Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

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pneuma07 said:
Dear Spock,
Code: 
  I guess linguistic research could be at least as helpful to us as logic, at this particular point.
"For wisdom<02451>is better<02896>than<04480>jewels<06443>; And all<03605>desirable<02656>things<02656>cannot<03808>compare<07737>with her.

Our key word *chephets * is that number 02656, here translated, or maybe approximated, as “desirable things”.

Solutions 1) and 2) seem to imply the verse reads “nothing compares” .

The above approximation would sound “no desirable thing compares”.

What are more precisely these “desirable things” , this chephets, which is in other passages translated as “delight” or “pleasure” ?
Click to expand...
Good question!

👍
pneuma07 said:
My guess is that we can understand that wisdom does not belong to the field of the “desirable things” or “pleasant things” as meant here. Maybe we’re precisely told wisdom is on another level. As if we were told “Put yourself on another level, change attitude. Do not ask for the things the world looks for, that attract your eyes, or your greed, or your proud”

Nothing more than a conjectural feeling of mine. 🙂
I repeat we need help from a biblist, telling us what our key word can most likely really mean here.

If we cannot get this decisive help, I remain quite satisfied with this conjecture.

And I thank you and every contributor for this beautiful thread. 👍

See you on CAF.
P7
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Yes, the help of someone who understands Hebrew would greatly assist us! Let’s see if God brings such a one to share Wisdom of the Jewish language with us at this discussion thread:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6187472#post6187472
 
pneuma07 said:
… Nothing more than a conjectural feeling of mine. 🙂
I repeat we need help from a biblist, telling us what our key word can most likely really mean here.

If we cannot get this decisive help, I remain quite satisfied with this conjecture.

And I thank you and every contributor for this beautiful thread. 👍

See you on CAF.
P7
Click to expand...
Perhaps it is our fate to remain guessing, but my hope for you is that of Socrates’ expectation for his friend:

Rather God will tell you, if there be any God who will listen to my prayers.

(Philebus)

And I suppose we’d be wise to explore other possible explanations of Solomon’s words of wisdom about Wisdom, for I firmly believe that one, as Socrates said, ought to be one who:

… in the first enthusiasm of his joy … leaves no stone, or rather no thought, unturned.

(Philebus)

🙂
 
http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/turn-me-over.jpg

P7:

At this point in the contest of Olympic proportions we judges of the competitors believe *Love *(or rather selfless Love) to be the greatest of virtues. Wisdom, it seems likely, we will proclaim second greatest. And since all virtues that are not Love are either examples of Wisdom, Faith, or Hope, I’d dare say *Faith *is in third place, for she is more certain than Hope, which can only have great expectations for some good, but does not know with certainty.

I suppose we might now hand out the medals, and give Love the gold, Wisdom the silver, and Faith the bronze. But one of the judges (Solomon, who God proclaims the wisest of all) bids us to carefully consider whether Wisdom deserves the gold.


  1. *]Solomon was mistaken in saying nothing compares to Wisdom, or
    *]You and I are mistaken in saying that nothing compares to Love, or
    *]Love is never desired by anyone, or
    *]The Love we desire was not possible for Solomon to receive and thus not something he should desire
    *]I was mistaken, and Solomon was saying no [sinful] thing one desires compares with Wisdom

    As you mentioned, in the case of (5) the puzzle is solved. For even if (5) were true, it would also be equally true that no sinful thing you or I desire compares with Love. The beautiful pearl of truth we find under that stone is worth saving, I think. Though we readily admit this is only conjecture. This supposed valuable treasure might still turn out to be only costume jewelry and not compare to the real truth (if it exists) found under another stone (or thought) we turn over.

    That thought I propose, and that I trust you will examine carefully, is this: The truth is (1) but Solomon, even though he was mistaken, was still not unwise. Rather, he was only ignorant. My thought is that we are defining Wisdom this way:

    Wisdom = (1) having the ability to discern the truth, (2) having possessing true opinion, and (3) acting according to the true opinion one possesses

    Would you say, P7, this is a fair, though perhaps over simplified, description of the lady virtue Solomon desired above all? If you agree, then I’ll go on to explain what pearl I’ve found under this stone.
 
