Is Mary the Co-redeemer?

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davidarlette said:
I absolutely agree with you.

The question is can Tradition contradict Scripture, and if so does Tradition/Magesterium have more authority than Scripture? I don’t believe so, but rather that all three are meant to “function” in harmony.

I accept many Church teachings which are extra-Biblical: her assumption, that Mary had no other children (the “mother and brothers are waiting outside” thing), I pray the Rosary including the second half which is not Biblical and refers to Mary as the Mother of God. Others too that I can’t think of. I love Mary and take comfort in her prayers for me.

Is “co-redeemer” a necessary article of faith for a Catholic?
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St. Francis De Sales (c. +1602): “And if you consider closely how the Council [of Trent] compares Traditions with the Scriptures you will see that it does not receive a Tradition contrary to Scripture: for it receives Tradition and Scripture with equal honor, because both the one and the other are most sweet and pure streams, which spring from one same mouth of our Lord, as from a living fountain of wisdom, and therefore cannot be contrary, but are of the same taste and quality…” (The Catholic Controversy, p. 245.)
 
Carlus_Magnus said:
I’m pretty sure there’s no mention of Bible alone in the Bible either:
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Do we need to say Mary was the Mother of God, Alone? I dont read that in scripture either.
As also in all his [St. Paul’s] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)
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Unlearned and unstable from knowledge of Scripture and the Apostles teaching of course.
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. " - St. Augustine of Hippo
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A Sola Scripturist!
John 20-30: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book, etc.
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How is other signs cogent?

**Joh 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. **

Looks like a good principle where things that are written is what God intended for us, and things unwritten are not necessary.
 
kaycee said:
Do we need to say Mary was the Mother of God, Alone? I dont read that in scripture either.

And why is this granted me, that the **Mother of My Lord **come to me?" Luke 1:43

Catholic Commentary: Elizabeth, the wife of Zechariah calls Mary Mother of the Lord. In Hebrew Lord is often used to describe God. Adonai is Lord in Hebrew. In the Jewish, since, Mary is the Mother of God because Jesus is God. The word made flesh.

You on the otherhand interpret Scripture like it was in modern time. You don’t take into the “account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres is used at that time and the modes and feelings.”

In addition, the Gospel of John states,

John 21:25

But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written; I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."
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kaycee said:
Do we need to say Mary was the Mother of God, Alone? I dont read that in scripture either.

Unlearned and unstable from knowledge of Scripture and the Apostles teaching of course.

A Sola Scripturist!

How is other signs cogent?

**Joh 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. **

Looks like a good principle where things that are written is what God intended for us, and things unwritten are not necessary.
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St Augustine was not a sola scripturist; he was a Bishop of the Catholic Church of the time. Sola Scripture is a doctrine of the Reformation.
 
Well said, b2memphis! Well said. Unfortunately, people have been trying to place Jesus on an equal playing field for centuries. There were even others trying to be “the Messiah” (Acts 5:33-39) during the early days of the church.
 
Carlus_Magnus said:
Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino”, 1441: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and teaches that …He who was conceived without sin, was born and died, THROUGH HIS DEATH ALONE LAID LOW THE ENEMY OF THE HUMAN RACE BY DESTROYING OUR SINS, and opened the entrance to the kingdom of heaven, which the first man by his own sin had lost with all succession…” (Denz. 711)

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, sess. XI, 1442: It [The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and preaches that …our lord Jesus Christ …who was conceived without sin, was born and died. He alone by his death overthrew the enemy of the human race, cancelling our sins, and unlocked the entrance to the heavenly kingdom, which the first man by his sin had locked against himself and all his posterity. (Decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, edited by Norman P. Tanner)
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bible.ca/islam/islam-bible-koran-errors-catholic-mariolatry-trinity-father-son-mary.htm “There was in Arabia in the fourth century a sect of fanatical women called Collyridians (), who rendered divine worship to Mary. Epiphanius, Haer. 79.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian church, Vol 4, Ch 3)…Kollyridians or Collyridians were adorers of Mary in the 4th century Arabia, as Epiphanius mentioned in his writing against heretics (see: Haer. 78, 23; 79). He coined the expression Collyridians which has the meaning of “cake-eater-sect”. Leontius of Byzance had a different name for them. He called them “Philomarianites”, meaning Mary-lovers (PG 87, 1364). The priestesses of this sect used to present Our Lady with cakes or a special kind of bread (kolluris) intended as offerings as was the custom in pre-Christian times. This sect, mainly consisting of women or at least led by woman priests, propagated what amounts to a Goddess cult regarding Our Lady. Epiphanius had this warning on their behalf: “Although Mary is the most beautiful and holy and worthy of praise, we don’t owe her adoration” (Haer. 79, 7, PG 42, 752). In a different passage Epiphanius uses even stronger words: “Adoration must cease. For Mary is no goddess nor has she received her body from heaven. (oute gar theos hae Maria oute ap’ouranou exousa to soma)” (Haer. 78, 24). Collyridians are also known and mentioned by John Damascene (PG 94, 728)." (The Marian Library/International Marian Research Institute, Roman Catholic commentary)—could this be in part, why so many worship Mary today?
 
