Is Lucifer really evil?

[Nanotwerp]

Rabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?

 

[1newcatholic]

The two perspectives don’t necessarily cancel each other out, but arguing that the Devil is not evil would seem to be heretical, because the Devil is clearly an antagonist who rages against God and his saints in the book of Revelation.

 

[808Catholic]

Rabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?

God does not cause evil nor does God command His creatures (and Lucifer/Satan is a creature) to commit evil. Like humans, Lucifer/Satan can choose to do evil but it’s without God’s endorsement/consent. Unlike humans, Lucifer/Satan does not choose to do good and this is the gift of free will that God gave to us. Pray for God to give you the gift of discernment. God Bless you.

 

[RosslynV]

Satan is referred to as the evil one in the Bible.

 

[Petaro]

In the modern parlance, he is misguided by a range of environmental and developmental factors that have brought about a dysfunctional response. Proper therapy including intensive counselling is advised, with possible consideration of the use of aggressive drug therapy if considered appropriate.
Evil is always limited in its definition by its social and cultural context engendered by the ruling constructs of norms developed within a societal framework developed by a patriarchal capitalistic hegemony. We must not judge.

Scrape that! It is evil!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Rabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?

He’s evil, but he does have a job to do. So to some extent I think they’re right, but I’d have thought that a race of people who saw six million of their own go up in smoke in the chimneys of the concentration camps would realise the malignance of the power behind that scenario.

To me the twin mushrooms of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, coupled with the images of the starving, forlorn figures staring out through the wires of Auschwitz and all the other camps, and these days the millions of torn foetuses in abortion clinics, give an image of what the devil’s rule would be like if he got his way. He’s evil, and make no mistake.

Bit if God’s got a plan, then it’s obvious the devil is part of it, or he wouldn’t be there. So even he has a vocation, hideous as it is. Otherwise you’ve got a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God who had no idea what the devil was up to, or how man would react to the original temptation.

God knew all right, and He went ahead anyway, fully intending to insert Himself into human history as Jesus Christ, a Jew. In doing so, He drew the devil’s hatred towards that race as towards no other race - slavery in Egypt, the Assyrian dispersion and the Babylonian captivity, the Roman diaspora, the pogroms, and the Final Solution.

The devil’s evil all right, and yet he’s got a job to do. Which indicates God’s real kingdom is not of this world. This world is too caught up in the battle between God and the devil to have any real future.

 

[ready]

Rabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?

The Bible (the Word of God) says that Satan is the father of lies and a murderer from the beginning – Satan most certainly is evil! Please have nothing to do with rabbinical Judaism if you wish ot save your precious soul. God bless you.

 

[Flagstone]

I don’t know if I agree with this but I figured I would put it out there since it seems pertinent to the discussion. In the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics by Peter J. Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli, on page 140 they write “Even the Devil is good in his being. He is a good thing gone bad-in fact, a very good thing gone very bad.” Could someone more knowledgeable explain what “good in his being” means?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I don’t know if I agree with this but I figured I would put it out there since it seems pertinent to the discussion. In the Handbook of Catholic Apologetics by Peter J. Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli, on page 140 they write “Even the Devil is good in his being. He is a good thing gone bad-in fact, a very good thing gone very bad.” Could someone more knowledgeable explain what “good in his being” means?

I think what is missing in that description, and for that matter philosophy as a whole, is what we mean by “good”. Moral good? Good in the sense of capable? Intelligent? Beautiful? Powerful? Loving? Self sacrificing?

That the devil is intelligent is a given. He may once have been beautiful. He certainly has power. But his moral goodness, if he ever had any, has been thoroughly perverted. He is not loving, but is full of hatred. He doesn’t sacrifice himself for anyone - he expects everyone else to sacrifice themselves for him - that’s why he is so interested in promoting abortion. He not only destroys a human life each time an abortion takes place, but he also lays a strong claim on all those involved in the act. They’re his, unless they repent.

 

[Flagstone]

I think what is missing in that description, and for that matter philosophy as a whole, is what we mean by “good”. Moral good? Good in the sense of capable? Intelligent? Beautiful? Powerful? Loving? Self sacrificing?

