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Joe_5859
Guest
Just FYI, this thread is over 4 years old.
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Bookcat
Guest
Old thread.
As noted it is not a debatable sin–it is a grave sin (see Catechism for details)
As noted it is not a debatable sin–it is a grave sin (see Catechism for details)
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feed_me
Guest
Didn’t God say something about self abuse in the bible?
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Bookcat
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old thead
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feed_me
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saving space
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sbarry1951
Guest
Brothers in Christ…I also struggle with this. I judge no one. I am Gay
but have not “laid down with a man as a women” for 20 years. I’ve talked
about this a number of times with my spiritual advisor, a priest with a S.T.D.
(Sacred Theology Doctor) which is required to be a Bishop, Cardinal, or
Pope. His mentors were Timonthy Cardinal Dolan and Edwin Cardinal
O’Brien. I trust what he says and he was just promoted to be the Rector
of the Florida Seminary. He is only 34. He told me that being gay in and of
itself is not a sin, it is in the act of sexual relations that is sinful.
We’ve talked about masterbation. I too have the “urge” 3 or 4 times a year.
I reconcile it with my confessor every time I do it. As it says in Proverbs 24:16
“For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”
So we all sin, it’s a matter of getting back on the spiritual trail laid out by
Jesus Christ Himself.
I don’t know if this will answer questions or raise more questions.
but have not “laid down with a man as a women” for 20 years. I’ve talked
about this a number of times with my spiritual advisor, a priest with a S.T.D.
(Sacred Theology Doctor) which is required to be a Bishop, Cardinal, or
Pope. His mentors were Timonthy Cardinal Dolan and Edwin Cardinal
O’Brien. I trust what he says and he was just promoted to be the Rector
of the Florida Seminary. He is only 34. He told me that being gay in and of
itself is not a sin, it is in the act of sexual relations that is sinful.
We’ve talked about masterbation. I too have the “urge” 3 or 4 times a year.
I reconcile it with my confessor every time I do it. As it says in Proverbs 24:16
“For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.”
So we all sin, it’s a matter of getting back on the spiritual trail laid out by
Jesus Christ Himself.
I don’t know if this will answer questions or raise more questions.
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triumphguy
Guest
It’s grave matter.
The act may not be a grave sin based on lack of knowledge of grave matter, and lack of free consent due to age, affective maturity, addictions, etc., etc.
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Catholic80
Guest
While I agree that it can be overcome… everyone is different, depending on the addiction, biology, hormone imbalance, etc. I was 4 when I started (no joke), and had many years of becoming addicted to it before finding out it was a sin. It took me 10 very difficult years to stop, including some very painful experiences where I refused to indulge (and I’m a woman, so I can only imagine it’s worse for men). Even now that I haven’t engaged in the act for over 5 or 6 years, there are still times when things get difficult, especially during the fertile days of my cycle.
To say that it only takes a few weeks is unrealistic.
But getting back to the OP… there is never a “good” reason to masturbate. It is intrinsically disordered. A nocturnal emission is not the same as masturbating, because in order to sin, one must give full consent. During sleep, and even in a half-conscious state of between sleep and awake, one cannot give full consent.
What happened between you and your girlfriend was brought on by going to far, which you admit. Releasing from the kiss was the consequence of going to far. Where the main responsibility for the sin lies is in the allowing of things to get started. If we nip a temptation in the bud, it dies down pretty quickly. If we keep it going, then self-control becomes very, very difficult.
It does take time and discipline to conquer these things… and over time, you won’t be in the situation where you are debating “which scenario is less sinful” because you won’t be in that situation at all.
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feed_me
Guest
Sin is sin, thinking about sex is also is a sin. Masterbation is a sin.
Sin is to a body like sludge is to a car (if you ever seen the castro commercial where cars drive down the road with weights on the back).
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TrueLight
Guest
No devout Catholic is going to want to be in the confessional every week confessing the same sin so there has to be some element of addiction there. And since addiction can take away some of the culpability…
Anyway, it’s either a sin or it’s not. Too much confusion around the matter. It is our sinful nature.
