Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

[spockrates]

This is the center piece of Pauls teaching on the spiritual gifts. It applies to chapters 12-14.

Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way. (1 Cor 12:331)

The more excellent way is the love of the next chapter, which is “the” greatest of the greatest.

Good to hear from you again, my friend! Yes, I understand *what *the truth is. (And perhaps you might understand that I’m repeating myself for the sake of Ignatius, who is new to the conversation. My thought is that he might introduce some new idea that will help us both better understand the lovely virtue Love.)



But understanding what is true about Love is not as satisfying as knowing why it is true, I think. Don’t you? To the end of knowing why she is the greatest virtue, I’d like to ask you (if you have the time) to answer the question you and P7 have not yet answered:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=6207868&postcount=403

**_______________________________________
**
In fact, the logical assertion of this post applied to Solomon’s woman Wisdom might apply to all of the aforementioned lady virtues:

No virtue is greater than Love, for every other virtue (including Faith, Hope, Wisdom, and all of Wisdom’s children–whose names are Prudence, Temperance, Fortitude, Justice, to name a few) exists for the sake of Love.

• All other virtues are generation for the sake of an essence, and that essence is Love
  * All other virtues are a means to an end, and that end is Love
  * All other virtues are a cause of a good effect, and that good effect is Love
  * All other virtues bring about God’s will, and God’s will is Love
  * All other virtues guide us toward our ultimate goal, and that ultimate goal is Love

Do you think this newborn idea that you and P7 helped me deliver is a beautiful infant truth and the answer to the question why? Or would you say she is no living truth at all, but stillborn?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Is this a living truth and the reason why Love is greatest?

 

[ryanoneil]

Wisdom is NOT greater than Love, because:

• Wisdom is generation for the sake of an essence, and that essence is Love
• Wisdom is a means to a wise end, and that wise end is Love
• Wisdom is a cause of a good effect, and that good effect is Love
• Wisdom discerns God’s will, and God’s will is Love
• Wisdom guides us toward our ultimate goal, and that ultimate goal is Love

This maybe true, but I really can’t say when it comes to means, causes, and effects. Paul says love is the greatest precisely because it outlasts all the other gifts. (1 Cor 13:8) It never ends while the others do. Maybe it is just that simple.

 

[Cristian_B]

I believe that finally deciding which one of these gifts is the biggest piece of the puzzle won’t make a big difference. It is a puzzle after all: even is the smallest piece is missing, the puzzle is a failure. Whether wisdom is the greatest, or love is the greatest, it is irrelevant. You must have both.

I believe that the greatest of them all is the Word.

But there is something that troubles me confused: did Got create love trough the Word? Something like: “Let there be love!”

edit: since the Word is Jesus, and love is God. did He create Himself trough Jesus> Wasn’t Jesus created from God? This is quite puzzling.

 

[spockrates]

This maybe true, but I really can’t say when it comes to means, causes, and effects. Paul says love is the greatest precisely because it outlasts all the other gifts. (1 Cor 13:8) It never ends while the others do. Maybe it is just that simple.

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

(1 Corinthians 13:8)

Well, I’m thinking that to say there will be absolutely no knowledge of the truth (i.e., no Wisdom) in Heaven is, well, a belief lacking in knowledge (i.e., unwise). But St. Paul was known for being extremely wise. An Socrates tells you and me:

A wise man is not likely to talk nonsense. Let us try to understand him.

(Theaetetus, 152)

So let’s try to understand the Apostle. Does he mean no one will be able to discern the truth in Heaven? or does he mean something else? What do the very next verses he wrote tell you and me?

For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

(1 Corinthians 13:9-12)

My thought is that he is in no way saying we will have less knowledge (i.e., less of the virtue of Wisdom) but we will have more knowledge (i.e., more of the virtue of Wisdom). I’m also thinking that he is saying our Wisdom will be increased not just by quantity (e.g., knowing more truth than we know now) but also by quality (e.g., knowing with 100% certainty 100% of the time what is true and what is not).

In that sense, we will be like the angels. And in that sense, our God will be like the God Socrates worshiped, and like the God he told his disciples (on the eave of his execution) that he hoped to meet, and live forever in the presence of, after his death.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/socrates/deathofsocrates1.jpg

Socrates telling his followers he hoped to soon meet the only truly wise God.

