Is marriage worth it?

[robwar]

Here someone who is contra Marriage:
The Church teaches as a dogma that celibacy is better than marriage:

Council of Trent, pg. 225: “If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema.”

Also marriage will give you more pain than happiness and leads more often into sin(personal observation of other people).

that is a very sad view and if the Church teaches contra marriage then how do you think children should come into the world and be raised? God’s first commandment is “be fruitful and multiply”. Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. One misquote about marriage from the Counsel of Trent taken out of context does not prove this.

 

[horselvr]

Only my opinion:

Marriage is a **** shoot. People change. What you may agree upon today doesn’t necessarily hold true 15 yrs down the road. Add to that mental illness and you better fasten your seat belt because it’s gonna be an extremely bumpy ride. Meh!

Having said that, I find this statements below by Strive4humility very, very troubling:

**I dutifully took the abuse that was given, because I saw it as service to the Lord and the commitment I made to His sacrament. **

"How do you answer this question-enable the abuse of your children and show them that accepting such abuse from your spouse is necessary, or leave the marriage, break God’s union, commit the unthinkable with a divorce and annulment?"

The unthinkable is keeping the children and yourself in this horrible situation. I feel you did the right thing by getting out.

Otherwise, this type of thinking has the potential to put women and children in an early grave.

God does not want you and the children to be abused. Never should you just accept that this is just your lot in life.

 

[Norseman82]

Here someone who is contra Marriage:
The Church teaches as a dogma that celibacy is better than marriage:

Council of Trent, pg. 225: “If anyone saith that the marriage state is to be preferred before the state of virginity, let him be anathema.”

Also marriage will give you more pain than happiness and leads more often into sin(personal observation of other people).

Just because the church says that A is better than B does not mean that it is against B. On the contrary, I have heard in talks that discernment is a choice between 2 goods. In fact, I remember the cartoons in the old Baltimore Catechism that illustrated this point, showing a picture of marriage and family life with the caption “This is good” and next to it a picture of religious life with the caption “This is better”.

Additionally, even though virginity may be the “superior” calling, it is not the “natural” calling; according to CCC 1603, marriage is the vocation that is written into our nature. Also, not everyone can handle the “superior” calling; it requires supernatural graces.

 

[Andre1000]

that is a very sad view and if the Church teaches contra marriage then how do you think children should come into the world and be raised? God’s first commandment is “be fruitful and multiply”. Jesus first miracle was at a wedding. One misquote about marriage from the Counsel of Trent taken out of context does not prove this.

Just because the church says that A is better than B does not mean that it is against B. On the contrary, I have heard in talks that discernment is a choice between 2 goods. In fact, I remember the cartoons in the old Baltimore Catechism that illustrated this point, showing a picture of marriage and family life with the caption “This is good” and next to it a picture of religious life with the caption “This is better”.

Additionally, even though virginity may be the “superior” calling, it is not the “natural” calling; according to CCC 1603, marriage is the vocation that is written into our nature. Also, not everyone can handle the “superior” calling; it requires supernatural graces.

I must say sorry! Originally I wanted to say something against marriage but changed that and forgot to take the first line out. Actually I just wanted to say(after I changed my mind), that virginity is superior to marriage not that it is evil or something like that. Again Sorry.
Actually Trent said somewhere else(I forgot where) that marriage is very good.

 

[EasterJoy]

Only my opinion:

Marriage is a **** shoot. People change. What you may agree upon today doesn’t necessarily hold true 15 yrs down the road. Add to that mental illness and you better fasten your seat belt because it’s gonna be an extremely bumpy ride. Meh!

If you mean that something over which you do not have total personal control is a **** shoot, then life is a **** shoot. It does not follow that either life in general or married life in particular is always an “extremely bumpy ride.” It is also not as if the alternative to the venture of marriage–life with yourself and for yourself, because you are too afraid of a bad outcome to make a commitment to a mere frail human being–is always such a bowl of cherries.

The main thing is that what you choose, you choose for the sake of serving God through the imitation of Christ: But seek first the kingdom (of God) and his righteousness, and all these things will be given you besides. Do not worry about tomorrow; tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient for a day is its own evil. Matt. 6:33-34

If you choose your vocation out of worry for what could go wrong, you’ll never have the courage to choose anything. Choose to please God, and take what comes.

I find this statements below by Strive4humility very, very troubling:

**I dutifully took the abuse that was given, because I saw it as service to the Lord and the commitment I made to His sacrament. **

"How do you answer this question-enable the abuse of your children and show them that accepting such abuse from your spouse is necessary, or leave the marriage, break God’s union, commit the unthinkable with a divorce and annulment?"