P7:

Sorry, I meant to write this:

Would you say that

Wisdom =


  1. *]possessing the ability to discern the truth about an opinion
    *]knowing that an opinion one possesses is true, and
    *]acting according to the opinion one possesses and knows is true

    And my next question is this: Do you think Solomon had a true opinion of Love, or is it possible he had no opinion about her at all?
 
Ryan:

I hope you will consider continuing on this* Truth Trek* with us, for it might take us where no man has gone before. At least, it might take you, and I, and P7, and perhaps even Ben2 where none of us have been before.

My goal here is not to prove anyone wrong, but to find out what is true and what is false in each opinion presented. And I know much has been said, which is my fault. For, like Socrates, I am guilty of being one who is

… caring not whether his words are many or few, his only aim is to attain the truth.

(Theaetetus, 172)

But I count myself better off for finding the truth, even though some would say I’m a loser in debate. And a loser in debate I am, as I suppose if this were a competition, you and P7 would take the gold and silver, and I’d have the bronze. For you and P7 have shown me how I was wrong to be of the opinion that Wisdom might the greatest of all virtues, and that Love was merely greater than Faith and Hope.

As a loser of debate but a winner of truth, I want to get the most out of my defeat, and understand as much as God will allow about the nature of the beautiful virtue Love and her sister Wisdom. I want this trek to take me as far as God will allow, and trust that you will continue the exploration with us. It is a worthy enterprise, and one that will help us not only better know ourselves, but better know God as well. Don’t you think?

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

(Galatians 6:9)

http://www.scificool.com/images/2009/05/startrek1.jpg
**
To boldly go where none of us have gone before**
 
I haven’t been able to keep up but I have a short thought.

God’s truth has unfolded throughout salvation history. Solomon was revealing the most updated wisdom of his time. He was working with what was revealed to him. It was true but not complete. More was revealed to the New Testament authors who updated Solomon.

Think of the leap from identifying different attributes of God to identifying different persons of God. That is a huge leap. If we are going off the most updated revelation, Love trumps Wisdom.
 
spockrates said:
P7:

Sorry, I meant to write this:

Would you say that

Wisdom =


  1. *]possessing the ability to discern the truth about an opinion
    *]knowing that an opinion one possesses is true, and
    *]acting according to the opinion one possesses and knows is true

    And my next question is this: Do you think Solomon had a true opinion of Love, or is it possible he had no opinion about her at all?
Click to expand...

  1. Dear Spock,
    Code: 
                   I  like your  definition   ( although  maybe I cannot get  correctly the distinction between  1) and 2)    ).
    Other possible temptative definitions I’d like to explore, faithful to our present topic, connect christian wisdom with Love.
    • guide to love, our teacher on love, our path towards proper love
    Since God is Truth, as well as love, we could probably also say
    • guide to truth, our teacher on truth, our path towards truth
    but, considering again that “who loves knows God”, we see from this point of view too,
    that the deepest connection of wisdom is ultimately with love.

    Ryan reminds us of the development between OT and NT.

    Indeed, while both testaments speak about wisdom as well as love, there is a definite perception that the centre of gravity of the message shifts towards love passing from OT to NT.

    Maybe we could consider the OT as guide and path towards the NT, as wisdom is to love. 🙂

    The CCC reads

    140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; the two shed light on each other

    What if we said in analogy :

    Wisdom prepares Love and Love fulfills Wisdom ?
    As for the second question, I see little about love within the OT Wisdom literature.

    We can read nevertheless:

    23
    But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things; and you overlook the sins of men that they may repent.
    24
    For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.
    25
    And how could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?
    26
    But you spare all things, because they are yours, O LORD and lover of souls,

    (Wisdom 11)

    What does the author of “Wisdom”
    teach us here in your opinion ?

    In Christ
    P7
 
ryanoneil said:
I haven’t been able to keep up but I have a short thought.