 

[spockrates]

So I’m thinking you are quite correct, but only partially. Wisdom, as we know (and Solomon knew) Her, will not survive the grave. She, like us, will be resurrected into something more desirable, more beautiful, more wonderful. For she will be perfect in every way, and we will never fail to hear the whisper of her still, small voice ever again!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

How could Wisdom not fail to be at our side for all eternity?

That’s what I’m thinking. What about you, Ryan?

 

[spockrates]

I believe that finally deciding which one of these gifts is the biggest piece of the puzzle won’t make a big difference. It is a puzzle after all: even is the smallest piece is missing, the puzzle is a failure. Whether wisdom is the greatest, or love is the greatest, it is irrelevant. You must have both.

I believe that the greatest of them all is the Word.

But there is something that troubles me confused: did Got create love trough the Word? Something like: “Let there be love!”

edit: since the Word is Jesus, and love is God. did He create Himself trough Jesus> Wasn’t Jesus created from God? This is quite puzzling.

I am so glad you joined the dialog, Cristian! And I believe your insight is most helpful. Thank you for giving us the Wisdom God has given you!



If what you say is true, than neither Wisdom alone nor Love alone is good. To have Wisdom without Love is to not love, and not loving is contrary to the will of God. To have Love without Wisdom is not wise, and being unwise is likewise contrary to the will of God. You, me, Ryan, P7, Ignatius, et. al must all desire both if we desire to imitate and know and please God. Well said, Cristian! Well said.

http://www.tvgasm.com/shows/images/bsg/season3/cylons225/cylons225.jpg

Do we not need both Wisdom and Love at each of our sides
to fight the good fight of living for God?

 

[ryanoneil]

So I’m thinking you are quite correct, but only partially. Wisdom, as we know (and Solomon knew) Her, will not survive the grave. She, like us, will be resurrected into something more desirable, more beautiful, more wonderful. For she will be perfect in every way, and we will never fail to hear the whisper of her still, small voice ever again!

How could Wisdom not fail to be at our side for all eternity?

That’s what I’m thinking. What about you, Ryan?

Paul tells us the divine gifts are given to unite us with the Spirit’s mission- to build up all member of the Church and bring us all to salvation. So when salvation does come, 13:8 says that love never ends but the other gifts do. Sure sounds like love reaches perfection when we are embraced by the Trinity. Pehaps wisdom is not resurrected, but is instead replaced by a clear and direct vision of God. In other words, the mirror of wisdom goes away.

I’m just guessing! what do you think?

 

[spockrates]

Paul tells us the divine gifts are given to unite us with the Spirit’s mission- to build up all member of the Church and bring us all to salvation. So when salvation does come, 13:8 says that love never ends but the other gifts do. Sure sounds like love reaches perfection when we are embraced by the Trinity. Pehaps wisdom is not resurrected, but is instead replaced by a clear and direct vision of God. In other words, the mirror of wisdom goes away.

I’m just guessing! what do you think?

I guess it all comes down to see what seeing means and knowing what knowing is!



Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

(1 Corinthians 13:12)

I’m guessing that the words

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror

is talking about you and I not seeing the truth clearly (mirrors in St. Paul’s day were made of polished metal, not glass, so the reflection was not clear). But the words

then we shall see face to face.

are speaking of seeing the truth about God when we finally see Jesus face to face.

And I’m guessing that the words

Now I know in part

are speaking of not knowing the truth about God as fully as we will when we see Jesus face to face. But the words

then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

are speaking of knowing the truth about God fully when we see Him, even as He fully knows us now.

Isn’t St. Paul is speaking of Wisdom, which is the ability to see (recognize) and know (understand) the truth?

 

[ryanoneil]

I guess it all comes down to see what seeing means and knowing what knowing is!



Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

(1 Corinthians 13:12)

I’m guessing that the words

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror

is talking about you and I not seeing the truth clearly (mirrors in St. Paul’s day were made of polished metal, not glass, so the reflection was not clear). But the words

then we shall see face to face.

are speaking of seeing the truth about God when we finally see Jesus face to face.