The unthinkable is keeping the children and yourself in this horrible situation. I feel you did the right thing by getting out.

Otherwise, this type of thinking has the potential to put women and children in an early grave.

God does not want you and the children to be abused. Never should you just accept that this is just your lot in life.

This is correct, and an extremelly important clarification to make! Offering yourself to an abuser when you could refuse to accept the intolerable behavior is not service to God, but rather offering the abuser a near occasion of sin. It has to be realized that some victims are psychologically bound to their abusers in ways that are difficult to see one’s way out of from the inside, so I don’t mean this as a judgment on the victims, but as a principle by which the abused can see their way to leave an abusive situation with a good conscience, and not merely without a bad conscience.

This principle is even in Canon Law:
**Can. 1153 §1. **If either of the spouses causes grave mental or physical danger to the other spouse or to the offspring or otherwise renders common life too difficult, that spouse gives the other a legitimate cause for leaving, either by decree of the local ordinary or even on his or her own authority if there is danger in delay.

IOW, you don’t have to wait until you are actually abused, if the danger is real, you can leave if the other spouse simply makes it unrealistic to hope that you can live together in peace without a substantial sea change, and you do not have to ask for permission to separate if there is danger in delay. It does not have to be grave danger, but merely a real danger. The marriage does not have to have a presumed defect, either: this is in the category of “separation with the bond remaining”. The choice of one spouse to betray their state in life by being a threat to their spouse and family instead of a protector and supporter is sufficient reason to severe the common conjugal life that would otherwise be a duty, at least until the situation is remedied.

Once you are out of imminent danger or the strife-ridden situation, you can approach your pastor for counsel on what to do next. It is to be hoped the marriage can be repaired, but it does no good to permit offense to be stacked upon offense while waiting for that process to even be started (if it ever is).

 

[horselvr]

Easterjoy:

It is my opinion and only my opinion that marriage in and of itself is a ****shoot meerly because people change and there’s plenty of temptations out there.----period.

I said nothing of total personal control—you have.

I also said that marriage to someone with a mental illness is “an extremely bumpy ride” not marriage in and of itself. Generally speaking, marriage is what both parties make of it and are willing to put into it.

You are putting words into my mouth that I have not spoken or meant.

Sorry, but I have been there, I have done that, and for me and only me, I don’t believe I will wear that tee shirt again at least not in the near future. I have already been down that road thank you. I am very content being single.

“If you choose your vocation out of worry for what could go wrong, you’ll never have the courage to choose anything. Choose to please God, and take what comes.”

I think you are off on a tangent.

 

[styrgwillidar]

All life is risk. Everything has it’s potential benefits and potential liabilities. Each decision is taking a chance.

Married 21 years, divorced for 2 after a 6 month separation. My marriage had to happen because my kids had to be. They are truly part of God’s plan, although there has been a lot of pain involved as I did not want the divorce. The marriage had it’s ups and downs but I would not forego any of the pain or wish away the marriage because it would mean they wouldn’t exist.

If I hadn’t asked her to marry me I would have always wished I had, looked in the mirror at 80 and wondered. Well, at least I know how that part of the story has gone (so far).

You can prepare for marriage by getting to know your partner as best as you can. Discussing how you’ll handle all the major issues in life- kids, finances, extended family, sickness. But talk is cheap and whiskey costs money- lots of folks don’t handle things once they are in the situation the way they thought they would or intended to.

As someone else mentioned, no matter who/how you and your partner are now there is no guarantee of the choices they’ll make or the influences they’ll be under in the future. Many middle-aged people go through depression which is a very real mental disease. One psychologist wrote a book citing it as the major cause for the breakup of longer marriages.

Pray, look to the Church’s teaching, be open to God’s plan for you.

 

[daisybee]

If you choose your vocation out of worry for what could go wrong, you’ll never have the courage to choose anything. Choose to please God, and take what comes.

Well said; I couldn’t agree more. The parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14-30) comes to mind too–in it we learn how choosing not to take action with the gifts He gives us is not His will.

Things may go wrong according to the world, but God’s hand guides all things, and it seems that it is often through hardship that He brings about our sanctification.

We have examples of saints who embraced their vocation, only to encounter many hardships. I’m thinking of St. John of the Cross, who was imprisoned for his beliefs, and St. Maximilian Kolbe and others who were martyred for the faith.

