Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

This is why it is not good to try and rationalize everything. Love of God - Love of neighbor - Faith etc. are not purely rational things.

Is understanding something the same as doing something?

You seek too much to “Know” when what you should be doing is praying and resting in God’s Love and grace so that He may reveal these things to you. Then perhap, once God has given you greater understanding, you can help explain these things to others because has given you the gift of questioning and writing.

Is what God reveals that which I know, or that which I do not know?

She already has sinned by fornicating with the man, now she is willing to sin further by committing murder for the same man. Does it sound to you like this woman Loves God and wishes not to offend Him? Does it sound like she Loves her Fellow man for the Love of God, if she is willing to Kill one person in order to please another person?

Peace
James

It sounds to me that her heart is in the right place (for she wants to love God and the man she loves), but her head does not understand how to love (for she is ignorant of her sin). Have you never been in the same boat? Have you never done what you thought was right, only to find out later that you were mistaken?

 

[poetryforjesus]

Mother Angelica on EWTN once commented on this scripture by St. Paul. She interprets “love” to be love for God. She says that the greatest thing is love for God, without which neither faith nor hope nor anything will mean anything.

I agree with her.

I think one thing great about Catholicism is that our focus is on God rather than on us. We ask how we can make God happy rather than how we can get more peace. Once we get this priority right, seeing everything from God’s perspective, then other things will fall into place.

This is reality:

God exists.
God is good and deserves all love from us.
We are creatures and our only purpose is to give ourselves back to God in love.
Do we love God?
If we love God, then we are going to be fine.
If we don’t, why not?
Do we know God?
If we know Him, we ought to love Him.
If we don’t love Him, perhaps we don’t know Him?
If we don’t know Him, then we should get to know Him.
How do we get to know Him?
We get to know Him by trusting in His existence and guidance.
If we already know Him and don’t love Him, then we are damned.
Do we love Him enough?
If not, we should love Him more.

 

[spockrates]

This verse is pretty straightforward. It says, “But the greatest of these [faith, hope and love] is love.” This is an Apostle speaking as well as being written in the Bible. It is as clear as it possibly can be.

Yes, Zach, it is clear WHAT Paul wrote, but it is unclear WHY what he wrote is true. I ask to try to understand the why.

As others have pointed out, God is Love [1 Jn 4:8], that’s what God is. He is not faith, He is not hope, He is love. …

Yes, I think you are on to something, here, Zach! Love is certainly an attribute of God.



Would you say, then, that what makes Love great is that she is most like God? That is, when I live my life devoted to her, living according to her desire for me, am I most like God?

Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

(Ephesians 5:1-2)

 

[spockrates]

Mother Angelica on EWTN once commented on this scripture by St. Paul. She interprets “love” to be love for God. She says that the greatest thing is love for God, without which neither faith nor hope nor anything will mean anything.

I agree with her.

I think one thing great about Catholicism is that our focus is on God rather than on us. We ask how we can make God happy rather than how we can get more peace. Once we get this priority right, seeing everything from God’s perspective, then other things will fall into place.

This is reality:

God exists.
God is good and deserves all love from us.
We are creatures and our only purpose is to give ourselves back to God in love.
Do we love God?
If we love God, then we are going to be fine.
If we don’t, why not?
Do we know God?
If we know Him, we ought to love Him.
If we don’t love Him, perhaps we don’t know Him?
If we don’t know Him, then we should get to know Him.
How do we get to know Him?
We get to know Him by trusting in His existence and guidance.
If we already know Him and don’t love Him, then we are damned.
Do we love Him enough?
If not, we should love Him more.

Thanks, Poetry. Would you say that Faith and Love are both required by God, but Love is better than Faith, for she causes me to be less selfish and more giving, as God is giving?

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

(1 John 4:10)

Yes, I can see Love’s poetic beauty in that.

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Love​

 

[poetryforjesus]

Thanks, Poetry. Would you say that Faith and Love are both required by God, but Love is better than Faith, for she causes me to be less selfish and more giving, as God is giving?

This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

(1 John 4:10)

Yes, I can see the poetic beauty in that.

http://www.syfy.com/battlestar/images/gallery/women/14.jpg

Love

Love is the beginning and the end. No one can learn to love without the gift of faith. But love is life itself.

 

[spockrates]

Love is the beginning and the end. No one can learn to love without the gift of faith. But love is life itself.

Yes, I suppose if God *is *Love, then she (i.e., Love, figuratively speaking) is God. And I suppose if God is Life, then she, too, is life. At least, embracing love is to live–both now, and forever more! Beautiful thoughts, don’t you think?