If they would simply read their Bibles and turn their backs on so-called experts, they would not worship / pray to Mary.
 
b2memphis said:
If they would simply read their Bibles and turn their backs on so-called experts, they would not worship / pray to Mary.
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Oh? I can guarantee you that we “simply” read our Bibles, and many of us even take efforts to read it in Greek and Hebrew.

And still, we pray to Mary, just from reading the Bible.

Why? Because the Bible tells us who and what she is.

I dare you to call Mary the Mother of God.
 
porthos11 said:
Oh? I can guarantee you that we “simply” read our Bibles, and many of us even take efforts to read it in Greek and Hebrew.

And still, we pray to Mary, just from reading the Bible.

Why? Because the Bible tells us who and what she is.

I dare you to call Mary the Mother of God.
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O.K.; I double-dog dare you to prove this wrong: 👍

430 AD: Exhalation of Virgin Mary: “Mother of God” first applied by the Council of Ephesus

[bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm :eek:](http://www.bible.ca/cath-new-doctrines.htm :eek:)
 
o.k. so in 430 a.d. a group of men, uninspired men I must add, decided to call Mary the “Mother of God”. This proves nothing other than you guys are determined to go well beyond what is written in the scriptures.

Man, when will you just turn to Christ and the inspired Word and drop the teachings of uninspired men?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me (who has the authority? Christ has the authority) in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

I’d say this scripture pretty well describes the catholic church, how about you?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I’d say that just about nails the catholic church. You forbid priests to marry, what a problem thats been, you have special days where you must abstain from certain foods … how much more do you need?

You need to read your Bible and chunk your “tradition” before its too late!
 
b2memphis said:
o.k. so in 430 a.d. a group of men, uninspired men I must add, decided to call Mary the “Mother of God”. This proves nothing other than you guys are determined to go well beyond what is written in the scriptures.

Man, when will you just turn to Christ and the inspired Word and drop the teachings of uninspired men?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me (who has the authority? Christ has the authority) in heaven and on earth.
Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

I’d say this scripture pretty well describes the catholic church, how about you?

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Ti 4:2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
1Ti 4:3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.

I’d say that just about nails the catholic church. You forbid priests to marry, what a problem thats been, you have special days where you must abstain from certain foods … how much more do you need?

You need to read your Bible and chunk your “tradition” before its too late!
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Man you need to get out more…
Got to love that copy and paste…taken completely on of context style of yours. You know, find a few unrelated bible verses to fit your view or self interpretation. That is all it is your self interpretation. No matter what you say at the end of the that is all it is. You really need to spend more time reading what the early Church believed. You really need to spend time learning what the Catholic Church teaches. Then if you have questions or concerns please feel free to post them here. Until then you are in my prayers.

God’s peace to you and your’s
Stephen
 
Stephen you say a lot but actually say very little of any value. Yes, I’ll use scripture, and use it properly without commentary. You’ve not done that yet. And the reason is that you can’t simply go to scripture, you can only lean on the writings of men. I need to pray for you, at least I know to whom I pray and through whom I pray. You obviously have no idea.
 
b2memphis said:
Stephen you say a lot but actually say very little of any value. Yes, I’ll use scripture, and use it properly without commentary. You’ve not done that yet. And the reason is that you can’t simply go to scripture, you can only lean on the writings of men. I need to pray for you, at least I know to whom I pray and through whom I pray. You obviously have no idea.
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I don’t know if I should laugh or cry here…or bow down to you…you have set yourself up as God…So you know my heart do you? Only God knows my heart. I really have nothing else to say here…Good day
 
b2memphis said:
o.k. so in 430 a.d. a group of men, uninspired men I must add, decided to call Mary the “Mother of God”. This proves nothing other than you guys are determined to go well beyond what is written in the scriptures.
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Some the beliefs and Traditions you hold so dear were determined by these so-called uninspired men.