Blessedrosary, given your username, it seems that you probably welcome having Our Lady’s assistance. You may already have a special devotion to Our Lady given your username. St. Louis de Montfort wrote something to the effect that those who practice a true devotion to Mary have the “sweetest” crosses, because they are helped so much by Our Lady. You may be interested to explore St. Louis de Montfort’s* True Devotion to Mary: With Total Consecration* if you haven’t had a chance. There’s a free PDF version here:

catholicwaypublishing.com/2012/05/16/true-devotion-to-mary-with-preparation-for-total-consecration-by-saint-louis-de-montfort-amazon-kindle-book/

 

[EasterJoy]

Easterjoy:

It is my opinion and only my opinion that marriage in and of itself is a ****shoot meerly because people change and there’s plenty of temptations out there.----period.

I said nothing of total personal control—you have.

I also said that marriage to someone with a mental illness is “an extremely bumpy ride” not marriage in and of itself. Generally speaking, marriage is what both parties make of it and are willing to put into it.

You are putting words into my mouth that I have not spoken or meant.

Sorry, but I have been there, I have done that, and for me and only me, I don’t believe I will wear that tee shirt again at least not in the near future. I have already been down that road thank you. I am very content being single.

“If you choose your vocation out of worry for what could go wrong, you’ll never have the courage to choose anything. Choose to please God, and take what comes.”

I think you are off on a tangent.

I hardly think that the reminder that there is a peril in worrying too much about the future is a tangent when it comes to the topic of marriage. When the OP says that it what it takes to be happy is to “get lucky”, the emphasis is what is off center.

I was not just replying to you specifically, but to the entire direction of the entire thread. The question being debated is: Is marriage worth it? I think that in the greater Catholic perspective, the answer must be far more positive than “meh”!

It is fine to be content being single–St. Paul made the argument that it is far better for a Christian to be single, if that can be endured!–but I still think it is overly pessimistic to characterize marriage as a total game of chance, as if this were far beyond the ordinary run of chance to be expected in a human endeavor.

It was far better for someone to choose being single as the better choice in itself than to have chosen being single because of a fear of the dangers of marriage. Of course a Catholic has to be concerned about avoiding any marriage that isn’t going to be fruitful because of pre-existing defects, but from a Catholic perspective, the main danger in marriage is that it might distract a person from a more radical and undistracted service to God and neighbor. If the command to “take up your Cross and follow me” does not describe what is “a bumpy ride” at the very least, I don’t know what. Yet Christ says, “No one who sets a hand to the plow and looks to what was left behind is fit for the kingdom of God.” Luke 9:62. Courage is a non-negotiable in the Christian life; that is not a tangent.

 

[horselvr]

“I think that in the greater Catholic perspective, the answer must be far more positive than “meh”!”

I’ve done the mental illness thing in marriage for 15yrs and it was almost the undoing of not only my own mental and physical well being but also my sons. Trust me, I carried that cross long enough. Since my Parish Priest understands that, it’s ok if you don’t.

With a “marriage” like mine all your getting out of me is a MEH!

In the greater Catholic perspective a normal marriage with just a few bumps is quite different then what I am referring to.

“Courage is a non-negotiable in the Christian life; that is not a tangent.”

Let’s be specific: I said you were off on a tangent.

 

[daisybee]

I’ve done the mental illness thing in marriage for 15yrs and it was almost the undoing of not only my own mental and physical well being but also my sons. Trust me, I carried that cross long enough. Since my Parish Priest understands that, it’s ok if you don’t.

With a “marriage” like mine all your getting out of me is a MEH!

In the greater Catholic perspective a normal marriage with just a few bumps is quite different then what I am referring to.

“Courage is a non-negotiable in the Christian life; that is not a tangent.”

Let’s be specific: I said you were off on a tangent.

Horselvr, I’m very sorry to hear that you went through what must have been a terrible trial. Mental illness can involve the ill one abusing others (psychologically, verbally, even physically)–I don’t know if that was part of your experience and I’m not asking you to elaborate–but especially in a case like that, of course someone would have to protect his/her well-being and that of the children. And obviously you were diligent in seeking counsel from your priest.

Hopefully these kinds of cases are not as common as “normal” marriages with some bumps and maybe even some hard trials. I think it’s fair to say that such cases are not as common as “normal” marriages… and now, with even more emphasis on pre-marriage counseling, perhaps it’s a little easier to avoid such a marriage than it has been in the past.

For someone such as Blessedrosary considering the vocation of marriage, and without specifics about who is prospective partner is or might be, we just don’t know what kind of trial he might face if he were to get married. I think we’re just trying to point out that there likely will be some trials…but with good preparation and discernment and the help of good marriage preparation couples and a priest, it is possible to make an informed decision, taking into consideration all the information that’s available.

 

[horselvr]

I’m going to give this one more attempt.

We had pre marriage counseling. In some cases, that doesn’t prove jack. Nor does it assure marital bliss.

