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Lea101
Guest
The short answer would be that Mary is in no position to judge our souls in the first place
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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
In the original scenario, we were acting as an intermediary for friend B to friend A because the two weren’t on good terms. We just happened to be on good terms with A. It would be more like B going to A and A saying I don’t really know you and what I do know I don’t much like, but if you can find someone I trust to vouchsafe your character, I’ll help you out.
Except for us, Jesus gave us that person’s name knowing she would never fail to intercede for us because He wants us to get that help. This honors Mary because it’s what Jesus wants and her only desire is to do His will. And in coming to her, we honor her as our mother and our intercessor, acknowledging her privileged position in God’s redemptive plan. This also is part of our obedience to the fourth commandment, since she truly is our mother since our Lord gave her to be so while He was being crucified.
Except for us, Jesus gave us that person’s name knowing she would never fail to intercede for us because He wants us to get that help. This honors Mary because it’s what Jesus wants and her only desire is to do His will. And in coming to her, we honor her as our mother and our intercessor, acknowledging her privileged position in God’s redemptive plan. This also is part of our obedience to the fourth commandment, since she truly is our mother since our Lord gave her to be so while He was being crucified.
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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
Not that He wouldn’t otherwise do but that He wants to do for us by means of honoring her by granting her request and by our seeking her intercession we acknowledge her position as queen and mother to us all.
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Lea101
Guest
It’s clearer now, but this stood out. Wouldn’t Jesus know us fully? Why would he need someone to vouch for us in that sense?
I would understand giving in to a friend who’s vouching for someone you didn’t like, just to please that friend. However, I don’t know if that could be applied here because we know Jesus would go to extreme lengths to get that one lost sheep. When that one sheep is begging for mercy and wants to be with Jesus, why would that sheep need intercessory prayer in that case?
I’m thinking of the gospels and what Jesus have preached, like The Prodigal Son, or the shepherd who would leave the 99 and find the 1, and I’m trying to figure out where would the intercessory prayer would fit in. I’m obviously not questioning if it’s true or not, but I’m trying to understand the logic around it.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
Do you believe in intercessory prayer generally, or is it just Mary’s intercessory prayer specifically that you’re having an issue with?
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Ilkka
Guest
And I think that is precisely true. Thanks.
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Lea101
Guest
I believe in intercessory prayer in the sense that I know it’s a thing. Just don’t understand the actual theology behind it.
To be more specific, it’s the idea of intercessory prayer over our soul (us praying for our dead loved ones included) and Mary’s exact role in it.
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Ilkka
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I don’t believe in intercessory prayer in the sense that we could somehow present to God suggestions or ideas that make Him change His mind. But I do believe in intercessory prayer in the sense that it strengthens the mystical union we have with God and that it makes us turn to God who is the Eternal Sovereign from whom all good things come. This in turn makes our petitions pleasing to God because they are borne of faith.
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MiserereMeiDei
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I thought that might but decided I didn’t want to edit. I hate typing on my phone. Obviously He does. But the original analogy is of human to human and His knowledge of us doesn’t change why or what He wants regarding our coming to Him through Mary.
As a response to the rest I think it’s mainly addressed in my reply to ikka.
I’ll add, however, that there’s no reason to think that one who hasn’t heard of going through Mary would be expected to do so. But one can’t be a Catholic for long before learning about Mary and the honor and privilege she has been granted in participating in our salvation through her intercession and thus seeking, through her, the grace that comes from God.
I really recommend reading St. Louis de Montfort’s True Devotion to Mary and after that St. Alphonsus Liguori’s The Glories of Mary.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
Mary is our mother, and also the Mother of the King.
Why is it odd that she would pray for us and present our intentions to the King, and that the King would be pleased by this?
Why is it odd that she would pray for us and present our intentions to the King, and that the King would be pleased by this?
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Lea101
Guest
That was not what I said.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I guess i just don’t understand the issue and at this point I will leave it to others who perhaps understand.
