us…

God is in us…And God IS love.

If we have God in us, then we have “love” in us…

Jesus said, “first make the tree good… and the fruit will be good there of”…

When we receive the Grace of God we receive another layer of God’s kind
of love and that love will bare out it’s fruit… I think that is what James
was saying… when he said… Show me your faith and I will show you my
works to so you will know I have faith"… Being that his works would
be “love” expressed…

It isn’t a matter of deciding on doing… it is reconizing that God is actually
working through you and your body… and we all are receving layers of
this love through the amounts of Grace we receive.
It is, knowing that you are receiving the nature of God in you now and
that nature as it grows will give you the sight and understanding of
your faith thus the love of God will come out from within you, if
you turn your Will over to him.

It is as St. Paul said… “it is not I,but the christ who lives in me”…

But what kind of vocation He wants to work through you (in what ways of love that will come out as) that no one else can tell you.

I knew a monk… he spent over fifty five years in the Monastery. He went in
as a teenager and never left. We were talking one day, and I asked him
what reasons did he have to become a monk and live that simple life
of silence and prayers. Which in that particular Monastery it was of the
most serious kind… total silence most of the time.
He told me, that he knew that he did not have the mind to do much.
He had joined the church and was reading his bible which told him

“the prayer of a rightous man does much”…

He considered the monastic life one which would keep most worldly temptations
from him. He would not be tempted to do many of the worldly things as there
wasn’t any of that in the Monastery.

He went into the monastery to pray one single prayer… his whole working day.

He prayed to God, that God would not end the world until all people could
get saved by God.

I do not know how effective his prayer is… but we know that with Moses
and Lot, that one person can change God’s mind about certain things.

And there might be maybe fifty men/women in the world who might be doing
as that brother did… pray for all to have salavation and not end the world.

and maybe just one of their prayers is being answered…

That was his act of love. How can one measure that depth of love?

To give up all the pleasures of a life that even a christian is allowed
to pray for the lost of the world…

When we give ourselves over to God’s Grace… you might think of
buckling up… as it might be a fast bumpy ride…

something to think about… yes?

Definitely.

You have great experiences to share with us.

BTW Welcome to CAF Monte1945 !

P7

 

[spockrates]

Wisdom is not the accumulation of knowledge, but rather the understanding and measurement of knowledge against an underlying principle.

Sounds wise to me, James!



If Wisdom were the quantity of knowledge one had, then, I suppose, computer savvy kids, today, would be wiser than Solomon, in some ways!

Yet, God clearly says Solomon was the wisest man who ever was and ever will be:

The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for [wisdom]. So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.”

(1 Kings 3:10-12)

So I think you are correct in saying that wisdom is “the understanding and measurement of knowledge against an underlying principle.” For, although Solomon knows less truth than my young son knows about sending text messages or playing video games, he is not wiser than Solomon. Hence, wisdom might not the quantity of knowledge, but the quality of the ability to discern the truth about the knowledge one has–whether it be a limited or extensive amount of knowledge.

With this in mind, I’d like to propose an addition to your definition of Wisdom:

Wisdom = the ability–whether God-given, or natural–to understand whether knowledge is true or false, and the same ability to measure such knowledge against an underlying and principle.

Christian Wisdom = the ability–whether God-given, or natural–to understand whether knowledge about a spiritual or moral matter is true or false, and the same ability to measure such knowlede against an underlying and true principle of Love.

Do you agree with this definition and do you hope, as I do, that the God who is all-knowing has revealed this wisdom to us?

For the Christian that principle is Love. Therefore nothing can be called Christian Wisdom unless it stems from and returns to Love.

When I ponder the words “stems from,” what comes to mind is the effect of something. From a seed (the cause) comes the stem (the effect). What stems from your words, then, is the idea that Love is the cause of all Christian Wisdom. But if this is true, then Wisdom can never be the cause of Love, for reason tells me that an effect can never be the cause of it’s own cause.

But something makes me wonder whether what you say is true. Please answer me this one question: Is Love the same as fear?

St John tells us that God is Love
Jesus tells us that All of the Law and All of the Prophets are based on Love
St Paul tells us that Love is the Greatest of the Gifts and indeed without Love nothing else matters.

