C
Castello
Guest
Of course, choosing to lie and assuming you will ask forgivness later may lead to the sin of presumption.
Why not just resolve to tell the truth or say nothing at all.
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Why not just resolve to tell the truth or say nothing at all.
T
thistle
Guest
The key is who does not have the right to know the truth. We had one thread where someone was trying to argue that the person for whom a surprise party was being thrown had no right to know the truth. Well of course that is ridiculous.
Mental reservation/discreet language can be used according to the CCC:
CCC 2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication.** The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good** are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.
The Church teaching is that you can stay silent or use discreet language. It does not teach you can blatantly lie (which implies to me something more than discreet language).
R
Rascalking
Guest
I’ll keep that in mind when I travel back in time and protect the innocent from wrongful persecution.
I’ve always intellectually undertstood this “Never lie” argument, but I’ve never worried about it.In the rare case something like this happened (protecting a jew from Nazis, etc) I’d blantaly lie to a Nazi officer. I wouldn’t lose a wink of sleep over it. In fact, and this isn’t meant to pejorative, so don’t take it that way-I think people who wouldn’t lie to the Nazi guards would feel morally superior as they watched innocent people die.
R
Rascalking
Guest
Yikes! Turns out anything to do is a sin. Better be careful on this one than…
J
Jaypeeto4
Guest
The Bible says that God hates a lying tongue.
So if we lie, we need to apologize to God, ask forgiveness, confess to the priest,
and resolve to try, with God’s grace, not to do it anymore.
Of course, unless we are already saints, we are going to fail in this sometimes.
It is almost impossible not to lie sometimes.
But it is always undesirable.
As for lying to a Nazi officer?
I agree with the poster who said that he would not lose a wink of sleep
over lying to one of those murdering rats.
So if we lie, we need to apologize to God, ask forgiveness, confess to the priest,
and resolve to try, with God’s grace, not to do it anymore.
Of course, unless we are already saints, we are going to fail in this sometimes.
It is almost impossible not to lie sometimes.
But it is always undesirable.
As for lying to a Nazi officer?
I agree with the poster who said that he would not lose a wink of sleep
over lying to one of those murdering rats.
T
thistle
Guest
Using the mental reservation technique means you don’t actually have to lie!
For example, if the Nazi asks you if there are any Jews in your house you can say out loud “there are no Jews in my house” and complete the sentence mentally by adding “that I want you to find out about or hand over to you”. The Nazis only hear half the reply but God hears the whole reply which is not a lie.
I
Infiltrator
Guest
Before we can apologize to God and ask his forgiveness, confess to the priest and resolve to try, with God’s grace, not to do it anymore, we have to apologise to the one we lied to. There is 2 apologies to make and we are called first to make it right with the other person
Lying to a Nazi officer is just as sinful. We need to be truthful in all actions.
Lying to a Nazi officer is just as sinful. We need to be truthful in all actions.
B
bbentrup
Guest
You do not have to, nor should you, apologize to another person for a past sin if such an apology would be a net loss for the one wronged, even if you are truly repentant. This could include many reasons such as their embarrassment, awkwardness over a triviality, timing, resentment, or their own sins that they haven’t dealt with. In such cases, better to offer it up to God and try to do a work of charity for someone in need. Correct discernment is key.
O
Owlpride
Guest
So innocent life isn’t important, but lying to human garbage like Nazis is? How could you sleep at night?
I don’t believe this.
I don’t believe this.
T
thistle
Guest
I showed you in an earlier post how you can answer the Nazis without lying and so protecting innocent lives. Did you not read my post or are you just ignoring it anyway?
O
Owlpride
Guest
I’m ignoring it, thank you.
Love you bunches. Does your attiude win you converts?Do you go out of your way to be cold and legalistic? Unemtional?
C
Castello
Guest
First of all, every human being is created in the image and likeness of God. We are called to love our enemies, we cannot call someone God created “human garbage”.
Where did anyone say human life is not important? What is important is striving to gain perfection (as the Bible teaches us).
When the Nazis suspect you of hiding Jews, they honestly did not ring the bell like a polite census taker and say “Pardon me, are you hiding any Jews”. Householder says “No, we are not”. Nazi officer says “thank you, have a nice day” and goes next door. Really, do you think that is they way it went down?
The Nazis suspect you of hiding Jews, they are going to come in, ask, ask again, search your house, start torturing you and your family… In the midst of all that, yep, your lie would most likely be a venial sin. IF you live through it, you can ask forgivness. If the Nazi’s slit your throat, you will spend time in purgatory for a venial sin - it is still a sin.
O
Owlpride
Guest
Nazis are garbage. Period.
T
thistle
Guest
That’s why they have no right to know the truth and I showed you how that can be done without lying!!
R
Rascalking
Guest
Thanks for showing us Thistle. Without you showing all us dummies, how could we make it through life?!
B
Bookcat
Guest
2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."280 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."281
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.
2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.
So one is not to lie. It is a sin.
What then can one do?
2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. the duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.282
B
Bookcat
Guest
The above being said and with our seeking to follow Christ always and live the truth and avoid lies:
Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…
God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way)
Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. Something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.
But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.
