Is Mary the queen of heaven?

[JohnGerard]

We do not ignore Mary, buy neither do we ignore what God has said and is doing. If one were to ask of Jesus, Who is thy mother? What would He answer? His answer was, "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, which is in heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother

.

Yes, it was…in that context. Because Jesus was at the time engaged in teaching the people and talking with scribes and Pharisees. He used the statement as an opportunity to teach the people that “obedience to God the Father creates relationships greater than natural family bonds…far from undermining the role of Mary, Jesus reveals the true greatness of her divine maternity. After all, she was not merely his natural mother through generation, but she became the Mother of God precisely by embracing the Father’s will (Luke 1:38,43). Her relationship to Jesus-physical and spiritual-is thus magnified by Jesus’ statement.(CCC 495)”(from Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Ignatius Press, 2010, pg. 30.)

In other words: who said “yes” to God in a way that most of us only wish we would? Mary. And because of that she also became Jesus’ natural mother.

Do you really believe that if we sat down with Jesus face-to-face right now and asked him who His mother was He would deny that it is Mary? I hope not, because I think that would be ridiculous.

This means that we are all on an equal footing.

Kindof, I guess. Potentially. But we don’t all do the will of the Father equally. Some of us fail at that more often than others and fail to do the will of the Father. But Mary didn’t. Some of the greatest Saints didn’t. In that sense, we are not all on equal footing.

There is no respect of persons with God.

I’m not sure what you mean or are trying to say here. Maybe you could clarify. It seems like you might be trying to say that Mary can’t be the Queen of Heaven because God wouldn’t show that kindof “respect?” to one person over another?

Yes God loves all people equally and everyone has an opportunity for salvation. But how does that mean that there can’t be different roles/offices/gifts? Like…a gebirah (Queen mother), an albeyit (prime minister), apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, etc.

Jesus told the 12 apostles that they would sit on 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. Is that what you mean by God being a respecter of persons? They get to do something we don’t? So what? We have different roles. If Mary gets to be the Queen of Heaven and we don’t…so what? That’s her role. We have different roles.

Now, what we would have to admit, is if anyone has authority to rule with Christ, he should be seated with the King in His throne room. But the bible says we ARE seated together with Christ. Eph.2:6. Furthermore it says we have obtained an inheritance in Christ. That means that as sons of God, we take part in whatever Jesus inherits.

What the author of Ephesians is saying is that we who are saved get to share in Christ’s heavenly reign. I don’t see how that excludes Mary and I don’t see how that negates her role as the Queen Mother. Why can’t she share in Christ’s heavenly reign as the Queen Mother? BTW, I don’t see anything in Ephesians 2 that says “if anyone has authority to rule with Christ, he should be seated with the King in His throne room.” And even though the Bible says that we are seated together with Christ…obviously, that isn’t literal because some of us are seated in our living rooms. I think the passage is talking about sharing in His Kindgom…not literally sitting next to Him in His throne room.

Now please remember that the Queen Mother does not reign with the king.

What do you mean and how do you know that?

I would say a Queen Mother participates in the office of being the Queen in her Son’s Kingdom. She doesn’t have the same authority of the King, of course (if that is what you mean by “reign”). But she has a Queenly role, nevertheless.

She has no authority to declare or decree anything. She can only make a suggestion. But those who are privileged to reign with Christ do have kingdom authority. So, thus, if Mary is included with us as sons and daughters of God, it actually raises her to a higher level.

Mary is raised “to a higher level” because Mary is included with us as sons and daughters of God (Who ever said she wasn’t?) AND she is the Queen Mother by virtue of her relationship with her Son.

AND her relationship with her Son places her in a unique position that none of us, nobody, no other Christian can have. Who ever said it has to be an either/or? Why can’t it be both/and?

Forgive me, but I’m getting the sense that you believe that Mary is exactly like the rest of us except for this little blurb of time where she got to be the human incubator for Jesus. That doesn’t make any sense to me.

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[JohnGerard]

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This is why Jesus.spoke the words “Woman, behold thy son!” to Mary from the cross. She was now to relate to Him as her savior and not His mother.

Huh? I disagree. Mary can relate to Jesus as her Savior AND His mother. The crucifixion caused Mary to stop being His mother or relating to Jesus as her Son? With all due respect, that sounds ridiculous and I don’t see that written in Scripture anywhere.

