S
spockrates
Guest
Is the beginning really Faith, Monte, or does another virtue precede her? Consider an atheist who converts to Catholicism: Is Faith the very first step to her conversion?
- Status
S
spockrates
Guest
Perhaps you are correct, Monte. Perhaps what I need is not reason but religion. Tell me, please, what does religion tell you is the virtue that reveals the truth to someone like me? Is the revealer of truth Faith, Hope, Love, Justice, or Wisdom?
Once again, I’m grateful that a wise seminary student, or graduate, like yourself is taking the time to share his wisdom with me. Thank you!
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, I see the wisdom in that, James! The wise thing to do, if indeed Wisdom tells one that there is a God who is loving, is to imitate Him.
Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
(Ephesians 5:1-2)
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, James, I agree that truth and love are the goals I personally should seek. The virtue that achieves love is, of course, Love. Would you say that the virtue that achieves an understanding of the truth is Wisdom?
S
spockrates
Guest
Welcome to the discussion, P07; glad you chose to join us!Hi Spock !
Beautiful thread.Here are a couple of cents from a lurker.
Here is Wisdom speaking.
Prov 8
"The LORD begot me, the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago;
23
6 From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no fountains or springs of water;
25 Before the mountains were settled into place, before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet the earth and the fields were not made, nor the first clods of the world.
27 "When he established the heavens I was there, when he marked out the vault over the face of the deep;
28 When he made firm the skies above, when he fixed fast the foundations of the earth;
29 When he set for the sea its limit, so that the waters should not transgress his command;
30 Then was I beside him as his craftsman, and I was his delight day by day, Playing before him all the while,
31 playing on the surface of his earth; and I found delight in the sons of men
That is really magnificent and stunning. And we can see Wisdom putting itself ( herself/himself ?)
as a reality which is so to say between God and the created world, as a firstborn, even a co-worker in the project of creation. I guess a more precise reading depends on how the verbs in verses 22-23,
here presented as “begot” and “poured fourth” are translated.
Interesting choice of words the wise King Solomon uses:
“The LORD begot me [Wisdom], the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago. From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.”
(Proverbs 8:22-23)
In ancient Jewish understanding, the word first-born can mean “the first who was born,” or it can mean “the one who is most prominent or important,” or both. Do you think Solomon, in all his God-given wisdom, was saying that Wisdom was both the first virtue, and also the most important virtue, God expressed?
S
spockrates
Guest
Thank you for your prayers–I desire them almost as much as I desire Love and Wisdom!…
But you’re asking what we should desire more between Wisdom and Love.
1 John 4
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
Now God IS love. While we can wonder how we can love what we do not know,
this perspective seems upset by 1 John. If you love you know God. If I don’t love I don’t know Him.
How can I say I have faith in God , if I do not know Him ? (I’d agree BTW that faith shall be no more in Heaven
Heb 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen )
And now about wisdom.
Nothing in creation is comparable.
But for sure we do not have to desire wisdom more than God. And God is Love. ( we wouldn’t say God is Faith or Hope I guess, BTW, which perhaps helps us in understanding why Love is the greatest of these)
Or it can maybe be put better like this:
where is my wisdom, if I do not know God ?
Isn’t then loving the supreme wisdom ?
PS You and your wife are in my prayers Spock. May the day come that she is reconciled with the Church.
Merry Christmas !
Yes, God is Love. But Jesus was God in the flesh, and He said this:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14:6)
Isn’t it true that God is both Love and Truth? And if Love is the virtue that helps us act like God, then what is the virtue that helps us think, and understand the truth, like God?
S
spockrates
Guest
Great words of wisdom, everyone! Thank you, each of you, for taking time during the Christmas holiday to give the gift of your wise counsel!
M
Monte1945
Guest
I think some kind of “foundation” is needed here prior to someone else joining in onPerhaps you are correct, Monte. Perhaps what I need is not reason but religion. Tell me, please, what does religion tell you is the virtue that reveals the truth to someone like me? Is the revealer of truth Faith, Hope, Love, Justice, or Wisdom?
Once again, I’m grateful that a wise seminary student, or graduate, like yourself is taking the time to share his wisdom with me. Thank you!
you attempt to grasp the knowledge which you “seem” to be seeking.
The first thought which comes too me, from your post regarding this particular subject.
Is that you need to focus on the point… of:
Is there one Truth for all of us or is there a Truth for each of us?"
When I ask that, I ask it from the understanding that each of us in the Kingdom
Of Heaven here on earth has a particular vocation to fulfill from God’s plan for us.
God might reveal to you a particular Wisdom for you. And that particular wisdom might not be the same wisdom for me.
