Is Martin Luther in Heaven or Purgatory?

[thistle]

Libero:

I don’t think (but could be wrong) that God outlined what constitues a ‘mortal sin’ and I am relitavely confident he did not comment that if a person is excommunicated from the Catholic Church then they will be in hell…

NOTE: Please read signature, my opinions are my own, nobody elses.

God did outline what constitues a mortal sin.
A mortal sin is measured against the 10 Commandments which God gave us.

As for the “rules” you say is our invention, this authority was given by Jesus himslef.

Peter has the Keys of Authority over the Earthly Kingdom, the Church

2 Sam. 7:16; Psalm 89:3-4; 1 Chron.17:12,14 - God promises to establish the Davidic kingdom forever on earth.

Matt. 1:1 - Matthew clearly establishes this tie of David to Jesus. Jesus is the new King of the new House of David, and the King will assign a chief steward to rule over the house while the King is in heaven.

Luke 1:32 - the archangel Gabriel announces to Mary that her Son would be given “the throne of His father David.”

Matt. 16:19 - Jesus gives Peter the “keys of the kingdom of heaven.” While most Protestants argue that the kingdom of heaven Jesus was talking about is the eternal state of glory (as if Peter is up in heaven letting people in), the kingdom of heaven Jesus is speaking of actually refers to the Church on earth. In using the term “keys,” Jesus was referencing Isaiah 22 (which is the only place in the Bible where keys are used in the context of a kingdom).

Isaiah 22:22 - in the old Davidic kingdom, there were royal ministers who conducted the liturgical worship and bound the people in teaching and doctrine. But there was also a Prime Minister or chief steward of the kingdom who held the keys. Jesus gives Peter these keys to His earthly kingdom, the Church. This representative has decision-making authority over the people - when he shuts, no one opens. See also Job 12:14.

Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 - Jesus’ “keys” undeniably represent authority. By using the word “keys,” Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant reformation 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This “binding and loosing” authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish “halakah,” or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. Peter’s “keys” fit into the “gates” of Hades which also represent Peter’s pastoral authority over souls.

Matt. 23:2-4 - the “binding and loosing” terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees “bind” heavy burdens but won’t move (“loose”) them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.

Matt. 13:24-52 -Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to a field, a mustard seed, leaven, and a net demonstrate that the kingdom Jesus is talking about is the universal Church on earth, not the eternal state of glory. Therefore, the keys to the “kingdom of heaven” refers to the authority over the earthly Church.

Matt. 25:1-2 - Jesus comparing the kingdom of heaven to ten maidens, five of whom were foolish, further shows that the kingdom is the Church on earth. This kingdom cannot refer to the heavenly kingdom because there are no fools in heaven!

Mark 4:26-32 - again, the “kingdom of God” is like the seed which grows and develops. The heavenly kingdom is eternal, so the kingdom to which Peter holds the keys of authority is the earthly Church.

Luke 9:27 - Jesus says that there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the “kingdom of God.” This kingdom refers to the earthly kingdom of Christ, which Jesus established by His death and resurrection on earth.

Luke 13:19-20 - again, Jesus says the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed which grew into a tree. This refers to the earthly Church which develops over time, from an acorn to an oak tree (not the heavenly state of glory which is boundless and infinite).

 

[Christus_Rex]

Magicsilence:

Actually the notion of mortal/venial sin is not only biblical, but is extremely logical.

If you are interested, i can PM you some very good stuff on it. Not your usual CA stuff either.

In Christ.

Andre.

Could I have it? I’d like some stuff on mortal sin as one of my frineds has been asking questions about it.

 

[vz71]

montanaman:

Actually, he was a deranged individual and not entirely culpable for his crimes. Therefore, divine justice condemned him to walk the Earth until the end of time, thinking about what he did. He now runs a 7/11 in Trenton. He sold me a Slurpee.

And Elvis works the night shift.

 

[Maranatha]

Mike_D30:

Only God knows the state of Martin Luther’s heart and his intent. If his intent was to bring down the Church because of pride over his theological disagreements with the Chruch. Well then that would be a mortal sin, but if Martin Luther felt he was doing God’s will and fixing a seriously flawed system, how could that be considered a mortal sin as the Catholic Church teaches us what a mortal sin is?

Hi Mike,

I agree but the potential sin above was not the only sin that was committed. He was a Catholic who was excommunicated by the Pope and not repenting is also a mortal sin. If he did not repent, he was not brought back in to communion.

Did he repent? I will not speculate. It is for God to judge.

In the end God will judge Martin Luther not the Catholic Church, not a Pope, not us a Parishoners’.

Do you believe that Jesus gave Peter and the Popes the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you believe that whatever the Pope binds on earth is bound in Heaven?

The power that the Pope holds is an awesome responsibility.

 

[Mike_D30]

Maranatha:

Do you believe that Jesus gave Peter and the Popes the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you believe that whatever the Pope binds on earth is bound in Heaven?

The power that the Pope holds is an awesome responsibility.

Honestly I don’t know if I believe it, I’m not sure I ever did, where is the line drawn with bound? Popes have done a lot of things I would hope won’t be bound in Heaven. The Pope has an awesome responsibility I agree, but he doesn’t judge or condemn others to hell, only God can do that.

 

[scriabin]

Saints like Padre Pio have had, by God’s grace, the occasional ability to ascertain the condition of a soul’s eternal state.

Friends and loved ones would ask him to pray for God’s favor and tell them if a loved one was in heaven, hell, or purgatory.

They even requested the state of Mussolini’s soul!

Anyhow, back to topic. I once read that he or another such saint (actually I think it was Catherine Emmerich, but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago) who had this ability was asked about Luther’s soul.

She answered that Luther’s soul was in Purgatory and that he will be the very last soul released from that state at the end of time.

