Oh it is not such a serious accusation. People have been banned before no big deal. They just come up with a different name and sign back on again just as you have done. I know a few who have done that so you’re not the first. I even knew someone who has 3 going at the same time.
Sorry, but this really doesn’t work for me.
You know what I think? The gentleman doth protest too much. And that post, well you only posted that after I mentioned the Eucharist thread.
Ryan and P7 (and anyone else):
Uhm, wait, a police officer who shoots and kills a perpetrator of a crime in self defense is NOT doing an act of love? First of all, a police officer is doing an act of love just by doing his or her job well. Jesus said,
Love, or at least Christian love, which is properly called charity, is not an emotion, but it is seated in the will of the person. You say that love is
Now this had me scratching my head. Wisdom, or Prudence, is the mother, the source of all virtues. You cannot have Charity without Prudence. From that definition alone, you cannot Love (properly defined) without Wisdom. All acts of Charity must be wise, or they cannot be called as such.
On the contrary: you may receive the Wisdom of God, but it still falls on you whether you act on that Wisdom or not. For remember, when you act on that Wisdom, it automatically becomes Charity. And to not act on that Wisdom is, well, nothing.
Hmm, I cannot argue with that.
No, Charity is truly what makes us like God. For as was said previously, as Charity is seated in the will, it must have action; and if action, then it must always have consequences. Thus, Charity always bear fruit. And as the Lord God says:
Got that right
Okay shall I bring out the violin now? Or was that playing in the background while you were writing this?Ben, Ben. All I can ask is what Jesus Himself asked:
“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”
(John 18:23)You accuse me of not believing in the Real Presence. I’ve shown that I do. You slander me by saying I’m only interested in winning some debate and not in the finding the truth. My last reply in this discussion thread to P7 and Ryan, as well as other replies, show that this accusation is also unfounded. Regarding your criticism that I’m one who is not yet a Catholic but wants to return to Catholicism, are there not many people here who meet that criteria with whom you don’t find any fault? Please tell me, then, what crime have I committed that warrants you to strike me?
Oopps before I say Adieu, let me post here two posts on the thread you started regarding Jesus’s ambiguity.Ben, Ben. All I can ask is what Jesus Himself asked:“If I said something wrong,” Jesus replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”
(John 18:23)You accuse me of not believing in the Real Presence. I’ve shown that I do. You slander me by saying I’m only interested in winning some debate and not in the finding the truth. My last reply in this discussion thread to P7 and Ryan, as well as other replies, show that this accusation is also unfounded. Regarding your criticism that I’m one who is not yet a Catholic but wants to return to Catholicism, are there not many people here who meet that criteria with whom you don’t find any fault? Please tell me, then, what crime have I committed that warrants you to strike me?
Too much time on his hands. He could have used it to read the Bible more often.joe370:
You are wasting your breath with Socrates, I’m afraid. Christianity is nothing more than an exercise in slow motion urgency, to him…He has helped me realize my shortcomings though: must spend less time here and more time at church; thank you Soc for your unwitting advice…
Nun:
Yes, gunning down a shooter to protect an innocent bystander or other potential victim would indeed be an act worthy of being called self-less love. But is killing for the sake of self-defense selfless? St. Paul the Apostle writes:
Fascinating! While I agree that the virtue of Love is not merely emotion, I cannot fathom how she can be devoid of compassion. Please explain why you believe Love has no feeling of affection for the one loved. This is a new concept I’d like to understand.
Yes, that is the conclusion reached. The reason being is that Wisdom has no emotion, but Love always has compassion. Therefore, Wisdom cannot possibly be the same as Love. Prudence, or doing what is wise and in one’s self-interest, does not appear to fit the proposed definition of Love, which is both selfless and compassionate. Rather than being a kind of Love, Prudence is more likely a kind of Wisdom. However, if you were to prove that Love has no compassion, this logical argument would collapse like a house of cards! For it stands on the premise that Love always has selfless emotion.
Yes, I completely agree with you, there. Generation is not as great as essence. The virtue that causes another exists for the sake of the one caused, and therefore cannot be greater.
Yes, I agree with you. I should have been more clear and explained that it I was speaking of Wisdom in the most perfect sense–Wisdom that is not just potential, but is actual by virtue of her actions.
Not sure I understand. Do you not agree that Love and Wisdom will be virtues we will possess in Eternity?