I do not think that God set up some kind of program where we all just follow some
rules and act in the same manner.
You have your vocation to fulfill and I have mine and everyone else has theirs.
We might all go to the same source of obtaining the Grace of God but we all
have a different “call” to answer too.
All of these subjects which you are asking about come in degrees… Each of us
has our own set of degrees to comprehend from our abilities to comprehend them.
We all have to seek and find that which we are meant to do with the same kind
of “agape” love coming from within us… after we have received it from Him.
There is a purpose for your relationship with God from his design. You must find Him
to find your true self. You are yet to be who you are meant to be.
Faith, hope, charity, virtues, are like the little wheels and gears in watches which
cause the watch to “be” what it was designed to be which is: “it tells the time”.
You can take the watch apart and study it, but if you take it apart and put the pieces
on a table and you did not know what each part was part of. you would never guess
it. You would have to take the pieces to the designer and have Him put it together
and show you what it is. Such is your Faith walk… you are finding the pieces of
the whole and you need to go to the one who designed you and in order to find
what you are to be… The virutes, Wisdom, Faith, Charity are just the pieces
of that which you need to become part of in order to “be”…
The Catholic faith looks at what she believes is the function of God to His people
in a completely different manner than the non-catholic… and this difference is
very important… From some of your posts, I sense more non-catholic thinking
than catholic.
Non-catholics think, that when Adam and Eve sinned it damaged part of their
humanity. In some denominations it is a doctrine of what they call “The total
depravity of Man”… Mankind’s humanity is damaged and they are under
sin because of it. He himself can not do anything to get out from under that
current state of condemnation. To find and have faith erases that condemnation.
It is where man is always under the “mercy” of God which makes him presentable
to God as “saved”… this all happens in an instant of repentence form the new
believer.
The catholic faith teaches that man’s nature is not damaged from the Original
Sin of Adam and Eve’s. And the only result of their sin was that the Grace
of God which he had put into them at their creation was removed…
Not a damaged humanity but one which was now missing something.
When Jesus died on the cross… he merited for us the right to receive that
missing Grace but not to receive it all at once. We have to work out
our Salvation by allowing the love of God, (God’s Grace) to come into
us and take us from being a child in Christ to being an adult through
what catholics call the Sacraments and prayer. We are all seeking that
what we are to become. There can be many different vocations for us
in different places throughout our lives.
Faith is trusting in God that what he tells us to do with our lives
is our purpose and call… it is a means to the end… We are
to trust in Him and allow his kind of love (agape) to flow through
us to the people in our lives through out our lives.
Faith is the pipe from which the Grace of God flows into us in order
to create the new creature in us. So that we might get ourselves
together spiritually and become “who” he wants us to be.
Faith is the means to the end…
Faith not the end which the non-catholics believe…
I am not saying you are not a catholic. but some of your posts
seem to indicate you are placing it out of it’s proper place from
a catholic point of view… or at least, from my catholic point of view.
( I am always willing to be corrected)
M
Monte1945
Guest
Religion for me, is the means to receive my share of the Grace of God.Perhaps you are correct, Monte. Perhaps what I need is not reason but religion. Tell me, please, what does religion tell you is the virtue that reveals the truth to someone like me? Is the revealer of truth Faith, Hope, Love, Justice, or Wisdom?
Once again, I’m grateful that a wise seminary student, or graduate, like yourself is taking the time to share his wisdom with me. Thank you!
My developement of God’s Virtues is my witness of God to the people
I come in contact with. It is the love of God which flows through me
to others.
Do not misunderstand my attempt to post thoughts to you… for any other
purpose than to give you thoughts to think about. I do not feel I have the wisdom
you need. Wisdom, faith, hope, love and justice must come from God to you
directly.
It is as St. Paul said: I plant the seed, Appolo waters it… but God ads the increase"
I can not agree with you as to being a wise man… I am an old man. I have lived
this christian life through many different positions and tried to do what I felt
was what God wanted me to do… at least I lived most of my life connected
through my faith and the Sacraments of the Chruch attempting to do undestand
not only what he wanted me do, but in trying to do it also… I can not say that
I did all that I thought he wanted me to do… I did more than I would have if I had
not been connected to Him, but far less than I should have done.
My knowledge was what I discovered in my walk of Faith thorughout my life up
to this time and I do not know if the truths I discovered and still are discovering
would be the knowledge which might help you to find yourself.