 

[NotWorthy]

Mike_D30:

Honestly I don’t know if I believe it, I’m not sure I ever did, where is the line drawn with bound? Popes have done a lot of things I would hope won’t be bound in Heaven. The Pope has an awesome responsibility I agree, but he doesn’t judge or condemn others to hell, only God can do that.

You’re almost there! The power to bind and loose is an AWESOME responsibility, and if abused, could have catastrophic results.

That’s why Jesus gave him the Holy Spirit to guide him in teaching on faith and morals. That’s why some of the most immoral Popes were too busy sinning instead of teaching “New Dogma’s”!!!

Notworthy

 

[HappyCatholic01]

montanaman:

Actually, he was a deranged individual and not entirely culpable for his crimes. Therefore, divine justice condemned him to walk the Earth until the end of time, thinking about what he did. He now runs a 7/11 in Trenton. He sold me a Slurpee.

So he is in hell after all. Trenton, noooooooooooooo…

Mystery solved

 

[Hegesippus]

scriabin:

Saints like Padre Pio have had, by God’s grace, the occasional ability to ascertain the condition of a soul’s eternal state.

Friends and loved ones would ask him to pray for God’s favor and tell them if a loved one was in heaven, hell, or purgatory.

They even requested the state of Mussolini’s soul!

Anyhow, back to topic. I once read that he or another such saint (actually I think it was Catherine Emmerich, but I could be wrong, it was a long time ago) who had this ability was asked about Luther’s soul.

She answered that Luther’s soul was in Purgatory and that he will be the very last soul released from that state at the end of time.

Do you have a link to the saint’s comments on Luther’s eternal destiny. I would like to read them and compare them to an apperition of Mary where she said Luther was in hell.

 

[scriabin]

Hegesippus–

I honestly don’t remember which saint it was but I’m pretty sure it was a woman–one of the biggies.

I think it was a woman who was during the time of the revolution…I mean “reformation”…who might have actually had contact with Luther; or a saint who was a generation after him.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Mokey:

Martin Luther was excommunicated. The Church teaches that anyone in this state is in mortal sin. Anyone who dies with mortal sin on their souls goes to Hell. Therefore, Martin Luther is in Hell.

What do you think?

1. That we should avoid useless speculation about things of which we can, in the very nature of the case, not have any knowledge.
2. Instead of empty curiosity about the post mortem condition of others, we should ask for grace for all the living
3. It’s none of our business - it’s God’s business, which He has reserved to Himself.
4. We have no idea what Luther’s sins may be, but we can have a pretty good idea of some of our own. We won’t be judged for the sins of others, but for our own - we should leave other people to the mercy of God, since it is impossible that God should be unrighteous in His judgements, and entirely certain that man judges unrighteously.
5. If we wish to receive mercy from God, we have to show it to others.
6. If we know little of our own hearts, how we can we possibly be righteous judges of the dispositions of those who are long dead, whom we have never met, know little of, and of whose outward acts we can know only a little ? Ignorance of these things is as nothing compared to ignorance of the hearts of others.
7. That the reasoning in the post is fallacious - for:

• a. it would follow that excommunication, even if unjust, would be a sentence of damnation. There may be a proposition better calculated to breed despair of God’s mercy, but I can’t think of one.
• b. it is implied that excommunication makes conversion an impossibility, moral and otherwise; so that once a man is excommunicated he cannot receive God’s grace and mercy. This would mean that God cannot be gracious, even if He wants to be. But
• c. this implies that God’s grace can be found only within the Church - which is a condemned proposition. God’s activity is not limited to the means of grace which He gives to us - we are limited, God is not.
• d. It also implies that the Church is so necessary for salvation, that one cannot possibly be saved if one is not in communion with it. But, this implies an absolute and unqualified necessity of the Church for salvation - which is much stricter than the teaching of the Church on this matter.
• e. It is a deterministic position - as though, once one is excommunicated, one is frozen for the rest of one’s life into having only the attitudes one had when excommunicated. This follows from b above.
• f. FWIW, JP2 said that excommunication ceases at death

 

[otm]

thistle:

Martin Luther left the Church which is a mortal sin. If he repented before he died he would be saved. If he didn’t he would be condemned. These are the choices but only God knows whether he repented or not.

Well, actually, Moral Theology recognized as authentic to the Magisterium would have something added: what he did is objectively a mortal sin, but subjectively there are two issues: Knowledge and Intent. Given the fact that there were not seminaries as we know them today, and not for well over 100 years after Trent (which was after Martin Luther did his bit), there certainly could be some question as to his knowledge base.

Further, studies have indicated that Martin may have been suffereing from mental disabilities or illness, which could go to intent.

So to soundly say that what he did is a mortal sin perhaps whould be qualified as “what he did is objectively a mortal sin”. Failure to do so is to walk so closely to judging his soul as to be indistinguishable.

 

[thistle]

otm:

Well, actually, Moral Theology recognized as authentic to the Magisterium would have something added: what he did is objectively a mortal sin, but subjectively there are two issues: Knowledge and Intent. Given the fact that there were not seminaries as we know them today, and not for well over 100 years after Trent (which was after Martin Luther did his bit), there certainly could be some question as to his knowledge base.

Further, studies have indicated that Martin may have been suffereing from mental disabilities or illness, which could go to intent.

So to soundly say that what he did is a mortal sin perhaps whould be qualified as “what he did is objectively a mortal sin”. Failure to do so is to walk so closely to judging his soul as to be indistinguishable.

Frankly I do not believe a priest from a few hundred years ago would not know leaving the Church was a mortal sin and it sounds like “may have been suffering from mental illness” is trying to find an excuse for the man who set out to destroy the Catholic Church. What “evidence” is there for that theory?
By the way, it sounds pretty much like you are “judging” me!!