Yes, I partially agree. Justice is indeed an act of loving the one’s protected from those judged. However, I’m having difficulty understanding how Justice is an act of love for the objects of such judgment. I mean, how can causing someone to burn in hell for ever and ever be considered a loving act? Is it not a righteous act of deserved condemnation rather than love?
If I got it right, it’s only because people like you, P7 and Ryan set me straight!Got that right
I see. So you are saying I’m misrepresenting myself, but that I might not be like I used to be.Okay shall I bring out the violin now? Or was that playing in the background while you were writing this?
What I said was you are Socrates4Jesus and you know you are. And based on my past debate with you it really was not worth the effort. I am sure you know which debate I am talking about. Marsha, FathersKnowBest and Joe thought the same thing.
Maybe this time around you will try to learn because you have been found out and now you know that someone is on to you.
So friend this is my last response to you on this subject. I refuse to play your game and I am unsubscribing from this thread.
So Ciao.
Hmm, lemme think about itNun:
You are not barging in at all! I’m glad to continue the dialog if it will get me closer to the truth!
The tests were not just my own, but those suggested by others, as well as myself. As someone proposed a reason why Love is the greatest, I added that to the list of tests. If you have another reason why Love is the greatest of all virtues, please let me know.
Remember what I posted earlier:
You said you already have a family. So if you let yourself die so easily from a perpetrator’s attack, is not that an act of injustice, and therefore an act against charity, to them? They love you, and they need you. You must at least fight for your own life so that you can still love them, support them in this life.
It is simple really. There are times that all of your emotions are against doing what is right (for example, forgiving someone who greatly wronged you). And yet when you still do that right thing, even though all of your passions, all of your being, is against that choice, that is charity.Fascinating! While I agree that the virtue of Love is not merely emotion, I cannot fathom how she can be devoid of compassion. Please explain why you believe Love has no feeling of affection for the one loved. This is a new concept I’d like to understand.
Let me just quote from a famous commentary on St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica:Yes, I agree with you. I should have been more clear and explained that it I was speaking of Wisdom in the most perfect sense–Wisdom that is not just potential, but is actual by virtue of her actions.
Wisdom is a deep understanding of people, things, events or situations, empowering the ability to choose or act to consistently produce the optimum results with a minimum of time and energy. Since we will be united with God in Heaven, the Source of Wisdom, we will not only retain our wisdom, but also perfect it.
The thing is, to sin gravely without contrition until death is what merits Hell. With all the graces and opportunities given by God during one’s lifetime, to consistently and gravely sin until death is to refuse God’s love. Therefore upon death God will give what the impenitent sinner what he/she obviously wants: eternal damnation. And to grant what one wishes is an act of charity.Yes, I partially agree. Justice is indeed an act of loving the one’s protected from those judged. However, I’m having difficulty understanding how Justice is an act of love for the objects of such judgment. I mean, how can causing someone to burn in hell for ever and ever be considered a loving act? Is it not a righteous act of deserved condemnation rather than love?
Well, I hope you do spockrates. I’ll be praying for youIf I got it right, it’s only because people like you, P7 and Ryan set me straight!
… Remember what I posted earlier:
Agreed, Nun. But I’m not speaking of myself. I’m speaking of a police officer who has no family, and no friends, for he is new to the police department. In this example, killing a gunman is not an act of selfless love, it’s an act of self preservation. It might be wise, for it is prudent and just, but it is in no way loving the one who is gunned down and killed. But I’m wondering this: Do you believe that an act can never be moral unless motivated by selfless love?
Perhaps you are correct. But I’m thinking that what makes Love a virtue is when it takes on the divine quality of self-sacrifice for the benefit of another. But perhaps I’m wrong? I suppose one way to find out would be to compare a life devoted only to loving others with a life devoted to only loving oneself. Do you think both lives are pleasing to God? Or is the sacrificial life the kind that He wants for you and me? Jesus said this,
“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”
(John 15:13)
and this,
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
(John 13:34-35)
It seems to me that to love others as He loved us, we must adopt the kind of love that sometimes results in suffering, rather than benefiting, ourselves. Jesus wants us to practice is a love that puts the needs of others above our own–the kind of love that that loves others as he loved us. It seems to me that His suffering on the cross was not an act of self preservation. But what do you thinl? Would you say the kind of love that is pleasing to Him is the self-preserving kind, or the self-sacrificing kind?
Yes, well, I mentioned my aunt. After describing her, you suggested that we pray for her, as she lacked love. But my aunt is one who will commit an act one might think was loving, but she does it with a frown on her face. While she does the right thing, I doubt that she is doing it for the right reasons.
