Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

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Yes, Mr. Scott!

😃
Well, I have spent my whole life trying to figure out crazy ways of doing things. 😉
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Fascinating! Please tell me how it can possibly be true that selfish love is selfless.

🤷
Uhm no, selfish love cannot be ever selfless. Self love, however, can.

I think you are missing the point that I was trying to point to you: true self love does not have its own self as its own end, but the good of someone else. You take care of yourself so that you can love somebody else.
 
And oh, Spockrates, about suicides and martyrs:
Not only is suicide a sin, it is THE sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer’s suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man’s crime is different from other crimes – for it makes even crimes impossible…
Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forgets his own personal life. A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside him, that he wants to see the last of everything. One wants something to begin: the other wants everything to end. In other words, the martyr is noble, exactly because (however he renounces the world or execrates all humanity) he confesses this ultimate link with life; he sets his heart outside himself: he dies that something may live. The suicide is ignoble because he has not this link with being: he is a mere destroyer; spiritually, he destroys the universe. And then I remembered the stake and the cross-roads, and the queer fact that Christianity had shown this weird harshness to the suicide. For Christianity had shown a wild encouragement of the martyr. Historic Christianity was accused, not entirely without reason, of carrying martyrdom and asceticism to a point, desolate and pessimistic. The early Christian martyrs talked of death with a horrible happiness. They blasphemed the beautiful duties of the body: they smelt the grave afar off like a field of flowers. All this has seemed to many the very poetry of pessimism. Yet there is the stake at the crossroads to show what Christianity thought of the pessimist.
 
No one has the right to take one’s life even for one’s God.God will not desire it.However if Satan motivates a person and gives him or her a mistaken notion that it would please God then he or she will take ones life.A good student of Islam and a pious one at that will not take one’s life even for his God because his God will reject it.
Sorry for the delay in responding. So much to do; so little time!

:o

It seems, then, that Love can be misguided. I mean, the motivation to love God is a good one, but if one does not know how God wants one to love, one might do something foolish. Her motivation might be right, but her method wrong. Don’t you think, Antonabe?
 
Well, I have spent my whole life trying to figure out crazy ways of doing things. 😉

Uhm no, selfish love cannot be ever selfless. Self love, however, can.

I think you are missing the point that I was trying to point to you: true self love does not have its own self as its own end, but the good of someone else. You take care of yourself so that you can love somebody else.
Still trying to wrap my mind around what you are saying, Nun. Thanks for stretching it to it’s limit!

👍

When I get confused, I like to use examples to make things more clear. Please consider this one taken from the current headlines:

Tiger Woods had several sexual affairs. Would you say that his sorted acts of cheating on his wife were not acts of self love? If not self love, then were they acts of self hatred?

🤷
 
Still trying to wrap my mind around what you are saying, Nun. Thanks for stretching it to it’s limit!

👍

When I get confused, I like to use examples to make things more clear.
The thing is, there are so many meanings of the word “love” right now, as it has been for many centuries. So maybe my use of this word was not clear, sorry.

Let us now try to define “love” as I have tried to use it, and it is the definition given by the Catechism for Christian love, charity.
Charity is the theological virtue by which we love God above all things for his own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for the love of God. CCC 1822
Self-love is to love ourselves so that the prerequisite of “to love our neighbors as ourselves for the love of God” can be achieved. From the definition itself, you cannot love someone else if you do not love yourself.

Self-love is also there so that we can keep the mandates of charity, which is to obey God’s commandments.
Fruit of the Spirit and fullness of the Law, charity keeps the commandments of God and his Christ: “Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love.” CCC 1824
How can you obey the commandments of the Lord if you do not have the strength, physically and mentally as well as spiritually?

