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brb3
Guest
Some Catholics seem to think so. Does the CCC teach this ? Cite me CCC #'s of to support her crucial role.
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dshix
Guest
I would not say that she is “crucial,” per se, but she has been made almost so by God. She carries an enormous role as Mediatrix and intercessor between us and God.
I believe it is definitely possible to make it to Heaven without the help of Mary, but it would be monumentally harder.
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bzkoss236
Guest
No Mary, no Jesus.
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MaryT777
Guest
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SonCatcher
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Oh, just stop it!
po18guy
Well-known member
Speaking in regard to your thinking on this, is everything God has done all relegated to the past? Does it have any significance to us today? Or can we simply forget about all that God has done, since it occurred in our past? It is not in God’s past, as God does not dwell in past, present or future. He exists in the eternal present. God is outside of time. Each and every thing He did, does, and will do is also eternal, reflecting the eternal nature of God. We err wehen we attempt to compartmentalize things that God has done in man’s history as simply an event of the past. He is looking at it and considering it right now.
Jesus could have taken flesh from “these stones” according to John the Baptist, as He is Son of Abraham as well as Son of David. But, He didn’t. He created a woman through which He and He alone would take flesh. How do we know that Jesus is the seed of Abraham? Through Mary’s magnificat, for instance. This is also how we know that God’s promise is also the the Palestinian (Gentile) people, as the seed of Abraham is through both Sarah and Hagar - Jew and Gentile, prefiguring what Jesus Himself said and what Peter and Paul wrote.
Before critiquing how you think the Catholic Church overemphasizes the Mother of the Lord, first consider how radically Christianity has changed sine the 16th century. Consider how your current communion underemphasizes her. None of the protestant refomers thought of her as you do. They - each one of them - venerated her. This “Me and Jesus” theology that many adhere to in our modern world is of recent appearance on earth. Someone, whose head is crushed by the woman’s heel, wants this. Someone wants no mention of “the woman” of Genesis 3:15, or of her seed.
I know of your claim that the Holy Spirit “ensured” that Mary is almost nowhere in scripture. Did you notice that Elizabath, filled with the Holy Spirit, was joyful, not that Jesus came to her, but that “the mother of my Lord” had come to her? This was said by the Holy Spirit! Was the Holy Spirit wrong?
Here is a link to one catechism section about Mary: scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
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Nimzovik
Guest
Bzkoss236 wrote:
No Mary, no Jesus.
Nimzovik Responds:
If I remember correctly, the rest of this goes like this:
Know Mary. Know Jesus.
Yes?
No Mary, no Jesus.
Nimzovik Responds:
If I remember correctly, the rest of this goes like this:
Know Mary. Know Jesus.
Yes?
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brb3
Guest
Yes, but No Jesus … no Mary !! And, no none of us !!
We say Christ is King … does that imply there must be a Queen ? And that the Queen, [Mary] is essential to our Salvation ?
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brb3
Guest
But, he didn’t … why deal with ifs/ands/maybes ???
And, Mary isn’t in the Gospels … as part of the teaching of Jesus, on the Plan of Salvation !!
So, why do we need to make her essential to Salvation, when Jesus didn’t ?
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brb3
Guest
I understand that the 12 were told they had the power to ‘bind and loose’ sins. Thus, that much is mutable over time. But, did Christ give the Pope and Magi the authority to mutate the Catholic faith & teachings too ?
Because some children claim a lady told them “I AM the immaculate conception” a few centuries back— should we mutate the Gospel to make Mary essential to Salvation ?
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brb3
Guest
But, many Protestants and Catholics have come to know Jesus … w/o involvement of Mary.
Via, Sinner’s Prayer, Altar Calls, Scripture alone, and Preaching of the Gospel, etc.
Now, Marian Catholics might say Mary was playing a role … but, kept a low profile and the Regenerated Ones never realized she was instrumental in their conversions. But, how do you prove it ?
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mymamamary
Guest
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snarflemike
Guest
You’d need to define “crucial”. Yes, she is crucial in that she bore God incarnate, but then so would all of her ancestors back to Adam and Eve also be “crucial” so that Mary could even exist to bear Jesus, so that’s not a very useful category.
I don’t see any benefit to claiming that Mary (and by implication, Mary alone) is crucial to our salvation.
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mymamamary
Guest
**Many have. However, do You want to see a small roster of the many “Marianists”, here:
St.Maximillian Kolbe- Sacrificed His life for a married man in Auschwitz
St. John Marie Vianney- Patron saint of Priests
St. Anthony of Padua- Arguably among the greatest of Priests who had a tongue that was Golden
St. Augustine of Hippo- Bishop, Doctor of the Church, defended the key Marian Dogma of Her perpetual Virginity
St. Bernard of Clairvaux
St. Alphonsus Liguori
St. Ignatius of Loyola
St. Padre Pio
St. Louis De Monfort
St. Maria Goretti
Bl. John Paul II
St. John Bosco
And keep in mind that this is just a tiny list of the many thousands I could list. Sure non Marian Catholics and Protestants can find the LORD, however, did they find HIM as these Saints did through Mary?**
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brb3
Guest
And, not a word in this CCC link says Mary is crucial to our Salvation.
It only makes the case that the Lord chose her to be his Mother, and established her “most blessed among women” / “mother of Jesus” / the “New Eve”.
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allhers
Guest
In addition to post #7 where po18guy cited you the CCC scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a3p2.htm
These are very great reading too:
Mary, Mediatrix of All Graces by Father William G. Most
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4.htm
The Blessed Virgin Mary: Her Privileges and Relation to Christ and His Church
by Father William G. Most
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya1.htm
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brb3
Guest
Yes … all the historical events above are very true. And, make her a Supersaint, and ‘most blessed among women’.
But, do they establish her in the essential Mediatrix role, as Queen of Heaven ---- as ‘crucial’ to our Salvation ?
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mymamamary
Guest
**Consider the fact: Why did She cooperate in our plan of Salvation via Annunciation and Her Fiat? Her yes meant a resounding “yes” to our salvation. Would Our LORD have come without Her? Probably not, but that is unimportant, as what is important is her “yes” to the Archangel Gabriel and first and foremost, GOD. **
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brb3
Guest
And I quote Father Most in your reference above — “Really, the Father did not need Mary at all, except that if He decreed the incarnation, He necessarily decreed a Mother: She was and is that Mother. But, EVERYTHING ELSE in which He has employed her IS NOT NEEDED.”
Not a ‘crucial’ endorsement to Mary as Mediatrix of all graces.
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