God’s truth has unfolded throughout salvation history. Solomon was revealing the most updated wisdom of his time. He was working with what was revealed to him. It was true but not complete. More was revealed to the New Testament authors who updated Solomon.

Think of the leap from identifying different attributes of God to identifying different persons of God. That is a huge leap. If we are going off the most updated revelation, Love trumps Wisdom.
Click to expand...
Well done first officer Ryan! It appears your brief respite from our trek did not impede your ability to bring us further into the reaches of outer truth!

👍

Well said, my friend, and wise indeed! Now, let’s go into orbit around this heavenly body, beam down for a closer look, and use every modern discerning device at our disposal to get accurate readings of the nature of this truth you have helped us discover.

For starters, let’s start with what we know. God gave Solomon the virtue of wisdom and said this virtue would make the young Jewish king wiser than any king before him or since. Solomon, using this gift of wisdom, discerned that nothing he desires compares to this Wisdom God gave him (for I believe it is safe to say that he was speaking of no other wisdom, for the Wisdom God gives is superior to any man can muster on his own).

Next, let’s consider this: If this new discovery or yours is indeed truth, then it appears to shed new and brighter light on this truth that Jesus Himself spoke:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.”

(John 13:34)

In the past, I’ve wondered how it could possibly be true that the commandment to love is actually new. For when Jesus was asked what the greatest of the old commandments of the Old Testament were, He answered:

" ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(Matthew 22:37-40)

Jesus, of course, was quoting Deuteronomy. So the commandment to love was quite old. In fact, it was written by Moses many centuries before the birth of King Solomon. As a Jewish king, Solomon was required to read all of the Old Testament. Certainly the king who God made wiser than any other would have been privy to these words of wisdom spoken by God through Moses!

The only answer my own wisdom could muster was that what made Jesus’ command in John 13 new was His example. We are to follow His example by loving as He loves. But in context of our recent exploration, I’m seeing that I was perhaps mistaken. For Jesus dis not say, “A new example I give you.” Rather, He said, “A new command I give you.”

The only logical explanation, then, is that Jesus’ command to love given to His disciples was not the same as God’s command to love given through Moses. So let’s use our tricorder (AKA the Wisdom God gives us) and try to get an accurate reading of this alien life form (AKA newly found truth). In other words, let’s pray for Wisdom and then consider, together, the answer to this question:

How might the love Solomon knew might possibly differ from the Love of Christ?

🤷

http://www.gpsmaniac.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/spock.jpg
**
God’s Wisdom is our tricorder**
 
pneuma07 said:
Dear Spock,
Code: 
               I  like your  definition   ( although  maybe I cannot get  correctly the distinction between  1) and 2))... .
Click to expand...
Perhaps this analogy will help you apprehend the meaning:

My eldest son is looking forward to getting his driver’s license. He has passed the driving test, and has only to pass the written test. He is a bright boy, so I have no doubt he will pass the written test and receive his license. Now he:


  1. *]possesses the ability to know how to drive a car
    *]does not possess a driver’s license which will enable him to legally drive a car alone
    *]is not able to act as one who possesses a driver’s license by doing the act of driving alone

    You see, my son’s ability to drive is not the same as possessing a driver’s license that will give him the legal right to drive. Possessing the ability to discern how to drive is not the same as possessing a driver’s license.

    Or consider this brief example: My son is an extremely talented musician and makes beautiful music with a guitar. He has a natural talent for playing guitar. But before we gave him his first guitar, he possessed the potential to be a musician, but did not possess the actual knowledge to be a musician. Potential to know is not the same as actual knowing. Before he possessed a guitar and realized his musical talent, my son:

    1. *]possessed the natural talent to learn how to play the guitar
      *]did not possess a guitar or the knowledge of how to play one
      *]was not able to make the beautiful music he now makes after a few years of teaching himself how to play his guitar