Finally, if you love yourself to the point that it is contrary to charity—that is, to the point that you are harming your relationship to God and your neighbor—can you call that “love”? Personally, I would call that self-“luv” because it is a false love, it cannot be part of Christian love that is charity, because Christian love always points towards God and other men.
The practice of all the virtues is animated and inspired by charity, which “binds everything together in perfect harmony”; it is the form of the virtues; it articulates and orders them among themselves; it is the source and the goal of their Christian practice. Charity upholds and purifies our human ability to love, and raises it to the supernatural perfection of divine love. CCC 1827
Please consider this one taken from the current headlines:

Tiger Woods had several sexual affairs. Would you say that his sorted acts of cheating on his wife were not acts of self love? If not self love, then were they acts of self hatred?

🤷
Tiger Woods may in a way “loving himself”; he may be loving himself in a way that is called a “human love” as defined by CCC 1827 above, or what I would define as “luv”, but it is not the love which is defined by 1 Corinthians chapter 13. The Catechism is clear that what St. Paul was defining in that part of the New Testament is charity:
“If I . . . have not charity,” says the Apostle, “I am nothing.” Whatever my privilege, service, or even virtue, “if I . . . have not charity, I gain nothing” (1 Corinthians 13:1-4). Charity is superior to all the virtues. It is the first of the theological virtues: “So faith, hope, charity abide, these three. But the greatest of these is charity.” (1 Corinthians 13:13) CCC 1826
It is now my turn to give my own example of self-love—that is, self love that is aligned with charity.

You are a fireman that is rescuing a person from a burning building; you are both still inside that said building. Suddenly you notice a burning beam falling towards the both of you, and you cannot jump out of the way nor can you use anything to shield yourselves from it. Do you use yourself as a shield for your rescuee from the beam, or do you use the rescuee to shield yourself?

The answer is you use the rescuee to shield yourself. Now that may sound cruel, but think about it: if that beam hits you, the rescuer, and you become injured, can the person you are rescuing save the both of you? You are there to rescue that person, so he/she most probably cannot! Therefore it is better that the rescuee be put into harm’s way, for even though he/she can be more injured and even killed by that incident, at least you have a better chance of rescuing the both of you.

In a crisis situation, the rescuer’s safety is paramount.
 
The thing is, there are so many meanings of the word “love” right now, as it has been for many centuries. So maybe my use of this word was not clear, sorry.

Let us now try to define “love” as I have tried to use it, and it is the definition given by the Catechism for Christian love, charity.

Self-love is to love ourselves so that the prerequisite of “to love our neighbors as ourselves for the love of God” can be achieved. From the definition itself, you cannot love someone else if you do not love yourself.
…
Gotta go, but I have time to respond to this, and will need time to think about the rest of what you thoughtfully said.

Perhaps loving oneself applies to loving part of oneself, but not the whole? I mean, Christ gives us the ultimate example of love by suffering on the cross. It’s hard to explain how that could possibly be loving His body. There is no conceivable benefit for His body in such an act. However, the result of that extreme suffering was beneficial to His soul, for it was pleasing to both the Father and Himself to provide the only way to save you and me from certain suffering and separation from them. In this sense, Christ’s crucifixion was an act of self-love for His soul, but not for his flesh. What do you think?
 
Sorry for the delay in responding. So much to do; so little time!

It seems, then, that Love can be misguided. I mean, the motivation to love God is a good one, but if one does not know how God wants one to love, one might do something foolish. Her motivation might be right, but her method wrong. Don’t you think, Antonabe?
She should have realised first of all that taking ones’ life is a Sin however if misguided indocrination has made her think otherwise in her jumbled mind she thinks she is doing the act for God and that is the motivation, which is far from the truth.In the 9/11 catastrophe a sucide bomber killed hundreds of people and killed himself.He thought he was going to be a hero too in the eyes of God.Here too his motivation has been misguided
as the basic acts of killing Humans and killing oneself are both Sins.There cannot be motivation which can be condoned for commiting grave Sin.Attempts at radical indocrination must be reconciled with traditional and convenional teaching and must be viewed in a balanced manner and if necessary in consultation with religous hierarchy.If the person concerned is a Muslim he or she should first ascertain by consultation,discussion whether the act of suicide or killing is a Sin.
 