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Lea101
Guest
I know many Catholics, both cradles and concerts, that don’t have a special devotion to her for a number of reasons. Myself included. Of course, we honor her and we recognise her importance, we won’t tell her to ‘get lost’ or anything like that, lol. I’ve always been inclined to pray to God the Father directly ever since I was a kid and I’ve never experienced any connection to the saints, so it’s something I’m curious about.
But that aside, it’s more about the logic about intercessory prayer over the state of one’s soul VS Mary in general. I don’t seem to understand based on the responses still, but it’s unsettling to think there are people who think I’m being disrespectful
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MiserereMeiDei
Guest
Well, I did say learn about, not acquire a devotion to.
I certainly wouldn’t say you’re disrespectful if you don’t understand it and I’m quite glad to see you trying. Disrespect requires intent, otherwise it’s merely a faux pas, at worst. In your prayer’s to God, you might ask Him to help you understand Mary’s role. Also, I really can’t recommend those two books I mentioned earlier enough. They’re free online in epub and audio, cheap on Kindle ($0.99 each) and reasonably priced in paperback.
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Lea101
Guest
I have read those texts among some others recommended to me by caf a while back, unfortunately 
the book certainly have an interesting choice of words for people who don’t have a relationship with Mary lol!
I’m generally more drawn to things of an apologetic and concise nature, but in general it’s still a matter I have yet to grasp and I’m a pretty emotionally detached person now unfortunately. I genuinely can’t imagine maternal love at all, but i do understand a more paternal one (which is very, very strange, I know),
the book certainly have an interesting choice of words for people who don’t have a relationship with Mary lol!I’m generally more drawn to things of an apologetic and concise nature, but in general it’s still a matter I have yet to grasp and I’m a pretty emotionally detached person now unfortunately. I genuinely can’t imagine maternal love at all, but i do understand a more paternal one (which is very, very strange, I know),
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Stephen_says
Guest
I would like to float out the idea that Mary’s will is completely in line with God’s will. Since she is born without original sin and never sinned in her earthly life, she would never do something that God does not want her to do. In that sense, I would say that all of her intersessions are actually the intersessions of Jesus. Its not like God wants to Judge people and Mary wants to show mercy, it’s God’s mercy somehow going through Mary, I think, because if Mary would never do anything God doesn’t want, then everything she does is what God wants, so somehow every time Mary is praying to God for one of us on earth, it’s all God’s work anyway. Mary is just another tool God chooses to use for his purposes.
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John_Martin
Guest
“Mother of Mercy” - that is a way of saying that “Jesus” is embodied “Mercy”
“Mother of Mercy”; “Mother of Jesus”; “Mother of God”
Mercy IS Jesus, Mercy IS God; Jesus IS God, the Son of God.
Mary is Just as Merciful as Jesus, not because she is the Mother of Mercy, but because she is “The Handmaid (Servant) of the LORD”: A Servant does EXACTLY what his Master is desiring - so says Jesus in how he does all he sees his Father doing.
If She is the Handmaid, EVERYTHING she does and thinks is the will of the LORD, and nothing from the mind of the flesh, as St. Paul called it, which is other than mercy.
“Mother of Mercy”; “Mother of Jesus”; “Mother of God”
Mercy IS Jesus, Mercy IS God; Jesus IS God, the Son of God.
Mary is Just as Merciful as Jesus, not because she is the Mother of Mercy, but because she is “The Handmaid (Servant) of the LORD”: A Servant does EXACTLY what his Master is desiring - so says Jesus in how he does all he sees his Father doing.
If She is the Handmaid, EVERYTHING she does and thinks is the will of the LORD, and nothing from the mind of the flesh, as St. Paul called it, which is other than mercy.
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Heavenward
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Justice as there is nothing we can do after we die to affect God’s judgement. That does not say anything about how others could affect God’s judgement on us after death. Indeed, a judge who does not listen to all involved in a case, including those on the side of the defendant, is not just.