      A similar truth applies to Wisdom. One might possess the ability (or potential) to discern the truth about a particular subject. But this this ability to discern the truth about a subject is not the same thing is knowing the truth about a subject. Capacity to know is not the same as knowing. Thus possessing the ability, potentiality and capacity to discern the truth (1) is not the same as actually discerning and knowing the truth (2). For, as suggested earlier, Wisdom is
      1. possessing the ability to discern the truth about an opinion
      2. knowing that an opinion one possesses is true, and
      3. acting according to the opinion one possesses and knows is true
      So Solomon’s wisdom might have been unsurpassed in relation to (1), but untapped in regard to (2). And in regard to those things he did not know–that is, in regard to (2)–he could not possibly be wise in the way of (3). To put it simply. No one has ever had more potential wisdom than Solomon, but even a young boy in Catholic school might know more about some things than Solomon ever knew.

      You know what I mean?


      **
      The beautiful music of Wisdom
      evolving from potential to actual**
 
pneuma07 said:
…
Other possible temptative definitions I’d like to explore, faithful to our present topic, connect christian wisdom with Love.
  • guide to love, our teacher on love, our path towards proper love
Since God is Truth, as well as love, we could probably also say
  • guide to truth, our teacher on truth, our path towards truth
but, considering again that “who loves knows God”, we see from this point of view too,
that the deepest connection of wisdom is ultimately with love.

Ryan reminds us of the development between OT and NT.

Indeed, while both testaments speak about wisdom as well as love, there is a definite perception that the centre of gravity of the message shifts towards love passing from OT to NT.

Maybe we could consider the OT as guide and path towards the NT, as wisdom is to love. 🙂

The CCC reads

*140 The unity of the two Testaments proceeds from the unity of God’s plan and his Revelation. The Old Testament prepares for the New and the New Testament fulfills the Old; *the two shed light on each other

What if we said in analogy :

Wisdom prepares Love and Love fulfills Wisdom ?
Click to expand...
Yes, I like that! But I still wonder: How in regard to Love does the New Testament fulfill the Old?

🤷

The answer to that question and others like it, I think, is the answer to the puzzle of how Solomon could have possibly thought the Wisdom he received from God was superior to any other virtue he possessed. Don’t you think?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Getting closer to solving
Solomon’s puzzle
 
pneuma07 said:
…

As for the second question, I see little about love within the OT Wisdom literature.

We can read nevertheless:

23
But you have mercy on all, because you can do all things; and you overlook the sins of men that they may repent.
24
For you love all things that are and loathe nothing that you have made; for what you hated, you would not have fashioned.
25
And how could a thing remain, unless you willed it; or be preserved, had it not been called forth by you?
26
But you spare all things, because they are yours, O LORD and lover of souls,

(Wisdom 11)

What does the author of “Wisdom”
teach us here in your opinion ?

In Christ
P7
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That God is God, and I am not. Just as Solomon could not know what God knows without receiving God’s own virtue of Wisdom, so too I can not love as God loves, and be merciful as God is merciful, without receiving His virtue of Love.

I have the desire to love, and thus the potential to be like God. But how can I fulfill that potential without the empowerment to love?

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

(Romans 7:14-25)

Without the Love of Christ, I cannot be actually loving. That is my answer to your question, P7. Do you think it is an opinion that is genuine spoken by the still, small voice of the Wisdom from God? Or is it only false opinion, and a mere fraud?



**The beautiful sound of Wisdom’s whispers
(Solomon was right about one thing:
My inner voice is a super model!)
 
spockrates said:
For starters, let’s start with what we know. God gave Solomon the virtue of wisdom and said this virtue would make the young Jewish king wiser than any king before him or since. Solomon, using this gift of wisdom, discerned that nothing he desires compares to this Wisdom God gave him (for I believe it is safe to say that he was speaking of no other wisdom, for the Wisdom God gives is superior to any man can muster on his own).

Next, let’s consider this: If this new discovery or yours is indeed truth, then it appears to shed new and brighter light on this truth that Jesus Himself spoke:

Jesus, of course, was quoting Deuteronomy. So the commandment to love was quite old. In fact, it was written by Moses many centuries before the birth of King Solomon. As a Jewish king, Solomon was required to read all of the Old Testament. Certainly the king who God made wiser than any other would have been privy to these words of wisdom spoken by God through Moses!