She should have realised first of all that taking ones’ life is a Sin however if misguided indocrination has made her think otherwise in her jumbled mind she thinks she is doing the act for God and that is the motivation, which is far from the truth.In the 9/11 catastrophe a sucide bomber killed hundreds of people and killed himself.He thought he was going to be a hero too in the eyes of God.Here too his motivation has been misguided
as the basic acts of killing Humans and killing oneself are both Sins.There cannot be motivation which can be condoned for commiting grave Sin.Attempts at radical indocrination must be reconciled with traditional and convenional teaching and must be viewed in a balanced manner and if necessary in consultation with religous hierarchy.If the person concerned is a Muslim he or she should first ascertain by consultation,discussion whether the act of suicide or killing is a Sin.
Yes, I quite agree, Antonabe!

👍

Still, I have to wonder whether Love is all a person needs to know the difference between right and wrong. As we too often see, some Muslims see suicide as a virtue, rather than a vice. Some Buddhists see suicide in a similar light. Those who take such a view of suicide might end their lives out of love for others, and even out of love for their God, as they understand Him or It.

It seems a person needs another virtue besides the virtue of Love to discern right from wrong. Don’t you agree?
 
… Finally, if you love yourself to the point that it is contrary to charity—that is, to the point that you are harming your relationship to God and your neighbor—can you call that “love”? Personally, I would call that self-“luv” because it is a false love, it cannot be part of Christian love that is charity, because Christian love always points towards God and other men.

Tiger Woods may in a way “loving himself”; he may be loving himself in a way that is called a “human love” as defined by CCC 1827 above, or what I would define as “luv”, but it is not the love which is defined by 1 Corinthians chapter 13. The Catechism is clear that what St. Paul was defining in that part of the New Testament is charity:

…
But is the difference between self-love and self-luv not this?

Self-love = loving one’s own soul, sometimes more than one’s own body

Self-love = loving one’s own body more than one’s own soul

Do you think I’m on to something?

🤷
 
…
It is now my turn to give my own example of self-love—that is, self love that is aligned with charity.

You are a fireman that is rescuing a person from a burning building; you are both still inside that said building. Suddenly you notice a burning beam falling towards the both of you, and you cannot jump out of the way nor can you use anything to shield yourselves from it. Do you use yourself as a shield for your rescuee from the beam, or do you use the rescuee to shield yourself?

The answer is you use the rescuee to shield yourself. Now that may sound cruel, but think about it: if that beam hits you, the rescuer, and you become injured, can the person you are rescuing save the both of you? You are there to rescue that person, so he/she most probably cannot! Therefore it is better that the rescuee be put into harm’s way, for even though he/she can be more injured and even killed by that incident, at least you have a better chance of rescuing the both of you.

In a crisis situation, the rescuer’s safety is paramount.
In this situation (and maybe many more!) you might be right, Nun.

👍

However, I still wonder about the many other contrary situations where you might be wrong. It seems, then, there are two categories of loving actions we are considering:


  1. *]Loving one’s own body and one’s own soul in order to love the body or soul of another
    *]Loving one’s own soul, but NOT one’s own body, in order to love the body or soul of another

    Would you say this is a fair assessment of our investigation thus far?

    🤷
 
Yes, I quite agree, Antonabe!

👍

Still, I have to wonder whether Love is all a person needs to know the difference between right and wrong. As we too often see, some Muslims see suicide as a virtue, rather than a vice. Some Buddhists see suicide in a similar light. Those who take such a view of suicide might end their lives out of love for others, and even out of love for their God, as they understand Him or It.

It seems a person needs another virtue besides the virtue of Love to discern right from wrong. Don’t you agree?
Yes I agree the virtue to discern right from wrong is a gift of the Holy Spirit.I say a prayer to the Holy Spirit everyday which I am prepared to share with you if you are interested and I have never gone wrong and in fact I have been always been protected.
 