Take the saint’s words as you will, but then he is a Doctor of the Church.
A more conciliatory statement about this, taking guidance from St Alphonsus’ words, is that Mary’s role is not justice but solely on mercy, since “There is only one Lawgiver and Judge” (James 4;12).
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Willing_Spirit
Active member
That is not what is taught. I struggled to understand Mary’s role for a while, sometimes I still do. Afterall, Jesus is supposed to be our friend right? Jesus said the way to the Father is through Him, but now the way to Jesus is through Mary?
First of all, God’s mercy is infinite. God is also unchanging. Mary can’t change God’s will. No prayers “convince” God to do anything, such as show mercy. Prayers are a participation in God’s will.
As others have said asking for Mary’s intercession is simply pleasing to God. God does not withhold His mercy unless we pray to Mary, but rather praying to Mary is a sign of repentence and act of faith in Him. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant, the new Eve, the Mother of God, the only perfect human to ever live without a divine nature. Acknowledging that pleases God who created her and chose her for her special part in His plan. Would you not ask her for her intercession and want to pray with her if she were still on Earth?
There are many ways God laid out for us to show our love for Him. One of them is loving His mother whom is also our mother. I think another question shares the same answer to yours, “Why do I need to even pray to God asking for mercy when He is omniscient and knows my heart?” The practices/devotions/ways of connecting to God that He has given us do not detract from His nature.
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graciew
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Here is Pope Benedict XVI , a passage from Deus Caritas est.
http://www.vatican.va/content/bened...hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html
It may help.
http://www.vatican.va/content/bened...hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est.html
It may help.
- Outstanding among the saints is Mary, Mother of the Lord and mirror of all holiness. In the Gospel of Luke we find her engaged in a service of charity to her cousin Elizabeth, with whom she remained for “about three months” (1:56) so as to assist her in the final phase of her pregnancy. “ Magnificat anima mea Dominum ”, she says on the occasion of that visit, “My soul magnifies the Lord” ( Lk 1:46). In these words she expresses her whole programme of life: not setting herself at the centre, but leaving space for God, who is encountered both in prayer and in service of neighbour—only then does goodness enter the world. Mary’s greatness consists in the fact that she wants to magnify God, not herself. She is lowly: her only desire is to be the handmaid of the Lord (cf. Lk 1:38, 48). She knows that she will only contribute to the salvation of the world if, rather than carrying out her own projects, she places herself completely at the disposal of God’s initiatives. Mary is a woman of hope: only because she believes in God’s promises and awaits the salvation of Israel, can the angel visit her and call her to the decisive service of these promises. Mary is a woman of faith: “Blessed are you who believed”, Elizabeth says to her (cf. Lk 1:45). The Magnificat —a portrait, so to speak, of her soul—is entirely woven from threads of Holy Scripture, threads drawn from the Word of God. Here we see how completely at home Mary is with the Word of God, with ease she moves in and out of it. She speaks and thinks with the Word of God; the Word of God becomes her word, and her word issues from the Word of God. Here we see how her thoughts are attuned to the thoughts of God, how her will is one with the will of God. Since Mary is completely imbued with the Word of God, she is able to become the Mother of the Word Incarnate. Finally, Mary is a woman who loves. How could it be otherwise? As a believer who in faith thinks with God’s thoughts and wills with God’s will, she cannot fail to be a woman who loves. We sense this in her quiet gestures, as recounted by the infancy narratives in the Gospel. We see it in the delicacy with which she recognizes the need of the spouses at Cana and makes it known to Jesus. We see it in the humility with which she recedes into the background during Jesus’ public life, knowing that the Son must establish a new family and that the Mother’s hour will come only with the Cross, which will be Jesus’ true hour (cf. Jn 2:4; 13:1). When the disciples flee, Mary will remain beneath the Cross (cf. Jn 19:25-27); later, at the hour of Pentecost, it will be they who gather around her as they wait for the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 1:14).
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