Even people today will admit that they have “a personal relationship with Jesus”. You seem to be saying, “Well, Mary can have a personal relationship with Jesus too…it just can’t be a Mother/Son relationship.” Why not?

Jesus spoke those words because He was about to die and Mary needed someone to care for her when He was gone. Jesus entrusted Mary to the care of John the Apostle. What an act of love and compassion on Jesus’ part. Just before He dies on the cross, His thoughts are for who will take care of His Mother and He makes arrangements for that. Amazing.

In the kingdom of Heaven, being “first” doesn’t give you a higher or greater position as it does in the world. Jesus said in Mt.11:11, "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there has not risen a greater than John the Baptist ; notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. "

Mary isn’t Queen of Heaven because she was “first”. (Nobody that I know of has ever even claimed that.) She isn’t even Queen of Heaven because of anything she did other than say “yes” (She had to do that because God wouldn’t force Himself upon her). She is Queen of Heaven because of who her Son is. He is the King.

I realize it’s impossible for you to agree with any of this but this is what i see the in the Bible.
If you can show something else from scripture, then I’d be happy to believe it.

With all due respect, I think you have revealed that what you see in the Bible contains many misunderstandings about how Catholics view Mary and her role. And it isn’t because of what is written in the Scripture…but because of how you are interpreting/misinterpreting what is written in the Scriptures.

Peace. Truly.

jg

 

[JohnGerard]

That means that as sons of God, we take part in whatever Jesus inherits. Now please remember that the Queen Mother does not reign with the king…But those who are privileged to reign with Christ do have kingdom authority.
Shalom,
Jerry

Wait, so…sons and daughters of God are privileged to reign with Christ with kingdom authority…UNLESS that daughter of God is the Queen Mother?

She can’t or isn’t allowed to reign with Christ?

Why not?

(Scripture?)

 

[KathleenGee]

Great substantive replies, John.

I think the missing link is that we are looking at Scripture without the Church. In our tradition of approaching Sacred Scriptures, we do not approach it in parts and fragments. We center our faith on God Who is the center of our life. This perspective is shared by those in Judaism.

I mean, we cannot separate Scripture and divorce it from its believers, and the tradition of faith they lived in, including their times and conditions.

So many posters here do provide context of the faith and traditions and customs of peoples, be they in the OT or New Testament. There is the common foundation of being part of a community, a society with rules, regulations, rites, rituals, those who have authority and how to discern if someone does have authority.

 

[eazyduzit]

Wait, so…sons and daughters of God are privileged to reign with Christ with kingdom authority…UNLESS that daughter of God is the Queen Mother?

She can’t or isn’t allowed to reign with Christ?

Why not?

(Scripture?)

Sorry that was unclear. Many posters had used the history of the queens of the OT to build a case for a heavenly queen. I only wished to point out that in the OT they had no real authority to make any official decree, proclamation, or declaration of any kind. But those who by faith are the adapted sons and daughters of God share in the authority of their Father. I am elevating Mary while you are demoting her, if you are using the OT as example.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sorry that was unclear. Many posters had used the history of the queens of the OT to build a case for a heavenly queen. I only wished to point out that in the OT they had no real authority to make any official decree, proclamation, or declaration of any kind.

You agree with us here. The Queen Mother does not have the authority of the King. She is the mother of the King, and in that hierarchy, she is the Queen Mother.

The argument here is you do not believe there is a Queen in heaven, and Catholics do. From all the argument here, nobody can really say that there is a Queen in heaven or not. None has been there and come back to tell us.

But from the Bible, the argument for, is strong enough. So why do you deny that here is a Queen in heaven, by virtue that she is the mother of the King?

But those who by faith are the adapted sons and daughters of God share in the authority of their Father.

I agree that we are adapted sons and daughters of God (by Baptism).

But share in the authority of the Father? No. We are not God. We do not have God’s authority. Nobody has God’s authority except for God.

We inherit and become heir to Jesus’ by believing, which is the heavenly kingdom. In other word we are saved. But seeing that you are non-Catholic, thanks, nevertheless for sharing your belief, which we do not agree, of course.

I am elevating Mary while you are demoting her, if you are using the OT as example.