Every grave sin can be analyzed and looked at in terms of culpability. So are there no grave sins?
Anyway, it’s either a sin or it’s not. Too much confusion around the matter. It is our sinful nature.
Every grave sin can be analyzed and looked at in terms of culpability. So are there no grave sins?
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Crumpy
Guest
There is a command in the Old Testament to avoid working on the Sabbath. A guy was caught picking up sticks or wood on the Sabbath, and the matter was referred to Moses.
There are some forms of labor that are allowed in the Sabbath, in the OT. Even Moses was confused (see in the book of Numbers, someplace). Moses was unsure, and he was the one who supposedly had talked to God about all this, in the first place. So, Moses want to talk to God about it. Guilty. The man was to be stoned to death by the whole community.
Now, the curious thing to me, it didn’t specify whether the man was stoned …on the Sabbath. That’s an unresolved question, I guess. But, he was stoned to death.
So, it seems that you’re collapsing the sin of masturbation with the wanton disregard (arguing) about the sin of masturbation. Which of those is worse?
It doesn’t seem that there is any Biblical “wiggle room” on the question.
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Michelle9
Guest
Well if you follow the laws of the Church to a tee than this is not a debatable sin. Now God gave us desires and many times we don’t have a partner and we need some kind of release. So I think that it is not a sin. We don’t just crave the sex but we want more than that; to be loved. That’s what I think of when I pleasure myself at least. Of course, if one is masturbating all the time then that’s not good either. Most things should be done in moderation and this is certainly one of them.
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teachccd
Guest
You’re commenting on my post four years later? Took you some time to think about it!!
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CaptFun
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Master 
ok
Debate
good
********** - :tsktsk:
so you can
:angel1: … and sin no more!
okDebate
good********** - :tsktsk:
so you can:angel1: … and sin no more!
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Son_of_Jonah
Guest
I have always found this argument, that we “need” some kind of release, to be rather shaky when discussing something that is considered so grave. We “need” food. We die without it. We “need” air, by the same token. We do not, in any way, “need” sexual release, be it from a spouse or from ourselves. We will not die if we don’t get it. The lack of experiencing a release will not prevent us from going to heaven, nor the acquisition prevent us from hell. The only reason we “need” a release is because this message is ingrained into our psyches from a disordered, godless society. There is no logical contradiction in survival without sexual pleasure. Ergo, it is not in any way necessary.
Indeed, I’d go so far as to argue that the vast majority of people in the world today, especially the youth of my generation, NEED the discipline that comes from refusing to bend to the temptations that premarital activities of any kind can give. There is far more good to be derived from self-control than there is in any false sense of a “need” of release. The Catholic Church is very clear on this issue: masturbation is a grave sin. It is inherently disordered, it is to be avoided at all costs, and anyone who believes it is necessary would do well to seek spiritual council and prayer. I confess that, years ago, I also thought I “needed release,” so I empathize with anyone who believes it still, but I can also speak personally of the incredible graces our Lord gives to those who honestly seek to end this practice in themselves, and especially of the wonderful gifts of self-control and discipline that such restraint necessarily brings!
God Bless
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Michelle9
Guest
Thank you for your very thoughtful answer! Learning more is my goal. Anyway most people think I’m liberal when I say I don’t think its a sin. BTW I agree with you when you mention about the self-control problem we have in society today! Pre-marital sex is definitely a sin! Perhaps I worded my little speech wrong. I think we need it because we need love and love and sex just go together.I have always found this argument, that we “need” some kind of release, to be rather shaky when discussing something that is considered so grave. We “need” food. We die without it. We “need” air, by the same token. We do not, in any way, “need” sexual release, be it from a spouse or from ourselves. We will not die if we don’t get it. The lack of experiencing a release will not prevent us from going to heaven, nor the acquisition prevent us from hell. The only reason we “need” a release is because this message is ingrained into our psyches from a disordered, godless society. There is no logical contradiction in survival without sexual pleasure. Ergo, it is not in any way necessary.