The only answer my own wisdom could muster was that what made Jesus’ command in John 13 new was His example. We are to follow His example by loving as He loves. But in context of our recent exploration, I’m seeing that I was perhaps mistaken. For Jesus dis not say, “A new example I give you.” Rather, He said, “A new command I give you.”

The only logical explanation, then, is that Jesus’ command to love given to His disciples was not the same as God’s command to love given through Moses. So let’s use our tricorder (AKA the Wisdom God gives us) and try to get an accurate reading of this alien life form (AKA newly found truth). In other words, let’s pray for Wisdom and then consider, together, the answer to this question:

How might the love Solomon knew might possibly differ from the Love of Christ?
Click to expand...
The Torah commanded human love for ourselves and our neighbor (Lev 19:18). Jesus comands* divine *love for one another modeled on his own love. This love comes from the Spirit, not us.

and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us. (Rom 5:5)

Now I’m only guessing here, but what if we applied this to Solomon. What if Solomon only had human wisdom and not divine wisdom?

If so, he could be considered the most wise in human terms. He did royally screw things up after all, which resulted in the destruction of the kingdom. 🤷

But then again, the Spirit of the Lord rushes upon the anointed one. I don’t know. What do you think?
 
ryanoneil said:
The Torah commanded human love for ourselves and our neighbor (Lev 19:18). Jesus comands* divine *love for one another modeled on his own love. This love comes from the Spirit, not us.

and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out into our hearts through the holy Spirit that has been given to us. (Rom 5:5)
…
Click to expand...
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

My thoughts exactly! It’s apples and bananas my friend; isn’t it? When Solomon thought of Love, there were two kinds–the Love God alone had, and the love we are commanded to have. Sweet as the oranges of his own natural love were, they could not compare to the Big Apple of God’s Love. And there is no indication that Solomon ever tasted a bite of that fruit of the Spirit. For there is no indication that God’s Love, like God’s Wisdom, was given to anyone.

But our Love is all Apple! (as you aptly quoted Saint Paul):

…because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us… .

(Romans 5:5)

That’s why it’s true that when Jesus’ said this,

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

(John 13:34-35)

He was indeed saying something completely new. For the love Solomon knew could not compare to the Love that Jesus gave at Pentecost and still gives today. Yes, I think you and I agree, Ryan.

👍
 
ryanoneil said:
… Now I’m only guessing here, but what if we applied this to Solomon. What if Solomon only had human wisdom and not divine wisdom?

If so, he could be considered the most wise in human terms. He did royally screw things up after all, which resulted in the destruction of the kingdom. 🤷

But then again, the Spirit of the Lord rushes upon the anointed one. I don’t know. What do you think?
Click to expand...
I don’t know. When I read this,

So God said to him, "Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be.

(1 Kings 3:11-12)

I think that God definitely gave Solomon divine Wisdom. Then again, when I read this,

I denied myself nothing my eyes desired;
I refused my heart no pleasure.
My heart took delight in all my work,
and this was the reward for all my labor.

Yet when I surveyed all that my hands had done
and what I had toiled to achieve,
everything was meaningless, a chasing after the wind;
nothing was gained under the sun.

(Ecclesiastes 2:10-11)

and I think, “How could denying oneself no pleasure be wise?”

Here is what I think is the answer. Please tell me if you think it might be true: There are three aspects of Wisdom. She helps us
  1. possess the ability to discern the truth
  2. know that an opinion we possesses is true, and
  3. act according to the the truth she reveals
That being the case, Solomon might have been unsurpassed in (1), but lacking in (3). Thus he was wise in his ability to discern the truth, but unwise in his willingness to live according to that truth.

But I wonder about (2). Since God did not make the virtue of Love available to Solomon, and God did not reveal to Solomon that this virtue would be available to us, then how could he be unwise about what he did not know? If Wisdom is discerning what opinion is true, and Solomon did not have enough information to form an opinion about the possibility of divine Love, then he might be said to be ignorant (or unaware) of the truth. But perhaps being unaware of the truth is no the same as being unwise?