Yes, I agree. But I also wonder: What can be more supernatural than feeling compassion for those who hate you? Isn’t this what makes Love divine? Isn’t this the kind of Love Christ had for you and me?
Agreed. Love must be sincere by loving the unlovable with both compassion and action, I believe.
Yes, it is completely unreasonable to have compassion for one’s enemies and to sacrifice one’s only Son to benefit them. I completely agree: There is indeed something unreasonable about God’s love for you and me!
Are you saying that Wisdom is not divine, is not infused, is not a habit, does not incline one to cherish God for His own sake above all things, and does not incline one to cherish others for the sake of God?
Perhaps allowing someone to be eternally tormented in Hell is an act of divine love for the one who suffers for ever and ever without end. Amen. But I have my doubts. Please consider this example:
Yes, I agree with you, there! The lack of Purgatory in Protestant theologies is one reason why I eventually found Protestantism untenable.On the other hand, Purgatory is also a manifestation of God’s Charity, for in Purgatory all the effects of sin on one’s soul, all the impediments to Charity, are burned out by God’s Love, so that in Heaven one can finally love God in full joy and happiness.
Well, I hope you do spockrates. I’ll be praying for you
No, even maintaining your own self can be, and is, moral. Everyone has a moral obligation to take care of one’s self, because you cannot lose something you do not have in the first place. You must have a self to lose to love selflessly.
The love that Jesus wants from us is the love He requires of us in each moment we are in. Remember we are called the Church Militant, and like all soldiers we are called not only to fight, but also capable of fighting. There will be times that we have to strengthen ourselves, and times to use that strength against the enemy. There are times we have to take care of our lives, and times to give up that life whenever the Lord commands it.Perhaps you are correct. But I’m thinking that what makes Love a virtue is when it takes on the divine quality of self-sacrifice for the benefit of another. But perhaps I’m wrong? I suppose one way to find out would be to compare a life devoted only to loving others with a life devoted to only loving oneself. Do you think both lives are pleasing to God? Or is the sacrificial life the kind that He wants for you and me? Jesus said this,
“Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.”
(John 15:13)
and this,
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
(John 13:34-35)
It seems to me that to love others as He loved us, we must adopt the kind of love that sometimes results in suffering, rather than benefiting, ourselves. Jesus wants us to practice is a love that puts the needs of others above our own–the kind of love that that loves others as he loved us. It seems to me that His suffering on the cross was not an act of self preservation. But what do you thinl? Would you say the kind of love that is pleasing to Him is the self-preserving kind, or the self-sacrificing kind?
One cannot control emotions, for they come and go. But one can control the reactions to his/her emotions. There will be times that you cannot feel compassion, but those are not excuses to be compassionate, to act compassionately.
It is, but only if you do not try your best to change that loathing to compassion.
I cannot ever judge what Our Lord felt towards His executors while hanging on the cross, but I am quite certain that if He ever felt any hatred against those people, He would have stamped it down with His will and His own compassion for them.
Maybe, but I think it is more divine, more supernatural, to act lovingly with someone you hate with your whole being, to have your whole insides screaming, kicking, crying that no, I am not going to be good to that monster! but you do it anyway all for the love of God.
Not all the time. For we can also read these words of His from Revelation:
Uhm, wait a minute, I said that?Are you saying that Wisdom is not divine, is not infused, is not a habit, does not incline one to cherish God for His own sake above all things, and does not incline one to cherish others for the sake of God?
Remember what I said earlier:
Well, this police officer is obviously the carrier of one of the opportunities God has given to this poor woman. It is this officer’s duty at this very moment to make the woman reconsider what she is about to do, or even stop her against her own will, so that God’s will of giving her another opportunity would be fulfilled.
What is quite amusing for me is that Protestants acknowledge this need to be free of the effects of sin before going to Heaven; they however don’t call it Purgatory, they call it glorification.Yes, I agree with you, there! The lack of Purgatory in Protestant theologies is one reason why I eventually found Protestantism untenable.
Glad to help! And I’d appreciate if you pray for me too, spockrates. We all need thoseI’m enjoying the conversation and hope you will continue, Nun, if you have the time. I also appreciate your prayers, for God knows I need them!
OK, let’s please slow down and try to listen to, and understand, one another. (I like to kid that God gave me two ears and one mouth to remind me that I should listen twice a much as I talk!)