Is Love really the greatest? (1 Corinthians 13:13)

  • Thread starter Thread starter spockrates
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
spockrates said:
Yes, I suppose it is the real troubles of real life that makes our Faith, Hope, Love and Wisdom more real.

I mean, if one prays, “God, make me more patient,” one should not be surprised that God orchestrates events to transpire that try one’s patience!

🙂
Click to expand...
Aye, aye 👍
spockrates said:
Perhaps, Nun. But if we take the last hours of Christ’s life, it seems to me that there was not one selfish act, but only selfless love for God the Father and others, including you and me. He suffered and died for you and me, rather than for Himself. And one might say that the blood of the martyrs was spilled for motives of unselfish love for God and others. There are times, then, when Love–perhaps Love of the most beautiful and perfect and God-like kind–is completely devoid of self interest. It’s a love that gives rather than takes. That acts for the good of others rather than the good of oneself. That is committed for the sake of God rather than the sake of oneself. As St. Paul the Apostle so simply but profoundly said, we should be those who are always:

… remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

(Acts 20:35)
Click to expand...
Yep! Exactly. And even the self love of charity is selfless.
 
nuntym said:
If I may add a point, ryanoneil, spockrates:

I don’t think Wisdom would be gone when we go to heaven. If that were so, then why would we have patron saints, especially of trades, professions, and conditions? Their intercessions for us would not be efficacious, or would be even superfluous, if their Wisdom on the particular trades, professions, or conditions during their lives on earth was not perfected when they went to Heaven.
Click to expand...
Maybe you are right.
 
spockrates said:
Then let’s gaze into this magic mirror that we might see ourselves more clearly, or at least allow me to see myself better than I do now, Ryan. For if you are way off in your aim, I’d have to admit that I’ve missed the target of truth in this discussion more often than you! But I think your aim, as well as mine, might be getting better.

👍

I suppose that the mirror is a metaphor for Christ Himself, for that still, small voice reminds me of the inspiring words:

Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.

(Hebrews 12:2-3)

And as I gaze into this Messiah Mirror, I see perfection in every virtue–Wisdom (for He knows all), and Faith (for He trusted His all), and Hope (for He never gave up on you and me), and Love (for He never failed to love completely and perfectly).

Would you say, Ryan, that any of these virtues–Faith, Hope, Wisdom, or even Love–will be the same for all eternity? Or do you think that my untrustworthy Faith, and hopelessly inadequate Hope, and woefully ignorant Wisdom, and lacking Love will all be exchanged for something more perfect and more like that of Christ Himself?
Click to expand...
I definately think the imperfect will pass away and whatever is left reaches perfection. Maybe I’m confussing charism and virtue. What is the difference?

Charism: a specific gift or grace of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefits the Church, given in order to help a person live out the Christian life, or to serve the common good in building up the Church (CCC 799, 951)

Virtue: An habitual and firm disposition to do the good. The moral virtues are acquired through human effort aided by God’s grace; the theoligical virtues are gifts of God (CCC 1803)

Then the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which include wisdom, are in (CCC 1830-1832).
 
ryanoneil said:
I definately think the imperfect will pass away and whatever is left reaches perfection. Maybe I’m confussing charism and virtue. What is the difference?

Charism: a specific gift or grace of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefits the Church, given in order to help a person live out the Christian life, or to serve the common good in building up the Church (CCC 799, 951)

Virtue: An habitual and firm disposition to do the good. The moral virtues are acquired through human effort aided by God’s grace; the theoligical virtues are gifts of God (CCC 1803)

Then the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which include wisdom, are in (CCC 1830-1832).
Click to expand...
Perhaps this entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia will help. Wisdom is considered by the Church an intellectual virtue. Faith, Hope and Love are considered theological virtues. There are also several moral virtues.

When P7 was participating in the conversation earlier, we determined that the moral virtues were kinds and examples of either Wisdom or Love, and sometimes kinds and examples of both.
 
ryanoneil said:
I definately think the imperfect will pass away and whatever is left reaches perfection. Maybe I’m confussing charism and virtue. What is the difference?

Charism: a specific gift or grace of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefits the Church, given in order to help a person live out the Christian life, or to serve the common good in building up the Church (CCC 799, 951)

Virtue: An habitual and firm disposition to do the good. The moral virtues are acquired through human effort aided by God’s grace; the theoligical virtues are gifts of God (CCC 1803)

Then the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which include wisdom, are in (CCC 1830-1832).
Click to expand...
Perhaps this entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia will help. Wisdom is considered by the Church an intellectual virtue. Faith, Hope and Love are considered theological virtues. There are also several moral virtues.

newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm

When P7 was participating in the conversation earlier, we determined that the moral virtues were kinds and examples of either Wisdom or Love, and sometimes kinds and examples of both.
 
ryanoneil said:
I definately think the imperfect will pass away and whatever is left reaches perfection. Maybe I’m confussing charism and virtue. What is the difference?