🤷
 
Consider, for example, the subject of flight. For eons men dreamed of flying like the birds, but found it to be an impossibility. Imagine someone in Jesus’ time saying, “Nothing compares to the feeling of flying like a bird!”

Now, what he said might sound wise to someone today who has a pilot’s license or enjoys hang gliding. But in Jesus’ time, the man would not only be thought unwise, but perhaps stark raving mad! But the man in Jesus’ time who says, “Nothing compares to the feeling of horseback riding!” might be considered to have a wise opinion.

So think of this analogy:

**Divine Wisdom is to horseback riding

as divine Love is to flying.**

Just as flight was an impossibility to Solomon, so too divine Love was an impossibility. The wise thing for him to say, then, was that nothing compares to divine Wisdom. Because for Solomon, this is true, but not for me and you. As wonderful as the feel of the wind though our hair as our steed gallops at full speed is, it cannot compare to the exhilaration of flying high into the wild blue yonder.

So yes, if we are correct, the truth for us is that nothing compares to Love. But the truth for Solomon is that nothing compares to Wisdom. In this case, at least, the truth is relative to God and His powerful working in us in time.

Does this ring true to you too, Ryan?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Maybe Solomon just didn’t know the joy of flying?
 
P7 and Ryan:

I suppose, then, that we’re getting very near the end of our Truth Trek, and I trust we’ve found the truth for which I was searching. I want to say, once again, that I appreciate your both coming along with me on this journey. What was an apparent contradiction to me at the beginning of our dialog is now pretty near to being resolved. We might have just a few loose ends to tie up, if you are both interested in continuing.

You have both been friendly and helpful to me, and so I’d like to know if you would be interested in my adding you both to my short list of virtual friends. (You don’t have to post a reply; just send me a private message if you want.)

🙂
 
spockrates said:
P7 and Ryan:

I suppose, then, that we’re getting very near the end of our Truth Trek, and I trust we’ve found the truth for which I was searching. I want to say, once again, that I appreciate your both coming along with me on this journey. What was an apparent contradiction to me at the beginning of our dialog is now pretty near to being resolved. We might have just a few loose ends to tie up, if you are both interested in continuing.

You have both been friendly and helpful to me, and so I’d like to know if you would be interested in my adding you both to my short list of virtual friends. (You don’t have to post a reply; just send me a private message if you want.)

🙂
Click to expand...
Dear Spock,
Code: 
                   it  was indeed a trek I enjoied, from which I've learnt.
A long one for the standards of someone who can write fewer posts per year than you per month. 🙂

We end it with a confident affirmative answer to the question you put as title.

We also have several mutually compatible explanations as to how this conclusion of ours fits with Proverbs 8:11.

An appropriate and detailed comparison between christian Agape and the concept of Love developed in the OT would IMHO deserve a thread of its own, being maybe one of the possible treks which this one opens before us.

Another one being: have we followed the commandment of Love and the virtue we acknowledge as greatest for christians during this couple of Millennia ? Are we now following it ?
Is it that any fellow considering the interactions among christians and of christians towards the rest of the world, in real life, or in the microsphere of this wonderful Forum, can easily come out with a “Look how they love, they must be christians” ?

If the answer is on the whole negative, or a qualified negative, do we know the reasons, and do we know how to improve our performances, both as individuals and as Christianity ?

With this conclusive question, I thank Spock and everybody here for the thread.

See you in other treks.
 
You are most welcome, P7. And once more I am most grateful for your helping me find the answer to my question. And I’m equally grateful for your helping me discover that this contradiction between the Old and New Testaments was not a real, but only an apparent one. I suppose I should not be surprised that nearly every contradiction I’ve found within the pages of Sacred Scripture, upon thorough examination, is found to be no contradiction at all. As my list of seeming contradictions grows shorter, my Faith and Hope and Wisdom and even Love grows stronger.
 
spockrates said:
I suppose, then, we should–in the interest of fairness to Love–apply the five tests that she passed to this new contender for our affections–who is the one we call Wisdom:
Originally Posted by spockrates View Post
**The first test
Click to expand...
Before we end our dialog, I think it good to revisit our six tests. For this will help us recall why Love is fairest of all.