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...ontent/uploads/grace-park-tahmoh-penikett.jpg

Love and Loved

 

[spockrates]

And I suppose that embracing Faith, though it be necessary for me, is not as deep or beautiful experience as being in love with Love. Would you agree?

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Faith and Trusting

 

[JRKH]

Yes, James, I believe you are correct. For, as mentioned earlier, Saint Paul tells us this:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God … .

(Ephesians 2:8)

Without Faith, being saved (whatever that implies) is impossible. Faith, then, is truly great, indeed! If she were a lady, she would be an object of every Catholic man’s desire, I suppose. But what about love? Is she just as desirable for being saved?

I don’t understand why you feel the need to try and seperate the two as if they can stand independent of each other. Such is not thecase in Paul’s letter. You must remember who it is that Paul is writing to. This letter is written to people who are already believers, not to unbelievers. To these believers he is trying to provide guidance. That is why he tells them that no matter what ofther gifts they have, the gift is worthless without Love.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

I don’t understand why you feel the need to try and seperate the two as if they can stand independent of each other. Such is not thecase in Paul’s letter. You must remember who it is that Paul is writing to. This letter is written to people who are already believers, not to unbelievers. To these believers he is trying to provide guidance. That is why he tells them that no matter what ofther gifts they have, the gift is worthless without Love.

Peace
James

Yes, I agree both are important. Just trying to understand why Love is more important than Faith.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...otresource.com/bg/pics/characters/sharon2.jpg http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...74157/2174187/2174188/070921_TVW_Starbuck.jpg
Love and Faith

Would you say, then, that Love is the greatest of all virtues? Would you say that nothing I desire can compare to her?

 

[spockrates]

I mean, I can see, now, that Love is greater than Faith and Hope. As Zach said:

Originally Posted by **zach dunn **
As others have pointed out, God is Love [1 Jn 4:8], that’s what God is. He is not faith, He is not hope, He is love. …

But is Love greater than all other virtues, as well? Or is there some other virtue that surpasses her?

http://www.complex.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/bsg.jpg

Is it possible to know the name of the greatest virtue?

 

[JRKH]

I mean, I can see, now, that Love is greater than Faith and Hope. As Zach said:

But is Love greater than all other virtues, as well? Or is there some other virtue that surpasses her?

Jesus says that it is the base, Paul says it is the greatest.

Virtues are interconnected just as faith and hope. But Love is the underlying pronciple that Gives salvic life to all other virtues and gifts from God.

Jesus says that we are to be Perfect as our Heavenly father is perfect. Since you state above in another post that God is Love, then to become Perfect in God is to become perfect in Love.
That is in Godly Love, and not the kind suggested by the pictures you have been posting which are more sensual love/lust. This is something altogether different.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

Jesus says that it is the base, Paul says it is the greatest.

Virtues are interconnected just as faith and hope. But Love is the underlying pronciple that Gives salvic life to all other virtues and gifts from God.

Jesus says that we are to be Perfect as our Heavenly father is perfect. Since you state above in another post that God is Love, then to become Perfect in God is to become perfect in Love.
That is in Godly Love, and not the kind suggested by the pictures you have been posting which are more sensual love/lust. This is something altogether different.

Peace
James

Thank you James for sticking with me in this. I believe it is helping to make things more clear and cogent.



I know that you keep asking why I ask why. And why I ask why is to increase my faith. You see, knowing what to believe is good, but not good enough. Knowing why I believe is better, for when I know why my faith is stronger.



And yes, I do agree with St. John that,

… God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

But knowing that God is love is not the same as understanding why God is love. Maybe you can help me understand how this is true. Please let me ask you this:

If

God = Love

then

G = L

and since

G = L

it is also true that

L = G

Therefore,

Love = God

or

Love is God

Do you think, then, that the virtue of Love itself is God? Or do you think there must be a different understanding to John’s words in 1 John 4:8?

 

[Jim_Baur]

spockrates

You asked: “do I agree with you?”

I am not sure.

I do not have the sanity to read all of the posts, sorry.

I guess we do.

Again, I am sorry for not having the energy or time to read all of the posts.

God Bless,

Jim Baur

 

[JRKH]

Thank you James for sticking with me in this. I believe it is helping to make things more clear and cogent.



I know that you keep asking why I ask why. And why I ask why is to increase my faith. You see, knowing what to believe is good, but not good enough. Knowing why I believe is better, for when I know why my faith is stronger.



And yes, I do agree with St. John that,

… God is love.