And I’m guessing that the words

Now I know in part

are speaking of not knowing the truth about God as fully as we will when we see Jesus face to face. But the words

then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

are speaking of knowing the truth about God fully when we see Him, even as He fully knows us now.

Isn’t St. Paul is speaking of Wisdom, which is the ability to see (recognize) and know (understand) the truth?

I don’t know. Look what the CCC associates it with.

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:

164 Now, however, “we walk by faith, not by sight”; we perceive God as “in a mirror, dimly” and only “in part”. Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. The world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

2519 The “pure in heart” are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him. Purity of heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God, to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbor’s - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

How does that factor in?

 

[spockrates]

I don’t know. Look what the CCC associates it with.

163 Faith makes us taste in advance the light of the beatific vision, the goal of our journey here below. Then we shall see God “face to face”, “as he is”. So faith is already the beginning of eternal life:

164 Now, however, “we walk by faith, not by sight”; we perceive God as “in a mirror, dimly” and only “in part”. Even though enlightened by him in whom it believes, faith is often lived in darkness and can be put to the test. The world we live in often seems very far from the one promised us by faith. Our experiences of evil and suffering, injustice and death, seem to contradict the Good News; they can shake our faith and become a temptation against it.

2519 The “pure in heart” are promised that they will see God face to face and be like him. Purity of heart is the precondition of the vision of God. Even now it enables us to see according to God, to accept others as “neighbors”; it lets us perceive the human body - ours and our neighbor’s - as a temple of the Holy Spirit, a manifestation of divine beauty.

How does that factor in?

Sorry for being away, Ryan. Projects at work and reinstalling Windows at home kept me busy. And thanks for replying!



Yes, I agree that Wisdom will be much more than she is to you and me now. She will be more beautiful and more perfect and more known. The difference between our relationship to her now and then will be like the difference between a woman whom one is dating and a wife to whom one is married. For we will know God fully, as He fully knows us (cannot imagine how wonderful that will be to have no more questions but only answers)!

But won’t this be the same with Faith, too? I think so. The difference between our relationship with her now and then will be much different. For Faith is trust in the one who said He is the Truth, and we will trust Jesus more beautifully, more perfectly, more fully than is possible, now.

And how can you or I say anything differently about Love? Will she be less beautiful in Heaven than she is now? Will she be less perfect in Eternity than she is now? Will she be less experienced by us than she is now? By no means!

So it seems to me, Ryan, that as you and I are changed for good and for our good, so will all of the virtues we imperfectly possess and desire now be changed within us for good and for our good forever and ever. Amen.

Do you have an amen to that truth, too?

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry for being away, Ryan. Projects at work and reinstalling Windows at home kept me busy. And thanks for replying!



Yes, I agree that Wisdom will be much more than she is to you and me now. She will be more beautiful and more perfect and more known. The difference between our relationship to her now and then will be like the difference between a woman whom one is dating and a wife to whom one is married. For we will know God fully, as He fully knows us (cannot imagine how wonderful that will be to have no more questions but only answers)!

But won’t this be the same with Faith, too? I think so. The difference between our relationship with her now and then will be much different. For Faith is trust in the one who said He is the Truth, and we will trust Jesus more beautifully, more perfectly, more fully than is possible, now.

And how can you or I say anything differently about Love? Will she be less beautiful in Heaven than she is now? Will she be less perfect in Eternity than she is now? Will she be less experienced by us than she is now? By no means!

So it seems to me, Ryan, that as you and I are changed for good and for our good, so will all of the virtues we imperfectly possess and desire now be changed within us for good and for our good forever and ever. Amen.

Do you have an amen to that truth, too?

I’m still of the conviction that Love outshines the other divine gifts precisely because it outlasts them, meaning the others pass away.

 

[nuntym]

Spockrates,

First of all I am really sorry for the long absence. You can say I had a small crisis of faith for the past few weeks, to the point that I felt I was not fit to go to apologetics for a while. But that is all past now…I hope And I do hope we can continue our dialogue on this worthy subject.

OK, let’s please slow down and try to listen to, and understand, one another. (I like to kid that God gave me two ears and one mouth to remind me that I should listen twice a much as I talk!)