First Ecumenical Council: Nicaea I (325)

The Council of Nicaea lasted two months and twelve days. Three hundred and eighteen bishops were present. Hosius, Bishop of Cordova, assisted as legate of Pope Sylvester. The Emperor Constantine was also present. To this council we owe The Creed (Symbolum) of Nicaea, defining against Arius the true Divinity of the Son of God (homoousios), and the fixing of the date for keeping Easter (against the Quartodecimans).

Christs Divinity was Declared.
The Date of Easter was determined.
Second Ecumenical Council: Constantinople I (381)

The First General Council of Constantinople, under Pope Damasus and the Emperor Theodosius I, was attended by 150 bishops. It was directed against the followers of Macedonius, who impugned the Divinity of the Holy Ghost. To the above-mentioned Nicene Creed it added the clauses referring to the Holy Ghost (qui simul adoratur) and all that follows to the end.

Declaring the Divinty of the Holy Ghost(Spirit).

Third Ecumenical Council: Ephesus (431)

The Council of Ephesus, of more than 200 bishops, presided over by St. Cyril of Alexandria representing Pope Celestine I, defined the true personal unity of Christ, declared Mary the Mother of God (theotokos) against Nestorius, Bishop of Constantinople, and renewed the condemnation of Pelagius.

THIS COUNCIL DECLARED THE HYPOSTATIC UNION OF CHRIST, DECLARING THAT HE WAS FULLY MAN AND FULLY GOD.
 
no Stevie, I’m not God, but neither is (any) pope, Mary, or an assortment of men that get together ever so often to decide what the catholic church will believe next!

2Ti 3:16 All (pas - all, every, whole) Scripture is given by inspiration of God (theopneustos - divinely breathed), and is profitable (ōphelimos - advantageous) for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be complete (artios - complete, perfect), thoroughly equipped for every (pas - all, every, whole) good work.

You can not argue with the inspired writer Paul!

Joh 8:30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
Joh 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Joh 8:32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

and what is truth?

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

God’s Word is truth! Not the words of catholic tradition that is solely based on the idea’s of un-inspired men!

You too can know the truth Stephen but your gonna need to look for it. You will not find it where you currently are. And sure, you can run from me but you can not run from God!

Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
 
Joey, when will you drop the words of regular, ordinary men? Buddy, you badly need to turn to the Bible and the Bible only! None of that other stuff is of any consequence!

These are the same guys that came up with the rosary, holy water, nuns and priests being celebate, the list goes on.
 
b2memphis said:
Joey, when will you drop the words of regular, ordinary men? Buddy, you badly need to turn to the Bible and the Bible only! None of that other stuff is of any consequence!

These are the same guys that came up with the rosary, holy water, nuns and priests being celebate, the list goes on.
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What do you think this forum is mainly consist of?

Catholics. We Catholics do not go by the Bible Alone doctrine. We only go by the Three Pillars of CC, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Magisterial Authority.

The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, my friend, has made over 30,000 Protestant Denominations which has varies beliefs.

One Former-Protestant Pastors experience His own church splint because of doctrinal issues. The Catholic Church does not believe in Sola Scriptura.

She does believe in the Bible and she is the only One who can interpret it. Catholics can interpret the Bible in Light of the Teaching authority of the Church.

If you come here to convince us Catholics that we should go by the Bible Alone, you are sadly mistaken.
 
b2memphis said:
If they would simply read their Bibles and turn their backs on so-called experts, they would not worship / pray to Mary.
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Without those so-called experts you would not even have a bible to read. As it is, you threw out part of the inspired written word of God by rejecting those divinely-guided experts for your own humanly-guided ones.

Reject the Church and you have no justification to say the bible is what you claim it to be. It really is that simple.
 
b2memphis said:
Joey, when will you drop the words of regular, ordinary men? Buddy, you badly need to turn to the Bible and the Bible only! None of that other stuff is of any consequence!

These are the same guys that came up with the rosary, holy water, nuns and priests being celebate, the list goes on.
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The bible was written by regular, ordinary, sinful men. Why don’t you apply your own standards to the bible as well?
 
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