Indeed, I’d go so far as to argue that the vast majority of people in the world today, especially the youth of my generation, NEED the discipline that comes from refusing to bend to the temptations that premarital activities of any kind can give. There is far more good to be derived from self-control than there is in any false sense of a “need” of release. The Catholic Church is very clear on this issue: masturbation is a grave sin. It is inherently disordered, it is to be avoided at all costs, and anyone who believes it is necessary would do well to seek spiritual council and prayer. I confess that, years ago, I also thought I “needed release,” so I empathize with anyone who believes it still, but I can also speak personally of the incredible graces our Lord gives to those who honestly seek to end this practice in themselves, and especially of the wonderful gifts of self-control and discipline that such restraint necessarily brings!
God Bless
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Son_of_Jonah
Guest
Love and sex can go together, but this does not mean that they always do. My mother loves my father: I and my beautiful sisters are the result. I love my father, mother, sisters, friends, etc. but there is no part of my love for them that is sexual. Sex is a very important part of spousal love, but is a very small part of love overall. Its design is two-fold: it is unitive and procreative.
To the first, God in His infinite wisdom and love for us created a means by which we can experience a very small part of heaven in the sex act with our spouses. Our bodies become Sacramental in the marital embrace. God shows His love for us by showing us through our spouses what our souls will eventually experience with Him in heaven! This is monumentally huge! The fact that our bodies are such an important “link” in this respect between ourselves and our Heavenly Father is, I think, an element of its sacredness that society at large has forgotten. Sex has been cheapened. It has become the butt of many jokes and the source of much crude language. But it is, as you said, so important because in the loving embrace that husband and wife share, their bodies become for each other a foretaste of the heaven that God has in store for us.
To the second, God in His infinite wisdom and love for us created a means by which we can share in His creative power. Through us, in the marital embrace, God creates new life, life that has never before existed. He acts through husband and wife, imparting a new soul at conception, to a being that is brand new. All of this shows how God did indeed give us sex in order to show us His love for us, and in order that we might show our love for Him and for our spouses.
With that said, however, I must further stress that sex - while magnificent and magnanimously important to a married couple - is not love actualized. It is but a small part of love. “No greater love has a man than this, that he should lay down his life for his friends.” (John 15:13). Clearly sex is not, in and of itself, this greatest love, despite the fact that it is unarguably a beautiful and sacred expression of it. Yes, love and sex do go together, in the right place, the right time, and the right purpose, as you have already said yourself. But especially in the contexts of this topic, we must remember the conditions by which the act of sex be rendered so beautiful an expression of love: that each spouse make a total gift of self (which implies and requires that it only be done by married couples, that the act be unitive in nature (which excludes oral sex, mutual or singular masturbation as ends of the act), and that it be ordered toward procreation.
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Michelle9
Guest
I should have phrased my response better. I specifically meant spousal love when I was talking about sex and love going together. Now that you mention mutual masturbation or oral sex I’m afraid that I can’t agree with you there. In some cases this might be an option where sex cannot be fully completed say for a medical reason.
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Son_of_Jonah
Guest
Bear in mind that I mentioned mutual masturbation and oral sex as wrong when they are the ends of sexual unity. Again, when used as foreplay, they are perfectly licit. I am also of the belief - and, to my knowledge, the Church is not against this - that these techniques can also be used by a husband on his wife in the event that, after he has already climaxed inside of her as the result of natural sexual intercourse, she has not yet achieved climax herself. In other words, should the procreative aspect of sex be fulfilled, the unitive requirement allows for actions that are not in and of themselves ordered toward procreation.
As for medical reasons making for their permissibility outright, I confess that I don’t know any official Church teaching on the subject. To what sorts of medical reasons might you be referring?
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Michelle9
Guest
How about pregnancy in the last stages?
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