And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such…
Now lets say one is in the very serious event of the Nazi at the door… and one can not find those discreet words…and others lives are at stake …and one thus ends up lying. What then? Well of course one should have found the other way. But in our weakness we sin …indeed we commit venial sins daily …hence they are called at times “daily sins” for which we pray daily “forgive us our trespasses”…and certainly ones culpability will likely be even further reduced by the event of the Nazi’s with the guns at your door…so ones venial sin will be reduced to an even smaller venial sin…which God in his knowing mercy can wipe away as one glances at the Crucifix with prayer after the Nazi’s leave…
God knows that in our seeking to live the varied virtues in our lives we will have venial sins in the process…that we being “saints” …being a new creation in Christ in the state of grace…in charity …living in Christ will still have “daily sins” to pray for. He loves us and continues to purify us with his love. (Not that such is an excuse to not seek to overcome our sins more and more in our lives …nor ought we seek or plan to lie in this case …but rather seek to find the right way)
Now all this does not make it “good” to lie. Or not a sin to lie. Nor does the ends in this circumstance “justify” the means of the lie. It remains a lie. A sin. But so too does the intemperance that one exhibited that morning at breakfast with too many eggs or the little anger one expressed at ones spouse that afternoon. If one falls here too…it will be another venial sin. Another weakness. Something that ought not have happened. One ought to have found a good way.
But it is somewhat understandable that it may happen in such events of Nazi’s at the door… even to Christians. To saints.
And there is really no point in trying to argue too much about such…
B
Bookcat
Guest
Catechism:
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
Of course an important question is: …“is such and such” a lie.
Or to put it another way…“objectively” (in the object) is it something else…such as discreet language, legit mental reservation etc.
1753 A good intention (for example, that of helping one’s neighbor) does not make behavior that is intrinsically disordered, such as lying and calumny, good or just. the end does not justify the means. Thus the condemnation of an innocent person cannot be justified as a legitimate means of saving the nation. On the other hand, an added bad intention (such as vainglory) makes an act evil that, in and of itself, can be good (such as almsgiving).39
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P5R.HTM
Of course an important question is: …“is such and such” a lie.
Or to put it another way…“objectively” (in the object) is it something else…such as discreet language, legit mental reservation etc.
C
chosen_people
Guest
Although Christians often speak of “Judeo-Christian” ethics and morality, although many Christians seriously believe that Christianity is merely “Judaism with Jesus”, the example of lying to the Nazi in order to not reveal where the Jews are hidden, is an excellent example to show just how conceptually different Judaism is from Catholicism.
Catholicism is a dogmatic religion which deals with absolutes, in Catholicism there is one true religion, one way to salvation. All abortions are murder. All lying is a sin.
In Catholicism, the Hellenistic principle of the responsibility of the individual to oneself is also found.
Taking there concepts together it is deemed that if the Catholic lies to the Nazi and says he does not know where the Jews are hidden, then he has committed a sin. If he doesn’t lie and doesn’t sin but reveals the hiding place of the Jews, the Catholic also bears no personal responsibility for the fact that the Nazi will murder the Jews. This is an act of the individual Nazi and the Catholic has no wish for it to occur and therefore bears no responsibility whatsoever for the murder of the Jews.
Judaism on the other hand is an intellectual religion which demands questioning and reasoning. In Judaism we can not place all acts of lying in all situations as being equal. We must consider overlying principles. The major principle in our example is the absolute supremacy of the the principle of the sanctity of life or "Pikuach Nefesh (פיקוח נפש) - This principle is so valued in Judaism it over rides all of Torah with a few extreme exceptions (for instance murder, idolatry)
The second thing is the anti-Hellenistic, underlying principle in Judaism, that we all have responsibility to our fellow man. In Judaism, an individual who brings about the deaths of those in hiding by revealing their hiding places, carries responsibility for their deaths.
So while the Catholic will argue that if he lies to the Nazi he is committing a sin, in Judaism, a person who does not lie to the Nazi and reveals where the individuals are hiding, is the one committing the sin.
Catholicism is a dogmatic religion which deals with absolutes, in Catholicism there is one true religion, one way to salvation. All abortions are murder. All lying is a sin.
In Catholicism, the Hellenistic principle of the responsibility of the individual to oneself is also found.
Taking there concepts together it is deemed that if the Catholic lies to the Nazi and says he does not know where the Jews are hidden, then he has committed a sin. If he doesn’t lie and doesn’t sin but reveals the hiding place of the Jews, the Catholic also bears no personal responsibility for the fact that the Nazi will murder the Jews. This is an act of the individual Nazi and the Catholic has no wish for it to occur and therefore bears no responsibility whatsoever for the murder of the Jews.
Judaism on the other hand is an intellectual religion which demands questioning and reasoning. In Judaism we can not place all acts of lying in all situations as being equal. We must consider overlying principles. The major principle in our example is the absolute supremacy of the the principle of the sanctity of life or "Pikuach Nefesh (פיקוח נפש) - This principle is so valued in Judaism it over rides all of Torah with a few extreme exceptions (for instance murder, idolatry)
The second thing is the anti-Hellenistic, underlying principle in Judaism, that we all have responsibility to our fellow man. In Judaism, an individual who brings about the deaths of those in hiding by revealing their hiding places, carries responsibility for their deaths.
So while the Catholic will argue that if he lies to the Nazi he is committing a sin, in Judaism, a person who does not lie to the Nazi and reveals where the individuals are hiding, is the one committing the sin.
B
bbentrup
Guest
The foundation of this argument makes no sense. Take any of the apostles. For them the morality of this question would not have changed before or after they met Jesus. This goes also for any Jew or Christian. Lying is always sinful cannot be argued. What constitutes lying is well worth investigating, and I would ascribe to the Janet Smith article (linked on page 1) that not all falsehoods are lies, and that some falsehoods can be non-sinful.
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