Sorry for being unclear, but I did not intend to imply that self love is immoral. I was asking if you think there is a difference between self love and selfless love. Is one kind of love better than the other? Why or why not?

Yes there is a difference, Spockrates, and it is this difference that shows Christian love, charity to be the greatest of all virtues. For you see, self love can exist by itself, as we all know. Selfless love, however, cannot exist without self love. Self love is, for selfless love, not only a means to an end —and that end is, well, selfless love—but it is also foundational.

Selfless love purifies self love, and gives it purpose. In fact, selfless love purifies and magnifies all the other values and virtues. Not only that: Selfless love demands from all the virtues. Have you not considered what St. Paul was trying to say in 1 Corinthians chapter 13?

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7)

Do you not realize that St. Paul was listing all of the virtues valued by God in man in describing what charity is? If any one of these virtues was not found in an action, then it was either an imperfect, or outright not an act of love.

In other words, this makes selfless love — charity — the greatest of all the virtues: it uses, commands all virtues, to lead all of them to itself, that it might lead you to God.

This all reminds me of what Thomas Green, a late Jesuit theologian and teacher, said about love. He said that people are afraid of loving God, because they are afraid that it will obliterate all other loves. And yet, when they have the courage to try to love God above everything else, these people become surprised, for they do not find their other loves to be obliterated, but instead purified, became more good; they are placed in the right places, found their meaning. They find that the love of God orders them like the solar system, each other love orbiting, giving glory to the central love, while the love of God gives light and warmth to the other loves.

In the interest of trying to listen to you and understand from where you are coming, I’ll stick to this one question before moving on to another. It’s clear the police officer has a choice: She can (1) practice self love by letting the woman jump to her death rather than risking her own life, or she can (2) practice selfless love by risking her life and trying to save the woman from jumping to her death. Please tell me: Which choice is the better of the two, and why?

The previous discussion should have clued you in to the answer:

It depends on the situation: which is the more wise choice, according to the situation? If the police officer does not use his/her wisdom and grace available to him/her to determine which choice is the better one, then it does not matter what he/she does, with respect to love, for love is not used, but foolishness.

 

[nuntym]

In the interest of trying to listen to you and understand from where you are coming, I’ll stick to this one question before moving on to another. It’s clear the police officer has a choice: She can (1) practice self love by letting the woman jump to her death rather than risking her own life, or she can (2) practice selfless love by risking her life and trying to save the woman from jumping to her death. Please tell me: Which choice is the better of the two, and why?

It depends on the situation: which is the more wise choice, according to the situation? If the police officer does not use his/her wisdom and grace available to him/her to determine which choice is the better one, then it does not matter what he/she does, with respect to love, for love is not used, but foolishness.

 

[spockrates]

I’m still of the conviction that Love outshines the other divine gifts precisely because it outlasts them, meaning the others pass away.

Ryan:

Thanks for sticking with the dialog, and my apologies for my absence. I appreciate your conviction, but must admit I don’t understand it, though I’d very much like to comprehend why what you say is true.

I’m currently of the conviction that Wisdom is the ability to discern what is true, and by wisdom, the truth is known. Are you saying that after death there is no discerning the truth or knowing what is true?

If that were the case, wouldn’t the afterlife be more like Nirvana and completely unlike Heaven?

 

[spockrates]

Spockrates,

First of all I am really sorry for the long absence. You can say I had a small crisis of faith for the past few weeks, to the point that I felt I was not fit to go to apologetics for a while. But that is all past now…I hope And I do hope we can continue our dialogue on this worthy subject.

Glad to have you back, Nun! Sorry to hear about your crisis. You don’t have to tell me, but do you think your experience taught you anything new about the nature of Faith, Hope, Love, or Wisdom? It’s my experience that God often takes what I’m beginning to understand in my head and puts me through a tough time to make it real as I’m forced to apply what I’ve learned.

Yes there is a difference, Spockrates, and it is this difference that shows Christian love, charity to be the greatest of all virtues. For you see, self love can exist by itself, as we all know. Selfless love, however, cannot exist without self love. Self love is, for selfless love, not only a means to an end —and that end is, well, selfless love—but it is also foundational.

Thank you for trying to explain. I’m embarrassed to say still having trouble understanding you, though.