Even in a “normal marriage” people can and a lot of the time do change. They mature, their perspective changes, their love changes, they are distracted by the outside world.

This is all normal stuff. Most all marriages go through trial and error that hopefully get’s corrected and the marriage is put back on the path. Sometimes it never get’s put back together.

" I think we’re just trying to point out that there likely will be some trials…but with good preparation and discernment and the help of good marriage preparation couples and a priest, it is possible to make an informed decision, taking into consideration all the information that’s available."

And I on the other hand am trying to point out that there will more than likely be trials, that’s a given in not only marriage but also life.

I am also trying to point out that even with good preparation and discernment and the help of good marriage preparation couples and a priest, it is possible that even with all that, things just don’t go well. There are no guarantees. Marriage is what you make of it, what both make of it.

Again this is just my humble opinion.

 

[daisybee]

And I on the other hand am trying to point out that there will more than likely be trials, that’s a given in not only marriage but also life.

I am also trying to point out that even with good preparation and discernment and the help of good marriage preparation couples and a priest, it is possible that even with all that, things just don’t go well. There are no guarantees. Marriage is what you make of it, what both make of it.

Again this is just my humble opinion.

Hi horselvr,
I agree with you that there will more than likely be trials. In fact, I don’t know of any marriages that don’t have any. But I would hate to discourage someone from pursuing his vocation of marriage out of fear that it might not go well. Sometimes things don’t work out, as you’ve reminded us. But the fact remains that many, many people are still called to marriage, and just because sometimes things don’t work out doesn’t mean that people should neglect their vocations or hide from them out of fear of the unknown.

In my case, our pre-marriage counseling was critical in our decision-making and provided a lot of direction that we needed. As you suggest, it’s not some kind of magic that guarantees anything; it’s a tool among many that couples can use. And the more tools the couple makes use of, the more likely they are to make the best decision that they can.

We can’t control if someday all of a sudden someone decides not to love. That is a terrible situation which all of us have probably experienced in one way or another; some more terribly than others. Christ was betrayed by his closest friends, but He still loved despite that and encourages us to risk loving too.

 

[EasterJoy]

“I think that in the greater Catholic perspective, the answer must be far more positive than “meh”!”

I’ve done the mental illness thing in marriage for 15yrs and it was almost the undoing of not only my own mental and physical well being but also my sons. Trust me, I carried that cross long enough. Since my Parish Priest understands that, it’s ok if you don’t.

With a “marriage” like mine all your getting out of me is a MEH!

In the greater Catholic perspective a normal marriage with just a few bumps is quite different then what I am referring to.

“Courage is a non-negotiable in the Christian life; that is not a tangent.”

Let’s be specific: I said you were off on a tangent.

Let’s try again: I am not saying you did anything wrong. I’m not saying you failed to be heroic or failed to be courageous, because I’m very willing to believe that you might go straight to Heaven with all the Purgatory you have done already. I’m not even saying you should have any desire whatsoever to be married again! No, no, no!! Good heavens, no!! As I did point out, canon law says very clearly that the duty to maintain the common conjugal life does not extend to situations where damage is being done to a spouse or the children.

For you, personally, I think that “meh” is being very generous. You got a lot worse than “meh.” You got “Lord, deliver us.” From your account, you stuck with it and then some, perhaps beyond that.

Having said that, Christian marriage requires courage, and that isn’t a pronouncement on Christian marriage. There is no state in life where we are safe from the dangers that come from living in true relationship with other human beings. That is just the way it is, and although prudence requires that we be circumspect before marriage, there is no 100% sure way to avoid a bad relationship without simply avoiding all relationships altogether. I’m saying that avoiding the bad is too high a price to pay. As one poster already put it, it also poses the danger of “burying the talents”.

You, though, you deserve to “come away for awhile and rest”. You did your best, and I would hope that no one would ask any more. I’m sure you will not go without your reward, and I hope your healing is going on even now.

Certainly if you aren’t inclined to give marriage any thumbs up, I’m sure that no one here can blame you. I think those need to be thrown in there BUT those can come from somewhere else, not you, you dear courageous battered soul, and that is OK. You’ve done enough heavy lifting for the institution of marriage.

There are not a few people in religious life, by the way, who have said of marriage, “Thanks, but no thanks.” That is OK, too. We will each find the perils of a particular state of life more or less suited to the brand of courage we have been given. As long as we give all to something, that is OK. There is nothing at all wrong with that!