Each of us has been designed a bit different than the other…
an example might make it a bit clearer…
When I was a novice within one of the monasteries of the Cistercians of the Strict Observance many years ago…
We had a weekly function we could attend… Six or eight of us would join in
and sit around a large wooden table. One of the Monks would have a verse
of scripture to read out loud. He would read it. We would take at least ten
minutes of meditation on that particular scripture. Then we would take
a piece of paper and write what we felt God was telling us through
it.
We would fold the paper and place it in a large wooden bowl that was then
passed around. The leader of the group, would take each of the papers
and read it out loud to the rest of us…
Never once in those years of attending that group did two of those papers
read of the same view… and none of them contradicted each other.
People here and myself can only give to you what God has given to
us… whether those answers will be your answers is impossible
to know. I can not tell you how to feel about those issues you are
seeking answers too. I can only give to you what answers God gave
to me for me.
I do not believe that we all are to see the Truths of God as the same.
It is the same source we go too, liturgy, scriptures and I might add
sometimes through others that God can make his Will for us known.
I am saying. I will try and give to you what those issue mean to me
and for you to consider them. but please do not feel that my responses
are something I want you to think, if you do not accept them you are wrong.
After many years of attempting to live out my the gift of Faith which God
has given me… I am ten thousand times more humble than I was sixty
years ago.
P
pneuma07
Guest
Dear Spock,Welcome to the discussion, P07; glad you chose to join us!
Interesting choice of words the wise King Solomon uses:
“The LORD begot me [Wisdom], the first-born of his ways, the forerunner of his prodigies of long ago. From of old I was poured forth, at the first, before the earth.”
(Proverbs 8:22-23)
In ancient Jewish understanding, the word first-born can mean “the first who was born,” or it can mean “the one who is most prominent or important,” or both. Do you think Solomon, in all his God-given wisdom, was saying that Wisdom was both the first virtue, and also the most important virtue, God expressed?
Code:
for the little I can say, out of the seven Wisdom Literature books in the OT, the most direct expositions are in Proverbs 8 and Wisdom 7. It would seem IMHO that we have a reality which is somehow in the middle between God and creation.Some commentators dare to speak about a sort of “incarnation”.
In Ephesians 3, then, we see Paul dealing with several of the virtues under our present scrutiny:
you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12In him and through** faith **in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through** faith**. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in** love**, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the** love **of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
It seems we, and heavenly realms, can get God’s Wisdom, or aspects of it, through the Church.
Jesus can dwell in us through Faith.
If rooted in Love, we may have power to know His Love that surpasses knowledge.
Form this amazing passage too, it looks like Agape is greatest.
P
pneuma07
Guest
Paul, we saw, teaches that it is by being rooted in love that we can know His Love.Thank you for your prayers–I desire them almost as much as I desire Love and Wisdom!
Yes, God is Love. But Jesus was God in the flesh, and He said this:
“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
(John 14:6)
Isn’t it true that God is both Love and Truth? And if Love is the virtue that helps us act like God, then what is the virtue that helps us think, and understand the truth, like God?
Let’s also listen to James ( ch. 3)
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
Could we say that James is telling us that Sophia without Agape is dead, or, putting it in other words, that Agape is what tests Sophia, just as it tests Pistis (Faith), or that what we need is a Wisdom acting in love ?
O r could you also say that Wisdom tests Love, and that we need a Love acting in Wisdom ?
Nevertheless, isn’t Agape wise in itself ?Since your thoughts are on Agape and Truth here, it looks like you are on a similar path of meditations as B16, who, as we know, wrote an encyclical by the title Caritas in Veritate ( Agape in Truth).
He appears concerned by social aspects too, but his first chapter can maybe be appropriately quoted in the present context:
*
- Charity in truth, to which Jesus Christ bore witness by his earthly life and especially by his death and resurrection, is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. Love — caritas — is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. It is a force that has its origin in God, Eternal Love and Absolute Truth. Each person finds his good by adherence to God’s plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). All people feel the interior impulse to love authentically: love and truth never abandon them completely, because these are the vocation planted by God in the heart and mind of every human person. The search for love and truth is purified and liberated by Jesus Christ from the impoverishment that our humanity brings to it, and he reveals to us in all its fullness the initiative of love and the plan for true life that God has prepared for us. In Christ, charity in truth becomes the Face of his Person, a vocation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the truth of his plan. Indeed, he himself is the Truth (cf. Jn 14:6).*
God is Love and is Truth.
We could say we can get nearer to know the Truth that is God through Wisdom ( we saw above how strict the connection between Christ and divine Wisdom is considered).
But we could also say we get nearer to know the Love that is God through Love.
Then Love is both the supreme reality we are called to approach and the means by which we can approach it.
Can this one be a reason why Love is greatest ?
If so, we could probably say that nothing compares to Love.