Charism: a specific gift or grace of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefits the Church, given in order to help a person live out the Christian life, or to serve the common good in building up the Church (CCC 799, 951)

Virtue: An habitual and firm disposition to do the good. The moral virtues are acquired through human effort aided by God’s grace; the theoligical virtues are gifts of God (CCC 1803)

Then the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which include wisdom, are in (CCC 1830-1832).
Click to expand...
Perhaps this entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia will help. Wisdom is considered by the Church an intellectual virtue. Faith, Hope and Love are considered theological virtues. There are also several moral virtues.

newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm

When P7 was participating in the conversation earlier, we determined that the moral virtues were kinds and examples of either Wisdom or Love, and sometimes kinds and examples of both. Thus, all virtues appear to be either intellectual virtues, or theological virtues, or both. One might say that every virtuous act is an act of Wisdom, or an act of Love, or an act of Faith, or an act of Hope. My thought is that all of these virtues follow us into Heaven. And as you and I are resurrected, so too shall our virtues be transformed into a more lasting and complete and perfect form. Hope might be the exception, although perhaps even she will experience a metamorphosis and become something like complete and perfect joy.

What do you think, Ryan?
 
ryanoneil said:
I definately think the imperfect will pass away and whatever is left reaches perfection. Maybe I’m confussing charism and virtue. What is the difference?

Charism: a specific gift or grace of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefits the Church, given in order to help a person live out the Christian life, or to serve the common good in building up the Church (CCC 799, 951)

Virtue: An habitual and firm disposition to do the good. The moral virtues are acquired through human effort aided by God’s grace; the theoligical virtues are gifts of God (CCC 1803)

Then the gifts and fruits of the Holy Spirit, which include wisdom, are in (CCC 1830-1832).
Click to expand...
Perhaps this entry from the Catholic Encyclopedia will help. Wisdom is considered by the Church an intellectual virtue. Faith, Hope and Love are considered theological virtues. There are also several moral virtues.

newadvent.org/cathen/15472a.htm

When P7 was participating in the conversation earlier, we determined that the moral virtues were kinds and examples of either Wisdom or Love, and sometimes kinds and examples of both. Thus, all virtues appear to be either intellectual virtues, or theological virtues, or both–the moral virtues being subcategories of the theological and intellectual virtues. One might say that every virtuous act is an act of Wisdom, or an act of Love, or an act of Faith, or an act of Hope, or an act of two or more of the four.

My thought is that all of these virtues follow us into Heaven. And as you and I are resurrected, so too shall our virtues be transformed into a more lasting and more complete and more perfect and more beautiful forms. Wisdom, like Christ, will be more omniscient. Faith, like Christ, will be more trusting and obedient. Love, like Christ, will be more selfless and caring and passionate. Hope might be the exception, although perhaps even she will experience a metamorphosis and become something like complete and perfect joy.

What do you imagine eternity holds for you and me, Ryan?
 
I believe Love is the greatest because our savior said “Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. These are the two greatest commandments.”
 
rdscheirer said:
I believe Love is the greatest because our savior said “Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind and love your neighbor as yourself. These are the two greatest commandments.”
Click to expand...
Thanks for replying, RD! What Jesus said is that to love is the greatest commandment, but does that make Love the greatest virtue? I wonder why Love might be greatest. I mean, if Love were truly great, she would be perfect. And if she were perfect, she would be self-sufficient. She would not need Faith, Hope and Wisdom to enable you and me to love.

But is it possible to love God without having any faith at all in God? If you don’t believe God exists, much less trust Him, then how is loving Him a possibility? And is it possible to love God if you are completely unwise (and have no knowledge) of how God wants you to love Him and others? If you have no wisdom at all, and all you do is unwise, then you are not likely, and possibly completely unable, to love in a way that pleases Him. For your misguided Love will have no Wisdom to guide her. And is there any hope of loving God without Hope? If we are completely in despair, and have no hope of loving God or being loved by Him, will this not hinder us? It’s hard to see how a person without any hope at all can go on living, much less go on loving a God in whom he has no hope.

Love without Faith, Wisdom and Hope, therefore, cannot possibly be perfect. Can she? She needs the other virtues as much as they need her. And since she is not perfect, she is not truly great. Though she might possibly be greater than Wisdom alone, or Hope alone, or Faith alone. What do you think?

