Is lying always sinful?

[Newbie2]

Lying is always sinful but not always grave.

CCC 2488 does not say or imply that some lies are permitted. It means not everyone has the right to be told the truth, which is different.

It “can” be a grave sin (mortal sin…means the same)…but it need not be.

Lies are often venial matter.

(of course that does not mean one is to do them!)

2484 The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.

(see whole treatment in the CCC)

Using the mental reservation technique means you don’t actually have to lie!

For example, if the Nazi asks you if there are any Jews in your house you can say out loud “there are no Jews in my house” and complete the sentence mentally by adding “that I want you to find out about or hand over to you”. The Nazis only hear half the reply but God hears the whole reply which is not a lie.

That’s why they have no right to know the truth and I showed you how that can be done without lying!!

It’s still deception, which is basically a lie. There’s no way to sugar-coat such a “technique” in order to get out of a sin.

In the case of lying to a Nazi, it would seem pretty clear that the Almighty would forgive such a venial sin, given the circumstances.

There is no “technique” that gets one out of sin. Better, methinks, to accept that lying with the intent to deceive is sinful, regardless of whether the person being lied to is a sinner or a saint.

As far as the sin of presumption goes, that’s a good point. If one’s conscience says that such a deception/lie is OK under the circumstances, then (excuse the pun) presumably presumption would not exist.

As far as Santa clause, the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, ghost story, etc are concerned, we are telling our children about the “myth” or story of Santa. It’s basically the same as telling them a bedtime story and the kid believing it were true. At some point, we do let on that it is a story, myth, legend, etc.

If telling a kid a story at an age where they could not discern fact from fiction were a sin, we would not be able to tell children’s stories without a disclaimer. In fact, storybooks with stories from the bible would have to have disclaimers as we in many cases do not know specifically and accurately what was said and done or what something may have looked like.

lol “This is an artist’s conception of Jesus walking on water. The artwork may or may not accurately represent the appearance of the Lord Jesus in terms of features, hair style, clothing, gait, posture or expression. His actual words may be paraphrased for purposes of clarity and brevity, and there may be inaccuracies or disputes among biblical scholars as to the correct translation of his actual words.”

In any case, whether or not to deceive someone would seem to be governed best by a well-formed conscience. My guess is that few such consciences would tell their “owners” that it was OK to say “Sure, we’ve got a few Jews in the basement for you to torture to death”.

 

[chosen_people]

The foundation of this argument makes no sense. Take any of the apostles. For them the morality of this question would not have changed before or after they met Jesus. This goes also for any Jew or Christian. Lying is always sinful cannot be argued. What constitutes lying is well worth investigating, and I would ascribe to the Janet Smith article (linked on page 1) that not all falsehoods are lies, and that some falsehoods can be non-sinful.

Not only can the morality be argued, but as I stated, from a Jewish perspectuve, the immoral and sinful act is in not lying to protect those in danger. I agree that this should always be the case in all times. I find no reason to redefine the obvious and understood definition of a lie.

 

[JNino]

Very true. To use your own example, a Nazi does not have to know about the Jews you are hiding; so, do not tell him. Remain mum. Chances are, you would be horribly tortured and then blurt it all out anyway; but you would have acted correctly both in the eyes of God and man. To lie about his whereabouts is wrong, but because your reason to lie is noble, it would most likely be a venial sin. That is the way I look at it.

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? James 2:25 RSV. In a nutshell I don’t think you’re correct in your logic. Remember we defend life.

 

[PaperPlate]

If one came up to a car accident and saw someone who was suffering severely for some time before dieing, could one lie to the family and say the person died without suffering/peacefully/painlessly etc?