No, actually you are demoting her. You deny that she is the mother of Jesus by her right of conceiving him. We believe she is Jesus’ mother, has a special place in heaven as the Queen, saved and special.

 

[JohnGerard]

Sorry that was unclear. Many posters had used the history of the queens of the OT to build a case for a heavenly queen. I only wished to point out that in the OT they had no real authority to make any official decree, proclamation, or declaration of any kind. But those who by faith are the adapted sons and daughters of God share in the authority of their Father. I am elevating Mary while you are demoting her, if you are using the OT as example.

Sorry but did you even read what I wrote earlier? You seem to still be thinking that Mary can either be the Queen OR be an adopted daughter by faith and share in the authority.

Why do you think she cannot be both?

Also, I don’t think it is really the history of O.T. queens that is the point. The point is much simpler than that:

Do you agree that Jesus is a King in the line of David?

Do you agree that in the Davidic Kingdom the Queen was the King’s mother?

If yes…then Mary is the Queen. What was the Queen’s role in the Davidic Kingdom?

She sits at the King’s right hand (see 1 Kings 2:19),
She acts as intercessor to the King (see 1 King 2:13-21)

It is not a stretch to say she is the most important woman in the Kingdom.

How is that “demoting” to Mary? How is using the fact that Jesus’ Kingdom stems from the Davidic line which began in the O.T. constitute a “demotion” to Mary? Is that a “demotion” to Jesus then as well because we acknowledge that His Kingdom is a continuation of the O.T. example? That is an interesting idea you’ve got there but I think it is completely wrong.

BTW, even if the gebirah has no authority to “make an official decree, proclamation, or declaration”…so what? Maybe that isn’t her role.

You seem to be implying that adopted sons and daughters of God ARE able to “make an official decree, proclamation, or declaration”. Are we?

The bottom line that you seem to really want to avoid is that Mary, as one who said “yes” to God, is everything we are…AND MORE. But the “more” isn’t because of who she is…it is because of who her son is and the relationship that she has with Him. That is something that no other human being can ever have. Jesus has one Mother.

 

[JohnGerard]

The argument here is you do not believe there is a Queen in heaven, and Catholics do. From all the argument here, nobody can really say that there is a Queen in heaven or not. None has been there and come back to tell us.

I agree Reuben, but for a bit more evidence let’s not forget that in Revelation 12 we see a woman in Heaven, clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She gives birth to a child who I think everyone agrees is Jesus. I know there can be multiple valid entities that the woman can represent. However, if the male child is Jesus, and the dragon can be Satan…the woman can be Mary.

But share in the authority of the Father? No. We are not God. We do not have God’s authority. Nobody has God’s authority except for God.

I agree with you here again. But there is some indication that we will share in God’s authority somehow:

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?” (1 Cor. 6:2-3)

 

[JohnGerard]

Hey eazyduzit,

Thanks for the conversation. I understand that this is a topic we probably won’t agree on.

I have followed and enjoyed some of your other posts and I know that you are a sincere believer and bring much to the conversation.

God bless.

jg

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree with you here again. But there is some indication that we will share in God’s authority somehow:

“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?” (1 Cor. 6:2-3)

In what sense in your understanding, would the saints judge the world and the angels?

 

[JohnGerard]

In what sense in your understanding, would the saints judge the world and the angels?

I dunno. That’s too tough of a verse for me to understand without some help. It seems kindof obscure.

Best I could do is look at commentaries. Here’s what Haydock’s says and I think it has something in there from St. Thomas Aquinas:

haydock1859.tripod.com/id167.html

 

[KathleenGee]

Easyduzit…

You say the peoples of the OT had no authority.

Yes, they had enough authority to be recognized as witnesses of faith. Without the people of salvation history, there would be no bible.

That is the problem with Protestantism is that it separates the Word of God from His people and stands it alone in various disconnected fragments.

Instead we as Catholics as the Jews, look at Scripture as the Living Word of God Who is Christ… We do not divide Christ and separate Him from Himself…revealed as living within us!

 

[Reuben_J]

I dunno. That’s too tough of a verse for me to understand without some help. It seems kindof obscure.