I find that when something is difficult for me to wrap my mind around, an example helps. Please tell me, Nun, how was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross an example of Him loving Himself?

Selfless love purifies self love, and gives it purpose. In fact, selfless love purifies and magnifies all the other values and virtues. Not only that: Selfless love demands from all the virtues. Have you not considered what St. Paul was trying to say in 1 Corinthians chapter 13?

Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. (1 Corinthians 13:4-7)

“Love does not insist on its own way.”

is also translated as

“Love is not self-seeking.”

isn’t it?



Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking… .

NIV (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=NIV

Love is kind and patient,

never jealous, boastful,

proud, or 5rude.

Love isn’t selfish… .

CEV (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=CEV

Do you not realize that St. Paul was listing all of the virtues valued by God in man in describing what charity is? If any one of these virtues was not found in an action, then it was either an imperfect, or outright not an act of love.

In other words, this makes selfless love — charity — the greatest of all the virtues: it uses, commands all virtues, to lead all of them to itself, that it might lead you to God.

This all reminds me of what Thomas Green, a late Jesuit theologian and teacher, said about love. He said that people are afraid of loving God, because they are afraid that it will obliterate all other loves. And yet, when they have the courage to try to love God above everything else, these people become surprised, for they do not find their other loves to be obliterated, but instead purified, became more good; they are placed in the right places, found their meaning. They find that the love of God orders them like the solar system, each other love orbiting, giving glory to the central love, while the love of God gives light and warmth to the other loves.

I like the quote. But I have to wonder if an act of love for God or others might sometimes require being selfless by choosing to love God or others instead of oneself, or by choosing to not benefit oneself for the sake of benefiting God or others. Don’t you think?

The previous discussion should have clued you in to the answer:

It depends on the situation: which is the more wise choice, according to the situation? If the police officer does not use his/her wisdom and grace available to him/her to determine which choice is the better one, then it does not matter what he/she does, with respect to love, for love is not used, but foolishness.

You might be right. That remains to be seen. I’m interested in your explaining how Jesus’ suffering for you and I is an act of loving Himself.

http://static-wear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/172027__passion_l.jpg
**
Christ’s passion was for Himself?**

 

[nuntym]

Glad to have you back, Nun! Sorry to hear about your crisis. You don’t have to tell me, but do you think your experience taught you anything new about the nature of Faith, Hope, Love, or Wisdom? It’s my experience that God often takes what I’m beginning to understand in my head and puts me through a tough time to make it real as I’m forced to apply what I’ve learned.

Well, what the Lord was trying to tell me (I think) is that you may know something theoretically, like Faith, Hope, Love, and Wisdom, but that does not mean you know how to do it practically

Thank you for trying to explain. I’m embarrassed to say still having trouble understanding you, though.



I find that when something is difficult for me to wrap my mind around, an example helps. Please tell me, Nun, how was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross an example of Him loving Himself?



“Love does not insist on its own way.”

is also translated as

“Love is not self-seeking.”

isn’t it?



Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking… .

NIV (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=NIV

Love is kind and patient,

never jealous, boastful,

proud, or 5rude.

Love isn’t selfish… .

CEV (1 Corinthians 13:4-5)

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=CEV

I like the quote. But I have to wonder if an act of love for God or others might sometimes require being selfless by choosing to love God or others instead of oneself, or by choosing to not benefit oneself for the sake of benefiting God or others. Don’t you think?

You might be right. That remains to be seen. I’m interested in your explaining how Jesus’ suffering for you and I is an act of loving Himself.

http://static-wear.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/172027__passion_l.jpg
**
Christ’s passion was for Himself?**

In the end Jesus’ crucifixion may be all devoid of self love, as he laid down His Life for all of us, but think for a moment of Jesus’ life that culminates in Golgotha. The thing is, if Jesus had not taken care of Himself----if He had not eaten properly, rested when He can, played, exercised by His walking around Israel, laughed----He would have not the strength to reach that Place of the Skull after so much suffering while carrying His cross. In fact, if He let Himself be lynched by mobs as He was threatened numerous times in His ministry He would not be physically present for the Way of the Cross!

That is what I mean by self love being foundational and a means to an end for self less love: you take care of yourself----you love yourself----so that you can give your self to others, even, if needed, to lay your life for them.