Yes, but you and I determined that what St. John meant was NOT that Love is God, but that God is perfectly and fully loving. You and I also agreed that God is perfectly and fully wise. Therefore, God is BOTH Love and Wisdom; isn’t He?

Love is how we measure and understand all other “Laws” and “rules”.
Look at Mt Chapter 5.
Jesus talks about a number of rules and then expands those rules to include, not just actions, but thoughts.
Why?
Because Love of God and neighbor requires it.
If I Think to steal from my neighbor and then do it, I have sinned twice.
Why?
Because the thought is a sin against God’s Love.
The Action is a sin agianst our neighbor which is also a sin against God.

All of our thoughts, All of our actions either bring us closer to - or further away from God. Love is the measure. Without Love, without Love being our worldview, we have no wisdom.

Peace
James

Is Love how we measure, or is Love the measure we use? My thought is that Love is principle. Wisdom is the means by which we understand the principle. Otherwise, why would James advise us to pray for Wisdom to understand Love?

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

 

[JRKH]

Sounds wise to me, James!



If Wisdom were the quantity of knowledge one had, then, I suppose, computer savvy kids, today, would be wiser than Solomon, in some ways!

Yet, God clearly says Solomon was the wisest man who ever was and ever will be:

The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for [wisdom]. So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.”

(1 Kings 3:10-12)

So I think you are correct in saying that wisdom is “the understanding and measurement of knowledge against an underlying principle.” For, although Solomon knows less truth than my young son knows about sending text messages or playing video games, he is not wiser than Solomon. Hence, wisdom might not the quantity of knowledge, but the quality of the ability to discern the truth about the knowledge one has–whether it be a limited or extensive amount of knowledge.

With this in mind, I’d like to propose an addition to your definition of Wisdom:

Wisdom = the ability–whether God-given, or natural–to understand whether knowledge is true or false, and the same ability to measure such knowledge against an underlying and principle.

Christian Wisdom = the ability–whether God-given, or natural–to understand whether knowledge about a spiritual or moral matter is true or false, and the same ability to measure such knowlede against an underlying and true principle of Love.

Do you agree with this definition and do you hope, as I do, that the God who is all-knowing has revealed this wisdom to us?

I would agree with the above definitions with one change. All true wisdom comes from God through Love. This is always “God given” and not natural, because natural will nearly always mean “selfish” which is not God’s Wisdom.

When I ponder the words “stems from,” what comes to mind is the effect of something. From a seed (the cause) comes the stem (the effect). What stems from your words, then, is the idea that Love is the cause of all Christian Wisdom. But if this is true, then Wisdom can never be the cause of Love, for reason tells me that an effect can never be the cause of it’s own cause.

But something makes me wonder whether what you say is true. Please answer me this one question: Is Love the same as fear?

No but they are also not mutually excusive. If I love someone I also “fear” offending them since I “fear” damaging the relationship. So - if we say that “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom”, we can see that by fearing to give offence to God, we are showing our Love for Him. Such fear may begin as a servile fear, and usually does, but as we grow in Gods Wisdom, fear lessens and Love grows.

Yes, but you and I determined that what St. John meant was NOT that Love is God, but that God is perfectly and fully loving. You and I also agreed that God is perfectly and fully wise. Therefore, God is BOTH Love and Wisdom; isn’t He?

Yes God is both Love and Wisdom in that He is the sourse of Both.
But we must always be careful not to try and turn the equation around, for that opens up too much danger of misunderstanding.
God may be Wisdom (the source of true wisdom) but it does not follow that Wisdom (or what I think is wise) is always of God.

Is Love how we measure, or is Love the measure we use? My thought is that Love is principle. Wisdom is the means by which we understand the principle. Otherwise, why would James advise us to pray for Wisdom to understand Love?

If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

(James 1:5)

If I ask someone for a car. Do they give me only the keys? No they give both the keys AND the car. When James says we should ask God for Wisdom, then God, who knows that Wisdom without Love is worthless, will Give both in proper time and measure.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

Sorry, all. A crisis at home and project at work kept me away.

 

[spockrates]

Let’s see. Where were we before I so rudely left us all hanging? The current challenge facing us, in my estimation, is this:

Well, gentlemen, I fear you all now fear there is no defense left for Love. Solomon, the wisest man the world has ever know, has spoken. How can we match wits with him? But let us not desert her, as Jesus’ disciples deserted Him, and fled like cowardice curs with their tails between their legs, at His most darkest hour! Let us heed Socrates’ admonition:

And do not say you cannot answer. Be brave, like a man, and if God is willing, you will be able to answer.