In this situation (and maybe many more!) you might be right, Nun.

👍

However, I still wonder about the many other contrary situations where you might be wrong. It seems, then, there are two categories of loving actions we are considering:


  1. *]Loving one’s own body and one’s own soul in order to love the body or soul of another
    *]Loving one’s own soul, but NOT one’s own body, in order to love the body or soul of another

    Would you say this is a fair assessment of our investigation thus far?

    🤷
  1. But is the difference between self-love and self-luv not this?

    Self-love = loving one’s own soul, sometimes more than one’s own body

    Self-love = loving one’s own body more than one’s own soul

    Do you think I’m on to something?

    🤷
    Well, you did define “love” as the definition St Paul gave in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 in the opening post, which according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the Christian love charity, so I base my discussion about love from that.

    However, I do think you did hit on something, for one’s soul is paramount. When I was participating in a discussion about lying on another thread, I came across a saying by St Augustine, which said that a man must not slay his own soul by lying in order to preserve the life of another. Thus, the ultimate form of self-love is to take care of one’s own soul.

    Nevertheless, I have to disagree that self love is “Loving one’s own soul, but NOT one’s own body, in order to love the body or soul of another,” for it is quite logical that you have to take care of the body when needed to be able to take care of somebody else. A better formulation would be

    Self love is to love one’s own body and one’s own soul in order to love somebody else, but especially one’s own soul, for it is paramount and should not be lost due to sin.

    Remember that to love does NOT mean to pamper, so all the saints who have practiced mortification of the flesh in one form and/or another have practiced self love. They may had not given what their bodies wanted, but they gave what their bodies needed.
 
Yes I agree the virtue to discern right from wrong is a gift of the Holy Spirit.I say a prayer to the Holy Spirit everyday which I am prepared to share with you if you are interested and I have never gone wrong and in fact I have been always been protected.
Yes, please do share.

🙂
 
Well, you did define “love” as the definition St Paul gave in 1 Corinthians chapter 13 in the opening post, which according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church is the Christian love charity, so I base my discussion about love from that.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

Hi! I’ve been wondering something: Saint Paul tells you and I that love is the greatest, but is he right? You see, I’m not so sure he is. I’m hoping someone can explain why love is greater and what it is greater than. Any thoughts?

🙂
​

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It has been so long since the opening post I had forgotten what I wrote!

😃

I’ll give a short synopsis of what occurred at the very beginning of the dialog, before your arrival: I started by wondering if St. Paul the Apostle was saying Love was greater than all virtues, or if Love was merely greater than Hope and Faith. If she is merely greater than her sisters Hope and Faith, I wondered if she had another sister who is greater still than all three. I know what I learned from P7, James and others, but what do you have to tell me?
However, I do think you did hit on something, for one’s soul is paramount. When I was participating in a discussion about lying on another thread, I came across a saying by St Augustine, which said that a man must not slay his own soul by lying in order to preserve the life of another. Thus, the ultimate form of self-love is to take care of one’s own soul.
I loved his Confessions! Please tell me more of what the saint said.

👍
Nevertheless, I have to disagree that self love is “Loving one’s own soul, but NOT one’s own body, in order to love the body or soul of another,” for it is quite logical that you have to take care of the body when needed to be able to take care of somebody else. A better formulation would be

Self love is to love one’s own body and one’s own soul in order to love somebody else, but especially one’s own soul, for it is paramount and should not be lost due to sin.

Remember that to love does NOT mean to pamper, so all the saints who have practiced mortification of the flesh in one form and/or another have practiced self love. They may had not given what their bodies wanted, but they gave what their bodies needed.
Do you think, Nun that if someone loves another she would care for that person’s body rather than allow it to suffer harm?

🤷
 
Nun, I’ve enjoyed this one.

👍

Please let me know if you want to continue.

Also, how is your crisis of faith going? (You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.)
 
Yes, please do share.