That the devil is intelligent is a given. He may once have been beautiful. He certainly has power. But his moral goodness, if he ever had any, has been thoroughly perverted. He is not loving, but is full of hatred. He doesn’t sacrifice himself for anyone - he expects everyone else to sacrifice themselves for him - that’s why he is so interested in promoting abortion. He not only destroys a human life each time an abortion takes place, but he also lays a strong claim on all those involved in the act. They’re his, unless they repent.

I’ll go ahead and finish the paragraph “…If he(satan) had not had the greatest ontological goodness (goodness in his being) of a powerful mind and will, he could never have become as morally corrupt as he is. “Lilies that fester smell far worse than weeds.” Corruptio optima pessima, “the corruption of the best things are the worst things.” To be morally bad, you must first be ontologically good.”

I’m not versed in philosophy, maybe someone can explain what it is to be ontologically good.

 

[mikekle]

Rabbinical Judaism seems to have a view that makes more sense to me: That Lucifer isn’t evil, but is ordered by God to tempt humans. This makes more sense to me, because it would suit the need for the Serpent (AKA ‘Satan’) to be in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Are these beliefs heretical?

I agree with you, I tend to think Satan is just following Gods plan and doing what he was intended to do. I just have a hard time believing ANY angel made by God, knowing ALL they know (remember, they dont need faith, they KNOW things for a fact), so they know how powerful God is, there is just NO WAY an angel, as smart as Lucifer is said to be, would even think he could stand a chance against God and defeat him…Im sorry but there is no way an angel could think this.

Furthermore, Satan was supposedly able to convince 1/3 of the angels to also think this way…CMON…LOL one angel is bad enough, no way 1/3 of Gods entire league of angels would believe Satan stood a chance of defeating God and taking his place on the throne! only other possibility would be if God was not as all powerful as we are told he is, and I doubt this, so its more logical to think Satan and the other 1/3 of the angels are performing exactly the way God wanted them to.

They are the alternative, without Satan or any demons, what would temptation be like on earth, would it even exist? if it did, it probably wouldnt be that powerful, it takes Satans influence to sway peoples minds after all.

Oh yea, Satan tries to take Gods throne away from him, takes 1/3 of Gods angels away from him, and all satan got for this was kicked out of heaven, hell was created for them, but for some reason, God didnt send them there, but instead sent them to earth…how convenient, right by the humans, so they can be close enough to be that whisper in our ear, tempting us, etc. Oh, plus, satan retained and likely gained some powers/ abilities when he became ‘the enemy’…how many of Gods other angels have the power to influence humans to the degree satan does? Doesnt really seem like satan is being punished that much imo.

A JUST God would have turned Satan and all those other angels that sided with him, to dust right after attempting what satan supposedly tried…completely destroying them right away…imo.

I have discussed this before on here, there are quite a few who do not agree with this.

 

[Flagstone]

You make a lot of good points. Something to think about.

 

[Nanotwerp]

I agree with you, I tend to think Satan is just following Gods plan and doing what he was intended to do. I just have a hard time believing ANY angel made by God, knowing ALL they know (remember, they dont need faith, they KNOW things for a fact), so they know how powerful God is, there is just NO WAY an angel, as smart as Lucifer is said to be, would even think he could stand a chance against God and defeat him…Im sorry but there is no way an angel could think this.

Furthermore, Satan was supposedly able to convince 1/3 of the angels to also think this way…CMON…LOL one angel is bad enough, no way 1/3 of Gods entire league of angels would believe Satan stood a chance of defeating God and taking his place on the throne! only other possibility would be if God was not as all powerful as we are told he is, and I doubt this, so its more logical to think Satan and the other 1/3 of the angels are performing exactly the way God wanted them to.

They are the alternative, without Satan or any demons, what would temptation be like on earth, would it even exist? if it did, it probably wouldnt be that powerful, it takes Satans influence to sway peoples minds after all.