Best I could do is look at commentaries. Here’s what Haydock’s says and I think it has something in there from St. Thomas Aquinas:

haydock1859.tripod.com/id167.html

Thanks bro. I am sorry to have asked. Anyway, you gave good Biblical reference.

My apology when I stated we do not share God’s authority - it was in a sense that God’s judgment and his power (say - creation) is His alone. Yes, by virtue of our holiness and in communion with God, we can know what is good and evil, and we are the judge of men and even angels, who are not exempted from not committing evil. It is sure great privilege to be saints of God.

 

[JonNC]

Is Jesus a king?

In ancient Israel, the queens were the mothers of the kings…not their wives.

Therefore, the Mother of the King is the Queen.

Mary, mother of Jesus, is Queen of Heaven.

I can agree with this. As Luther says, “It is necessary also to keep within bounds and not make too much of calling her “Queen of Heaven,” which is a true-enough name and yet does not make her a goddess who could grant gifts or render aid, as some suppose when they pray and flee to her rather than to God.”

She is clearly the best example of the Christian life we have. She is the Mother of God, blessed through all eternity. And as for her prayers for us, we ask You to hear her, Lord God.

Jon

 

[JohnGerard]

Thanks bro. I am sorry to have asked. Anyway, you gave good Biblical reference.

My apology when I stated we do not share God’s authority - it was in a sense that God’s judgment and his power (say - creation) is His alone. Yes, by virtue of our holiness and in communion with God, we can know what is good and evil, and we are the judge of men and even angels, who are not exempted from not committing evil. It is sure great privilege to be saints of God.

Hey Reuben,

No apologies are necessary. You asked a good question. And you make a good point about God’s judgment and power.

I often find that in discussions I can learn alot from others…but I always seem to end up with even more questions. It’s like never-ending. But I guess that’s how to learn.

Peace.

jg

 

[JohnGerard]

I can agree with this. As Luther says, "It is necessary also to keep within bounds and not make too much of calling her “Queen of Heaven,” which is a true-enough name and yet does not make her a goddess who could grant gifts or render aid, as some suppose when they pray and flee to her rather than to God."

Hey Jon.

Thanks for sharing. Yeah. Luther was right. We need always to keep in mind that Mary is not a goddess. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard of people in our modern times who think that. I know the collyridians did back in the 4th century. I wonder if there are any collyridian-types around today?

She is clearly the best example of the Christian life we have. She is the Mother of God, blessed through all eternity. And as for her prayers for us, we ask You to hear her, Lord God.

Amen!

Jon

 

[Della]

I can agree with this. As Luther says, "It is necessary also to keep within bounds and not make too much of calling her “Queen of Heaven,” which is a true-enough name and yet does not make her a goddess who could grant gifts or render aid, as some suppose when they pray and flee to her rather than to God."

Well, I agree with Luther up to the point at which he claims that Mary cannot aid us, nor with his reason for saying so. Mary can aid us through the power of the Holy Spirit. This gift is given to all believers, so why should it be denied to her? And we don’t “flee to Mary rather than to God.” We flee to Mary in God, with God, and through God as our spiritual Mother and Helper of Christians.

She is clearly the best example of the Christian life we have. She is the Mother of God, blessed through all eternity. And as for her prayers for us, we ask You to hear her, Lord God.

Jon

Indeed. And amen.

 

[KathleenGee]

JonNC,

Yes, Luther had it right on honoring Mary, Queen of heaven.

It is the Church who has named her and in no way does our theology every state she is a goddess as that would be idolatry.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC,

Yes, Luther had it right on honoring Mary, Queen of heaven.

It is the Church who has named her and in no way does our theology every state she is a goddess as that would be idolatry.

I agree, and am not arguing otherwise. I think, during Luther’s time, at least in practice, the distinction was not so clear.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Della;13588498]Well, I agree with Luther up to the point at which he claims that Mary cannot aid us, nor with his reason for saying so. Mary can aid us through the power of the Holy Spirit. This gift is given to all believers, so why should it be denied to her? And we don’t “flee to Mary rather than to God.” We flee to Mary in God, with God, and through God as our spiritual Mother and Helper of Christians.

Della,
As I mentioned to Kathleen, I don’t think the distinction was quite so clear in Luther’s time.
So, I do not deny that she prays for us, and that the prayers of the saints in Heaven are heard by the Father. His will be done.

Jon