(1 John 4:8)

But knowing that God is love is not the same as understanding why God is love. Maybe you can help me understand how this is true. Please let me ask you this:

If

God = Love

then

G = L

and since

G = L

it is also true that

L = G

Therefore,

Love = God

or

Love is God

Do you think, then, that the virtue of Love itself is God? Or do you think there must be a different understanding to John’s words in 1 John 4:8?

I am going to answer no to this.
The reason is not because I don’t think that God is Love, but rather that humans will quickly translate “Love is God” into something less than God.
For example, I note that the pictures you have been posting relating to Love are of a sensual, man and woman, sexy type. I don’t mean that you are necessarily thinking this way, but the Love of God is something much different.
The Love of God is best depicted by Christ upon the Cross, not by women in scanty dresses and sexy poses.

But man - will not wish to see “Love=God” as Christ on the Cross. Such Love requires to much suffering and seriousness for sensual man.
Man would prefer to see it as sensual love and thus distort God’s Love for his own pleasure.

God is Love, - Gods Love
Love is God so long as it is God’s Love we are talking about.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

spockrates

You asked: “do I agree with you?”

I am not sure.

I do not have the sanity to read all of the posts, sorry.

I guess we do.

Again, I am sorry for not having the energy or time to read all of the posts.

God Bless,

Jim Baur

Jim:

No need to read them all! Let me give you the Reader’s Digest summary in just a few posts, and, if you like, please tell me what you think after that. Here goes!

 

[spockrates]

The passage we are considering from the opening post is this:

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

(1 Corinthians 13:13)

I’m wondering what Love is and what it means to call her the greatest. Knowing why Love is the greatest will help me appreciate her more and understand myself, and what God wants from me, and perhaps even God more.

So, I’ve asked you and others to come up with a test. What greatness test shows Love is the best? The following tests have been proposed.

 

[spockrates]

The First Test

**1. Love is the greatest virtue because all other other virtues are examples of her. **

One thoughtful person suggested that all virtues are in fact love in disguise. We agreed that there is good evidence that this is true of many a virtue. For example, Saint Paul writes:

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

(1 Corinthians 13:4)

I suppose it is true that virtues such as

• patience
• kindness
• showing good will
• humility
• politeness
• selflessness
• self-control

and others are actually just aspects of love.

However, this is not the case when it comes to virtues such as Faith, Hope, and some others. I suppose it is possible to trust God and hope in God without loving Him. For example, one who falls from grace might, in his honest moments, trust that God will punish the wicked. And though such a man hopes this will not happen to him, he may fear that it will. Such a person loves his sin, rather than God. Thus, Faith and Hope are not the same as Love, though they might be her beloved sisters.

The first test does not prove Love is the greatest.

 

[spockrates]

**The second test

1. Love is the greatest because all other virtues are caused by her.**

The person who proposed this test agrees that virtues such as Faith and Hope are not Love in disguise, but they are her children. Love gives birth to both Faith and Hope and all other virtues, as well. She, being their mother, is greater than all of her children. For none of them would exist without her.

This is an intriguing hypothesis, but we found it to not be true of all virtues. Faith, for example, and Hope also, are actually causes of Love. The effect of a person putting faith and hope in God is that the person, after receiving such a faith, grows in love for God. This might not be as recognizable in the case of those baptized as infants, but where there are evil men who repent of their sin, confess their sin to a priest, do penance, and convert to Catholicism, such men appear to experience fear of God, then hope that God will forgive, then faith that God will forgive, then amazement and gratitude and love for the God who does forgive. Thus, Faith and Hope are not the result of Love, rather, they are the reason for it. If anything, Love is their child.

The second test does not prove Love is the greatest.

 

[spockrates]

**The third test

1. Love is the only virtue necessary to bring us closer to God and heaven.**

This suggestion was considered and rejected quickly. As the Sacred Scripture tells us:

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

(Hebrews 11:6)

and

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God … .

(Ephesians 2:8)

Faith, and perhaps her twin sister Hope, are as necessary for getting close to God and heaven as Love. For without them, who can receive God’s grace (or undeserved kindness)?

The third test does not prove Love the best.

 

[spockrates]

**The fourth test

1. Love is greatest because she is the only virtue who will be with us forever after death.**

The thoughtful person who suggested this was on to something, I think. After all, says Saint Paul:

Who hopes for what he already has?

(Romans 8:24)

Once in heaven and eternity, there will be no need for Hope. For we will have the object of our hope, which is to see Jesus face to face. This moves Hope to, perhaps, third place in the beauty contest, I think.

Faith, however, is still in the running. For, it seems to me, she will be at your side and mine forever and ever, too. That is, she will, if Faith is trust in God. For who will ever doubt Jesus once at His side?