In Christ
P7
J
Jerok
Guest
Charity, one of the 3 theological virtues, (faith, hope, charity) is the love of friendship of God, the virtue of Charity perfects the will to love God as He Is, the ultimate end.
There can be no true virtues without charity (love). To be a true virtue it must be ordered to God as He Is (God must be the ultimate end), and it is through charity that this takes place.Hence, all virtues must be infused by charity (done out of love for God) or they are only partial virtues and are unable to unite us to God (save us).
One could speak of charity as the form of the virtues - for instance an act of fortitude takes the form of an act of love for God. An act of faith or hope is the same.
Likewise, one does not properly follow the law without charity, for loves fulfills the law.
This is from my Christian Moral Life class
There can be no true virtues without charity (love). To be a true virtue it must be ordered to God as He Is (God must be the ultimate end), and it is through charity that this takes place.Hence, all virtues must be infused by charity (done out of love for God) or they are only partial virtues and are unable to unite us to God (save us).
One could speak of charity as the form of the virtues - for instance an act of fortitude takes the form of an act of love for God. An act of faith or hope is the same.
Likewise, one does not properly follow the law without charity, for loves fulfills the law.
This is from my Christian Moral Life class
S
spockrates
Guest
Hey, Monte, P07, et. al:
I’ve been incapacitated with a bad case of the stomach flue, so I’m sorry for not responding. I will read your replies and respond, soon. Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
I’ve been incapacitated with a bad case of the stomach flue, so I’m sorry for not responding. I will read your replies and respond, soon. Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
S
spockrates
Guest
Ryan and James:
I’m looking forward to hearing more of your replies, too.
I’m looking forward to hearing more of your replies, too.
J
JRKH
Guest
Forgive my tardyness in responding.
I would rather say that the correct understanding of Truth is Wisdom. One achieves such Wisdom through Love. That is to say by looking at things through the eyes of Love for God and fellow man.
Peace
James
S
spockrates
Guest
Monte:
I suppose I’d answer that there is both. Truth is one, in regard to doctrine, but truth is also many, in regard to application, or perhaps practice. For example, consider the words of Christ, “Take, eat. This is my body, which is given up for you.” There is one truth regarding Jesus words. There cannot be many truths. For instance, it cannot be true that the Eucharist is His body and also true that it is not His body. Such doctrine, I believe, is black and white–there is only one truth.
The application of such, however, has many shades. Do only priests ordained by the Catholic Church have the ability to consecrate this sacrament, or is such possible, in rare circumstances, by those Protestant ministers outside the Catholic Church? Does one have to receive the bread and wine to receive eternal life, or are there some exceptions to this rule? Is one required to receive the Eucharist twice a year, or 12 times a year, or 52 times a year, or more to receive eternal life? In the case of application, there might be several, varying truths relative to each individual.
Sounds reasonable to me; but to what end is Faith a means?
God only knows if I am. I’m not sure myself. Though I’d like to be sure. Tell me, Monte, which virtue do you think is most likely to reveal to me the truth about whether I am a Catholic or not? Faith, Wisdom, or some other?
S
spockrates
Guest
Yes, if the seeds you are planting are truth, then, perhaps, Wisdom is the virtue by which I comprehend such truth. If *that *is what you mean, then I agree that I need divine assistance to make good use of the seeds you throw my way. I need Wisdom, or the divine ability to comprehend, what you tell me.
Do you think this is what James meant?
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.
(James 1:5)
S
spockrates
Guest
Thank you, P07 for those words of wisdom. I hope God will grant you more wisdom to answer this question: Is “the power to know” an attribute of Faith, or an attribute of Love, or an attribute of Wisdom, or an attribute of some other virtue?Dear Spock,
For the little I can say, out of the seven Wisdom Literature books in the OT, the most direct expositions are in Proverbs 8 and Wisdom 7. It would seem IMHO that we have a reality which is somehow in the middle between God and creation.
It would be interesting being able to explore the christologic key TO Wisdom we have in St. Paul, from 1 Cor 1:24-30, to Col 1:15:17. Is Wisdom in Proverb 8 or Wisdom 7 a real foreshadow of trinitarian relationships, or just a possibly useful type of it ?
Some commentators dare to speak about a sort of “incarnation”.
In Ephesians 3, then, we see Paul dealing with several of the virtues under our present scrutiny:
you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8Although I am less than the least of all God’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12In him and through** faith **in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through** faith**. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in** love**, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the** love **of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
It seems we, and heavenly realms, can get God’s Wisdom, or aspects of it, through the Church. Jesus can dwell in us through Faith. If rooted in Love, we may have power to know His Love that surpasses knowledge.