🙂
“Lord Jesus,by faith in your merits I now take your precious blood and sprinkle it over myself and my family,right from the crown of my head to the very soles of my feet.I claim total protection for my family and myself.
Lord Jesus keep me free today from evil,sin,temptation,Satans attacks and afflictions,fear of darkness,fear of man,sickness,disease,doubts,anger,all calammities and from all that is not of your kingdom.
Fill me Lord Jesus with the gift of the Holy Spirit,and grant me the gifts of wisdom so that I will live today in your Glory by doing that which is right.
I praise you,Jesus
I thank you Jesus
I love you Jesus
I adore you Jesus
Holy Spirit you make me see everything and show me the way to reach my ideals.You give me the divine gift to forgive and forget the wrong done to me,and you are in all instances of my life with me.I in this short dialogue want to thank you for everything and affirm once more that I never want to be separated from you no matter how great the material desire may be.
I want to be be with you and my loved ones in your perpetual Glory”
Spockrates,I have found that when I have problems and pain of mind this prayer has eased my burdens.God Bless you.
 
You seem to be making an excellent distinction.

Relatively faith is the greatest in that it begins our spiritual life.

Relatively the wheels are the greatest thing on a car for foward motion.

Absolutel, the engine is the greatest; it makes a car an automobile.

Absolutely, love is the greatest.

Also, love is first in the sense that all other things (faith, love, happiness) come from love. It is not first in the sense of one, two, three.

Love is God, thus greatest.

Love saves us, not faith. The Good Samaritan inherited eternal life becasue he love.

Also, it is His love that gives life to all other things such as faith, hope and happiness.
I agree with this statement. For without having love you cannot have hope enough to sustain faith.
 
“Lord Jesus,by faith in your merits I now take your precious blood and sprinkle it over myself and my family,right from the crown of my head to the very soles of my feet.I claim total protection for my family and myself.
Lord Jesus keep me free today from evil,sin,temptation,Satans attacks and afflictions,fear of darkness,fear of man,sickness,disease,doubts,anger,all calammities and from all that is not of your kingdom.
Fill me Lord Jesus with the gift of the Holy Spirit,and grant me the gifts of wisdom so that I will live today in your Glory by doing that which is right.
I praise you,Jesus
I thank you Jesus
I love you Jesus
I adore you Jesus
Holy Spirit you make me see everything and show me the way to reach my ideals.You give me the divine gift to forgive and forget the wrong done to me,and you are in all instances of my life with me.I in this short dialogue want to thank you for everything and affirm once more that I never want to be separated from you no matter how great the material desire may be.
I want to be be with you and my loved ones in your perpetual Glory”
Spockrates,I have found that when I have problems and pain of mind this prayer has eased my burdens.God Bless you.
Amen.

:signofcross:
 
I agree with this statement. For without having love you cannot have hope enough to sustain faith.
Thank you for joining the conversation, Mary. When you say “without having love you cannot hope” do you mean without having God love you, or without having love for God and others?
 
What I’ve learned from this dialog:

I’ve learned that I can count on the the thoughtful people of CAF to help me think things through and come to a better understanding of the truth. I’ve learned that when St. Paul wrote this

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

I should consider the 13th verse of the 13th chapter one of the most wonderful verses I’ve been lucky enough to consider. For I’ve discovered the importance of Love, and realized that she is greater to desire and possess than even her cousins Faith and Hope. Yet her cousins are just as necessary to have and to hold, for without Hope how could I have hope of going on living for God? And without Hope’s sister Faith, how could I trust in God to give me the Hope and Love I need to succeed? I’ve also learned that Wisdom, though she is the sister of Love and likely not as great as her, is just as desirable and worthy of my affections. For she alone shows me the wisest way to love as God desires I love Him and others. In short, I’d say these words are just as true as St. Paul’s, and perhaps more helpful:

And now these four virtues remain: Faith, Hope, Wisdom and Love. The greatest of these is Love. But Love without the other three is not as great as she could be.

(1 Corinthians 13:13, revised)
 
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