🤷
 
Love is the greatest as we are all by being members of the Catholic Church part of the Mystical body of Christ.All the problems in this world are created as there is lack of love and the presence of Hate in its stead.
I wish to reproduce John 15-9 to13.
“I have loved you even as my father has loved me.Remain in my love.When you obey me
you remain in my love just as I obey my father and remain in his love.I have told you this so that you will be filled with my joy.Yes your joy will overflow.I command you to love each other in the same way I loved you.And heres how to measure it the greatest love is shown when people lay down their live for their friends”
The message is that even though you have doubts about the Church cultivate the goodness in everyone of us by being charitable to ones neighbour and shower our love and the Holy Spirit will instil in you the gift of Faith
 
antonabe said:
Love is the greatest as we are all by being members of the Catholic Church part of the Mystical body of Christ.All the problems in this world are created as there is lack of love and the presence of Hate in its stead.
I wish to reproduce John 15-9 to13.
“I have loved you even as my father has loved me.Remain in my love.When you obey me
you remain in my love just as I obey my father and remain in his love.I have told you this so that you will be filled with my joy.Yes your joy will overflow.I command you to love each other in the same way I loved you.And heres how to measure it the greatest love is shown when people lay down their live for their friends”
The message is that even though you have doubts about the Church cultivate the goodness in everyone of us by being charitable to ones neighbour and shower our love and the Holy Spirit will instil in you the gift of Faith
Click to expand...
Antonabe:

Yes, I understand. But please allow me to ask you this: Do you believe the radical Muslim who blows herself up and kills several Catholics does so because she believes she will lose God’s love, or because she will gain or remain in His love, after death?

🤷
 
spockrates said:
Antonabe:

Yes, I understand. But please allow me to ask you this: Do you believe the radical Muslim who blows herself up and kills several Catholics does so because she believes she will lose God’s love, or because she will gain or remain in His love, after death?

🤷
Click to expand...
My only answer to this is that there are Extremist in every religion including those in the Christian Faith.

Just because the scenario you paint here about certain Muslims who chose a suicide course of action to gain a so called noble objective doesn’t reflect the Muslim people as a whole.
 
spockrates said:
Antonabe:

Yes, I understand. But please allow me to ask you this: Do you believe the radical Muslim who blows herself up and kills several Catholics does so because she believes she will lose God’s love, or because she will gain or remain in His love, after death?

🤷
Click to expand...
A traditional Muslim believes in a God but does not associtae himself with the ideology of killing non Muslims.However a Radical Muslim carries out suicidal missions on a mistaken belief that he or she is pleasing Allah.No religion in this world would condone killing of another Human being.There are good forces in this world as well as evil forces.My firm belief is that the evil forces bring about indocrination of individuals to do evil things in this world.If there is the Doctrine of love propagated by all religions however persuasive the evil forces are love will conquer all and evil killings will be avoided.This is where study of Scripture and prayer is important to Christians as this keeps the evil forces at bay.
 
centurionguard said:
My only answer to this is that there are Extremist in every religion including those in the Christian Faith.

Just because the scenario you paint here about certain Muslims who chose a suicide course of action to gain a so called noble objective doesn’t reflect the Muslim people as a whole.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree Centurion. But my question was not whether her actions were extreme, but whether they could be motivated by love for her god.
 
antonabe said:
A traditional Muslim believes in a God but does not associtae himself with the ideology of killing non Muslims.However a Radical Muslim carries out suicidal missions on a mistaken belief that he or she is pleasing Allah.No religion in this world would condone killing of another Human being. …
Click to expand...
I suppose those who you call radicals would say they are committed to their god’s word.

Fight for the sake of God those who fight against you… Slay them wherever you find them. … Idolatry is more grievous than bloodshed.

The Koran (The Cow)

Those that suffered persecution for My sake and fought and were slain, I shall forgive them their sins and admit them to gardens watered by running streams, as recompense from God. God dispenses the richest recompense.

The Koran (The 'Imrans)
 
antonabe said:
… My firm belief is that the evil forces bring about indocrination of individuals to do evil things in this world.If there is the Doctrine of love propagated by all religions however persuasive the evil forces are love will conquer all and evil killings will be avoided.This is where study of Scripture and prayer is important to Christians as this keeps the evil forces at bay.
Click to expand...
You might be right, Antonabe. However, you have not answered my question, yet. Please tell me. Do you think it possible that one could commit suicide out of love for her god?

🤷
 
spockrates said:
You might be right, Antonabe. However, you have not answered my question, yet. Please tell me. Do you think it possible that one could commit suicide out of love for her god?

🤷
Click to expand...
No one has the right to take one’s life even for one’s God.God will not desire it.However if Satan motivates a person and gives him or her a mistaken notion that it would please God then he or she will take ones life.A good student of Islam and a pious one at that will not take one’s life even for his God because his God will reject it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top