 

[Strive4humility]

I didn’t mean to be intentionally vague, only writing from my perspective, which I know all too well. Abuse does put women and children in an early grave. I’m a man. My wife abused me physically, emotionally, verbally, even spiritually. Best studies reveal that approximately half of all abused spouses are husbands, and abused husbands are more likely to be murdered by their wives than vice-versa. Why is our societal perspective on this matter contrary to the statistics that truly exist? Because many men, like myself, refuse to fight back. Perhaps there’s something to the idea that men who don’t fight back physically eventually stop fighting back verbally. I’ll take that one up with my therapist. The bottom line, horselvr, is that you are correct-I never should have enabled my wife to continue to abuse me. I left when my children were suffering. And because family courts are so biased against men from the outset, the best any Dad will likely do is 50% custody and placement, which is what I have. I knew I couldn’t remove them from the madness completely, and I was torn between staying and being their protector and leaving and minimizing the damage. I will state that the physical abuse of my sons has been minimal and has actually stopped. The verbal and emotional abuse has created terrible damage to them, however. It’s a terrible dilemma, I did the best I could…

 

[chevalier]

I don’t mean to sound pessimistic, but there are SO many factors that go into whether two people end up being happy together or not, factors that sometimes are impossible to know apriori.

OR is there an algorithmic way to determine that this person will be worth it in the long run? If there’s not, it seems like marriage is a ****-shoot: some people get lucky and are very satisfied and some people are not.

If all (I don’t mean to make this sound little) a happy marriage requires is 100% self-sacrifice for the other person, then why aren’t more marriages healthy? Or is selfishness (and related problems) the only cause of distress in marriage?

Selfishness, silliness, lack of vision, falling for a ruse, not coming up with the idea to pray for strength and actually work on the problems, expectations of things magically clicking all the time rather than needing to be worked out.

Marriage may be worth it, although not for everybody. For example, for St. Paul it was not worth it, while for St. Joseph it can’t not have been worth it.

Right now NPD is rampant and the sense of entitlement is growing, as are other unhealthy attitudes that are obstacles to bonding or collaborating with another person. Good manners, consideration, kindness, empathy, are all falling into desuetude. This doesn’t bode well for marriages.

 

[underacloud]

How to answer that. Hmmm. I remember one old guy saying that the key to the success of his 60 year marriage was that he said he got up every morning, looked in the mirror, and told himself: Well, you’re no prize, either.

At first look, this is quite funny. On second look, there’s a great depth to the emotion and humility here…many years of wisdom condensed to a very helpful outlook.

 

[horselvr]

Strive4humility:

I apologize. You are right and shame on me. As I was writing about the abused women and children the abused men actually popped into my head and I dismissed that thought and only spoke of abused women.

Shame on me especially because my brother, a retired Air Force Vet, was terribly abused by his wife of 32 yrs which I witnessed. She was an abusive and violent alcoholic and when he was trying to seek help for her she came unhinged punched him in the face and actually knocked him down right in front of me. I was unaware that he had been living like this for years as they moved around alot with the Air Force.

He was a slight built man, and not in the best of health. He was also working 2 jobs to support her habit as an enabler just to keep some peace in the houshold.

He died a few years ago and I miss him terribly.

Again I apologize for not considering the abused men.

 

[Strive4humility]

It’s nice of you to apologize, but really, there’s no need. I’m so sorry for what happened to your brother and will pray for both of you. Abuse is not really a societal problem, I believe. I think it’s a function of humanity-too many injured people who “double down” on their problems by refusing to take accountability. Thanks for the kind words.

 

[ArmorShining]

I think marriage is definitely worth it. But…BUT!!! But…you need to be ready for marriage and you need to marry the right person. Easier said than done, right?

I understand your pessimism. 50% of marriages end up in divorce. But many times, the people weren’t ready to marry (too young, too naive, not enough wisdom) . I got married last year and I was a good age for it. 28. I don’t think i would have been ready when I was under 25.
I feel that age and maturity played a big factor in my readiness. I know my marriage will last. We are both committed to our marriage and are both committed to our faith. WORD OF WARNING:** I WOULD THINK TWICE BEFORE MARRYING SOMEONE SECULAR. RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES CAN CAUSE SERIOUS PROBLEMS DOWN THE LINE, ESPECIALLY WITH KIDS .**

I want to be completely honest though. I’m not a fan of big huge weddings which we had because my wife wanted it and I’m glad it made her happy. If it were up to me we would have invited no more than 50 people (we had 300). I definitely believe in marriage :thumbsup:but I don’t necessarily believe in big weddings (this is my confession!). But I was pleasantly surprised that I enjoyed the ring shopping. I did it online at JamesAllen.com so I didn’t have to leave the house and it turned out great! No stress and a better deal than stores in malls!