The 1st test:

The greatest virtue is the only virtue, for all other virtues are examples of her.

We found that Love failed this test. For many things that are the will of God are examples of Love, but some things are not. Some acts considered wise and God’s will are not loving. A police officer who shoots and kills a perpetrator of a crime in self defense does so wisely, for it is prudent and just to protect oneself from harm. But his act is in no way a selfless act of love for the one shot. And we might find many examples where an unloving act is a wise act and not against the will of God. Thus, not all acts that are God’s will are examples of Love. But all acts that are God’s will are acts of Wisdom. But Wisdom does not pass this test, either, for Wisdom is not an emotion, like Love, so any example of Love cannot possibly be an example of Wisdom.

The 2nd test:

The greatest virtue is the one who causes all other virtues.

We find that both Love and Wisdom fail this test. For some acts of Love are not wise. An act motivate by love (such as the granddaughter who helps her grandmother commit suicide) might be unwise and against the will of God. And some acts of Wisdom are not loving. As St. Paul said, if we have knowledge but do not love, our Wisdom is worthless in God’s eyes.

The 3rd test:

The greatest virtue is the only virtue necessary to bring us closer to God and heaven.

Neither virtue has victory over the other, here, though both are certainly winners. For both the power to Love that God gives us and the Wisdom God gives us are necessary to bring us closer to Him.

The 4th test:

The greatest virtue is the one who will be with us forever after death.

Again, we have a tie. Love and Wisdom both receive the gold medal, as both will be at our side for ever and ever.

The 5th test:

The greatest virtue is the one who makes us most like God.

At first glance, Love appeared to be the victor over Wisdom, because St. John the Apostle wrote, “God is love.” Yet, we know that God is not only loving, but also wise. And there are some acts that God commits that are not loving, though they are definitely just, and therefore wise (for Justice, we found, was a kind of Wisdom). Judging unrepentant sinners, for example, is in no way an act of love for the ones judge, but it is an act of justice. So God is Love, but He is also Wisdom. And Christ appears to agree, for He said He was the Truth.

The 6th test:

The greatest virtue is the one we desire above all, because nothing we desire compares to her.

After much exertion in competition (and a great deal of exertion ourselves in judging the competitors!) we gave Love the gold medal, here. For although it might have been true for Solomon that nothing he desired compared to Wisdom, it is not true for us. For after Christ came, died and rose again, he gave to us the Holy Spirit and the power to Love as God loves. Love, we found, is superior to Wisdom. For Wisdom is only a means to an end, and that end is Love.
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And Socrates appears to be one who agrees, for he wisely says:

And would you say that generation is for the sake of essence, or essence for the sake of generation? … I mean, O my Protarchus, to ask whether you would tell me that ship building is for the sake of ships, or ships for the sake of ship-building? and in similar cases I should ask the same question. My answer is that all things instrumental, remedial, material, are given to us with the view to generation. And each generation is relative to, or for the sake of, some being or essence. And the whole of generation is relative to the whole of essence. … And that which for the sake of something else is done must be place in the class of good. And that which is done for the sake of something else should be placed in some other class, my friend. … And one would surely laugh at those who make generation their highest end.

(Philebus)

I suppose then that the last laugh is on me (though I’m in good company, for Solomon is surely the brunt of the joke of this comedic dialog, as well)! For before I started this discussion thread, I was of the ridiculous opinion that the highest end of life was Wisdom. The truth, I now confess (and for which I have you, P7, and you, Ryan, and others to thank), is this:

Wisdom is NOT greater than Love, because:
  • Wisdom is generation for the sake of an essence, and that essence is Love
  • Wisdom is a means to a wise end, and that wise end is Love
  • Wisdom is a cause of a good effect, and that good effect is Love
  • Wisdom discerns God’s will, and God’s will is Love
  • Wisdom guides us toward our ultimate goal, and that ultimate goal is Love
 
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