(Theaetetus, 151)

Take heart! Love is certainly worthy of all the courage we can muster in her defense, for she is how God first loved us! So let us rise to this formidable challenge against her honor made by the so-called wisest man who ever lived. Let us put our heads together and consider how even the wise king might be mistaken in claiming there is no comparison between the Love we love and the Wisdom he espouses. If Solomon is in error when he accuses her, saying,

For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.

(Proverbs 8:11)

then surely, or perhaps ironically, Wisdom will prove him wrong! Now, I think it right to say that Saint Paul’s words in the Love chapter of the Bible are not enough to prove Solomon’s saying a slander against her. For the Apostle merely states that Love is greater than Faith and Hope.

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

But surely this is not all the Bible has to say about the unsurpassed beauty and desirability of our lady Love? Come now; speak up, men! Tell Solomon why, on this occasion, he is mistaken. Answer how Love is greater than even his prized gift from God, the woman Wisdom.

 

[spockrates]

The method I proposed to meet the challenge is this:

And please, gentlemen, don’t misunderstand. I’m not asking for more of the same. We’ve all said many and majestic things about the virtues of the virtue of Love. That is all well and good, but it does not prove Solomon wrong. What we need is to beat him at his own game: He says nothing compares to Wisdom, so let’s compare Love to her and show him the truth! Let us fill in the blank:

Love is greater than Wisdom because __________________________ .

 

[spockrates]

I would say no. The personification of Wisdom in the Old Testament “IS” the person of Jesus Christ himself. If you plug Him into your post it would read: “nothing you desire compares with [Jesus].” Does this not mean that the Love God gives does not compare with the Son He gave you and I?

If you carry the personification idea to the limit, the Love of 1 Cor 13 would have to be a the Father. In the Trinity He is the greatest as love is the greatest in relation to faith and hope. But I really don’t think Paul is personifying love in this way at all. He is talking about attributes and wisdom is nothing without love.

And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

Well, Ryan, a Jehovah’s Witness once used the same argument with me, but with a different aim. She quoted this passage:

"The LORD brought me [Wisdom] forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

I was appointed [d] from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

(Proverbs 8:22-26)

She claimed that, since Wisdom is Jesus, then he was created by Jehovah God, and not the uncreated Jehovah God. My response to her was that Wisdom is called a woman, not a man, so how could the Son of God be a woman?

Does not wisdom call out?
Does not understanding raise her voice?

(Proverbs 8:1)

So, I suppose, Ryan, I should ask you the same question.

 

[spockrates]

Dear Spock,

my wife and I are not very opstimistic about my wisdom.

I guess each of the virtues you mention has much to do with knowledge.

But …

I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge

the love of Christ surpasses knowledge.

LOL! And my wife makes no bones about saying I’m a bone head! I suppose I’m like the Father of Philosophy Socrates, that way, in that I have no Wisdom of my own, but only the ability to exact truth from others.



Yes, I quite agree with the wise Apostle that to know the love of Christ surpasses all knowledge. Tell me, P07, what do you think is better–to be loved by Christ, or to merely know about the love of Christ without ever receiving such love?

 

[spockrates]

I am not suggesting Agape and Sophia are just the same.
i am rather suggesting that Love is wise, in itself, while Wisdom, although may be able to teach how to love, is not, in itself, loving. …

Whoa! Let’s take it one premise at a time, please! I’m feeling like a wimpy kid being pelted by snowballs from every direction. I’ll never become wise about Love that way. So, have pity on me for being so slow, and help me consider your first thought in this post.

You are saying that Love is wise. I suppose you might also agree that Wisdom is loving. And, no doubt, you would agree that Love is loving. Logically, this does not appear to be sound. Please consider the logic:

If

L = Love

and

g = loving

and

W = wisdom

and

e = wise

then

L = e

and

W = e

and

L = g

and

W = g

therefore,

since

g = g

and

e = e

then

W = L

In other words, you are saying that the virtues of Love and Wisdom are, indeed the same. But Love and Wisdom are not possibly one and the same virtue, so how can Love be wise?