Form this amazing passage too, it looks like Agape is greatest.
S
spockrates
Guest
Are you suggesting that the virtues of Love and Wisdom are the one and the same? My thought is that they are not, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church indicates that Love is one of the Theological Virtues and Wisdom is one of the Intellectual Virtues.Paul, we saw, teaches that it is by being rooted in love that we can know His Love.
Let’s also listen to James ( ch. 3)
13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.
Could we say that James is telling us that Sophia without Agape is dead, or, putting it in other words, that Agape is what tests Sophia, just as it tests Pistis (Faith), or that what we need is a Wisdom acting in love ?
O r could you also say that Wisdom tests Love, and that we need a Love acting in Wisdom ?
My guess is that instead of saying Wisdom is Love, James is rather saying that the wise thing to do is love. That is, Wisdom teaches us how to love.
What’s your guess?
True, that! Saint John the Apostle’s epistles also stress truth as much as love.Since your thoughts are on Agape and Truth here, it looks like you are on a similar path of meditations as B16, who, as we know, wrote an encyclical by the title Caritas in Veritate ( Agape in Truth).
He appears concerned by social aspects too, but his first chapter can maybe be appropriately quoted in the present context:
*
Same quotation from John as you here !
- Charity in truth, to which Jesus Christ bore witness by his earthly life and especially by his death and resurrection, is the principal driving force behind the authentic development of every person and of all humanity. Love — caritas — is an extraordinary force which leads people to opt for courageous and generous engagement in the field of justice and peace. It is a force that has its origin in God, Eternal Love and Absolute Truth. Each person finds his good by adherence to God’s plan for him, in order to realize it fully: in this plan, he finds his truth, and through adherence to this truth he becomes free (cf. Jn 8:32). To defend the truth, to articulate it with humility and conviction, and to bear witness to it in life are therefore exacting and indispensable forms of charity. Charity, in fact, “rejoices in the truth” (1 Cor 13:6). All people feel the interior impulse to love authentically: love and truth never abandon them completely, because these are the vocation planted by God in the heart and mind of every human person. The search for love and truth is purified and liberated by Jesus Christ* from the impoverishment that our humanity brings to it, and he reveals to us in all its fullness the initiative of love and the plan for true life that God has prepared for us. In Christ, charity in truth becomes the Face of his Person, a vocation for us to love our brothers and sisters in the truth of his plan. Indeed, he himself is the Truth (cf. Jn 14:6).
God is Love and is Truth.
But this is what I wonder: If Love is the greatest of all virtues, then it is greater than Wisdom. Yet, the writer of Proverbs says nothing–which means, no thing, not even Love–compares to Wisdom.We could say we can get nearer to know the Truth that is God through Wisdom ( we saw above how strict the connection between Christ and divine Wisdom is considered).
But we could also say we get nearer to know the Love that is God through Love.
Then Love is both the supreme reality we are called to approach and the means by which we can approach it.
Can this one be a reason why Love is greatest ?
If so, we could probably say that nothing compares to Love.
In Christ
P7
For wisdom is more precious than rubies,
and nothing you desire can compare with her.
(Proverbs 8:11)
Now, either the author of Proverbs writes the truth or you do. From what I understand, the author, who was King Solomon, was called one of the wisest men who ever lived. And as Socrates himself once said:
A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.
(Theaetetus, 152)
“But what about Saint Paul?” you might ask. “Doesn’t he speak the truth?”
“Yes, of course!” I’d respond, “but perhaps not the truth we think. For take a closer look at his words.”
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
(1 Corinthians 13:13)
Here is the question you and I need to consider, P07: Does Saint Paul say Love is greatest of all, or does he say Love is “greatest of these”? (Please read the verse and tell me.)
S
spockrates
Guest
Hey, Jerok, thanks for stopping by the discussion! Do you plan to stay awhile, or just post and go? If you plan to stay, let me know, and I’ll post a reply.Charity, one of the 3 theological virtues, (faith, hope, charity) is the love of friendship of God, the virtue of Charity perfects the will to love God as He Is, the ultimate end.
There can be no true virtues without charity (love). To be a true virtue it must be ordered to God as He Is (God must be the ultimate end), and it is through charity that this takes place.Hence, all virtues must be infused by charity (done out of love for God) or they are only partial virtues and are unable to unite us to God (save us).
One could speak of charity as the form of the virtues - for instance an act of fortitude takes the form of an act of love for God. An act of faith or hope is the same.
Likewise, one does not properly follow the law without charity, for loves fulfills the law.
This is from my Christian Moral Life class
- Status