 

[ryanoneil]

Ryan:

Thanks for sticking with the dialog, and my apologies for my absence. I appreciate your conviction, but must admit I don’t understand it, though I’d very much like to comprehend why what you say is true.

I’m currently of the conviction that Wisdom is the ability to discern what is true, and by wisdom, the truth is known. Are you saying that after death there is no discerning the truth or knowing what is true?

If that were the case, wouldn’t the afterlife be more like Nirvana and completely unlike Heaven?

Maybe you are correct and I’m way off, but I’m seeing wisdom included in the mirror of (13:12). The mirror is a mediator showing the reflection. When the perfect come the mirror isn’t need any more because we see face to face.

 

[nuntym]

Maybe you are correct and I’m way off, but I’m seeing wisdom included in the mirror of (13:12). The mirror is a mediator showing the reflection. When the perfect come the mirror isn’t need any more because we see face to face.

If I may add a point, ryanoneil, spockrates:

I don’t think Wisdom would be gone when we go to heaven. If that were so, then why would we have patron saints, especially of trades, professions, and conditions? Their intercessions for us would not be efficacious, or would be even superfluous, if their Wisdom on the particular trades, professions, or conditions during their lives on earth was not perfected when they went to Heaven.

 

[spockrates]

Well, what the Lord was trying to tell me (I think) is that you may know something theoretically, like Faith, Hope, Love, and Wisdom, but that does not mean you know how to do it practically

Yes, I suppose it is the real troubles of real life that makes our Faith, Hope, Love and Wisdom more real.

I mean, if one prays, “God, make me more patient,” one should not be surprised that God orchestrates events to transpire that try one’s patience!

In the end Jesus’ crucifixion may be all devoid of self love, as he laid down His Life for all of us, but think for a moment of Jesus’ life that culminates in Golgotha. The thing is, if Jesus had not taken care of Himself----if He had not eaten properly, rested when He can, played, exercised by His walking around Israel, laughed----He would have not the strength to reach that Place of the Skull after so much suffering while carrying His cross. In fact, if He let Himself be lynched by mobs as He was threatened numerous times in His ministry He would not be physically present for the Way of the Cross!

That is what I mean by self love being foundational and a means to an end for self less love: you take care of yourself----you love yourself----so that you can give your self to others, even, if needed, to lay your life for them.

Perhaps, Nun. But if we take the last hours of Christ’s life, it seems to me that there was not one selfish act, but only selfless love for God the Father and others, including you and me. He suffered and died for you and me, rather than for Himself. And one might say that the blood of the martyrs was spilled for motives of unselfish love for God and others. There are times, then, when Love–perhaps Love of the most beautiful and perfect and God-like kind–is completely devoid of self interest. It’s a love that gives rather than takes. That acts for the good of others rather than the good of oneself. That is committed for the sake of God rather than the sake of oneself. As St. Paul the Apostle so simply but profoundly said, we should be those who are always:

… remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

(Acts 20:35)

 

[spockrates]

Maybe you are correct and I’m way off, but I’m seeing wisdom included in the mirror of (13:12). The mirror is a mediator showing the reflection. When the perfect come the mirror isn’t need any more because we see face to face.

Then let’s gaze into this magic mirror that we might see ourselves more clearly, or at least allow me to see myself better than I do now, Ryan. For if you are way off in your aim, I’d have to admit that I’ve missed the target of truth in this discussion more often than you! But I think your aim, as well as mine, might be getting better.



I suppose that the mirror is a metaphor for Christ Himself, for that still, small voice reminds me of the inspiring words:

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

(Hebrews 12:2-3)

And as I gaze into this Messiah Mirror, I see perfection in every virtue–Wisdom (for He knows all), and Faith (for He trusted His all), and Hope (for He never gave up on you and me), and Love (for He never failed to love completely and perfectly).

Would you say, Ryan, that any of these virtues–Faith, Hope, Wisdom, or even Love–will be the same for all eternity? Or do you think that my untrustworthy Faith, and hopelessly inadequate Hope, and woefully ignorant Wisdom, and lacking Love will all be exchanged for something more perfect and more like that of Christ Himself?

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