Oh yea, Satan tries to take Gods throne away from him, takes 1/3 of Gods angels away from him, and all satan got for this was kicked out of heaven, hell was created for them, but for some reason, God didnt send them there, but instead sent them to earth…how convenient, right by the humans, so they can be close enough to be that whisper in our ear, tempting us, etc. Oh, plus, satan retained and likely gained some powers/ abilities when he became ‘the enemy’…how many of Gods other angels have the power to influence humans to the degree satan does? Doesnt really seem like satan is being punished that much imo.

A JUST God would have turned Satan and all those other angels that sided with him, to dust right after attempting what satan supposedly tried…completely destroying them right away…imo.

I have discussed this before on here, there are quite a few who do not agree with this.

I don’t know why, but Jewish beliefs of things pertaining to the Old Testament just seem to make more logical sense to me. . I’m not the only one who feels this way, at least.

 

[thistle]

I don’t know why, but Jewish beliefs of things pertaining to the Old Testament just seem to make more logical sense to me. . I’m not the only one who feels this way, at least.

As a Catholic you may not accept beliefs that contradict Church teachings.

 

[thistle]

I don’t know why, but Jewish beliefs of things pertaining to the Old Testament just seem to make more logical sense to me. . I’m not the only one who feels this way, at least.

Catholics may not accept beliefs that are contrary to Church teachings.

With regard to Satan being evil or not please see below:

CCC 2851 In this petition, evil is not an abstraction, but refers to a person, Satan, the Evil One, the angel who opposes God. The devil (dia-bolos) is the one who “throws himself across” God’s plan and his work of salvation accomplished in Christ.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I don’t know why, but Jewish beliefs of things pertaining to the Old Testament just seem to make more logical sense to me. . I’m not the only one who feels this way, at least.

They often get into a depth of thinking with regard to their Scriptures (after the Old Testament is the Jewish Scriptures, whereas the New Testament is the Christian Scriptures), than we do. They have a history of debating and investigating the text.

I even heard our Archbishop say we can learn a lot from the Jewish Rabbis in regard to the Old Testament.

But if Christ says the devil is a liar and a murderer from the beginning, then that outweighs any whitewash by anybody else, no matter who they are.

 

[mikekle]

I think we can all agree on one thing…Angels, no matter if they are evil or good, are much more intelligent than any human…can we all agree on this?

OK, as humans, even we recognize how all powerful God is, and absolutely NOTHING could ‘throw a wrench’ into his plan, even a coup attempt by a large group of angels.

If we, as humans can recognize this, why would a much smarter angelic being think for one moment he stood a chance of overthrowing God? If you can answer that regarding one angel (Satan), then take it a step further…we must now admit, along with Satan, 1/3 of the ENTIRE amount of angels ALSO feels its possible to overthrow God…??? lol, something not right about that imo.

Theres really only 2 possibilities here…

1.) God is not as all powerful as we are led to believe…(VERY unlikely)

2.) There is a large part of this puzzle we have not been told or had explained to us, or we cannot comprehend this.

I think #2 is more likely, even bible scholars admit there is alot we dont know and cant know about the nature of God and his actions. Maybe the story of Satan/fallen angels was just something made up for our benefit, when really, Satan is truly a faithful servant of God, following his orders to a T.

Kind of like when a young child asks where babies come from…of course we dont give them the real explanation, we know they cant understand it, so we give them a story that will make sense to them for the time being, until they get older…Maybe its possible, as humans, Satans nature, in regards to God and his plan, is just something we cant understand with our human brains.

 

[Aaahm28]

Forget about the devil and stop dwelling on him. Who is that guy anyway. Discard him and his ways and just love God

 

[Nanotwerp]

Forget about the devil and stop dwelling on him. Who is that guy anyway. Discard him and his ways and just love God

We’re not told about him from the Bible and Tradition just to forget about him.

 

[thistle]

We’re not told about him from the Bible and Tradition just to forget about him.

All you have to remember is that he is evil, the Church teaches he is evil and that you should avoid sinning for if you die unrepentant you will be joining him forever.