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Margarite
Guest
Maybe some people think we should go back to these styles?
The modern one is a Muslim swimsuit:
The modern one is a Muslim swimsuit:
Is modesty for girls the same type of thing in terms of guys?
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GraceDK
Guest
Hrm… so, now you expect all women and men to follow Margarite’s subjective rules? I don’t see your point… I believe in moderacy… especially in Church and I think its totally appropriate that you cover your breats completely as well as clevage whereever you are… But that being said, people can wear what ever they want… we have Africans here who wear saggy clothes, Polish who wear much make up, Vietnamese who wears very sexy heels(they are short… let them!) and indian people who show a bit of belly… we got women in pants, even nuns, and so many different styles. Yes, there should be a minimum of moderation… but set your heart straight and then come to the temple. Some of the women that come in tang tops are pure and innocent at heart… no one told them it was wrong… because our culture is different… maybe the saliva starts dropping from American men when they see a woman’s arms but it does not in Europe.I don’t see a problem with guys not having shirts on. As long as they are in the appropriate place ie: it is not appropriate to go shopping, or to work without a shirt.
My brothers exorcise without their shirts, and so does my dad. It isn’t a problem for me. The thing I don’t like, and I have seen it amongst boys my age, is when the boys start touching their naked chest and stomach. I don’t like speedos, but to Europeans, it is just the way they do it, so:shrug: The thing I hate the most is sagged pants. YUCK!
As far as women go, I agree that many bikinis are too showy, but believe me it is almost impossible to find a decent one. I wear a bikini because I want my mid-riff tan because if my shirt comes up, I don’t want an iridescent back or stomach showing.I wear little shorts instead of the underwear style bottoms, and I try to get a straight cut top, though it is getting harder and harder to find.
My mom wears tank-tops in public. She is married, and so that is fine in some places. Like, the Catholic school where my younger sibling go, they asked that women don’t wear tank-tops because lots of women wear them too low and show cleavage. But to soccer games, or when she is going to be in the sun.My sisters and I don’t wear tanks in front of boys or men, not even our brothers or our father, but when they are not around, tanks are fine.
In Europe children swim naked, now that is gross!
We were always taught that a girl should wear sleeves at church, and modest shirts that don’t show cleavage the rest of the time. Shorts should come at least half way down the thigh and skirts should at least touch the knee. The back can be totally bare.
Earlier someone said that two men asked her to dress a little more modestly. If they yelled at her, then they were wrong, but here let me tell you this.
There was a girl at church one Sunday, she was wearing a wife beater shirt, that came up above her belly button and low-low pants. She kept bending over revealing her playboy tattoo. My dad moved himself and my two brothers to a different pew. After church he went up to her and very nicely asked that next time she make sure her shirt came down and her pants up and that she should wear a shirt that covered her shoulders (This is just considered modest in church for Catholic women). The girl flipped out. My dad was asking her nicely, and not just for himself, he doesn’t really have a problem with that, but also for my brothers, and any future men who might sit behind her, he was addressing the problem.
There is a right and wrong to dress, there is a time and a place for somethings, and other things just don’t belong anywhere. Here are the rules I follow for myself, and the rules my brothers follow. As you can see Girls have it a little harder:shrug:
Girls:
Church:
Sleeves that cover shoulder, skirt that at least touches knee, no words on shirt, not a tight shirt or skirt that shows every curve, no cleavage or mid-riff showing, dress shoes, dressy shirt and skirt or dress. Dress up for God. He doesn’t care, but he cares that you care.
Other places:
No cleavage or mid-riff, no sagging pants, no tight shirt or pants that show every curve, shorts that come half way down calf at least, skirts reach knee, no tanks unless you are married and then still no cleavage.
Swim wear:
Straight across top (if possible), otherwise as modest as possible, that looks good, bottoms shouldn’t sag, and should fit, I like to wear little shorts, but that is just me.
Boys:
Church:
Collared shirt, long nice pants, no jeans or torn pants, no shorts, no shirts with words, belt, coat and tie for Easter and Christmas, dress shoes. Dress up for God. He doesn’t care, but he cares that you care.
Other places:
No sagging pants, no skinny jeans, no super tight shirts, no girly wear.
Swim wear:
trunks that stay up and don’t sag, they should reach the mid-thigh at least, unless it is a speedo, but please don’t wear these!
Someone said earlier that the Church sees men and women as the same. That is untrue, we may be the same before God, but what is required of each person is a little different. We were made differently, we have different needs and different requirements, we should accept these joyfully! God made me a woman, I should be happy to restrict how much of my body I show, I shouldn’t cry and throw a hissy fit saying it isn’t fair, because God made me this way, so I should be happy about it.
Have a WONDER FULL day all.
As for your attempt to tell me that the man who corrected me for my dress was okay in doing so … and comparing it to the way your dad talked to that young lady at your church (she might be right and he might be wrong… I was not there… did not hear him nor see her tatoo etc) but the man that targeted me for humiliation and putting dirty thoughts in me that were his very own… he was a tyrant and a looser in my eyes… theres no way I will ever respect that kind of man.
Grace <><
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Image_of_God
Guest
I didn’t know many women felt that men are using modesty to dominate them. I just thought that a boy taking his shirt off was the equivalent of a girl wearing just a sports bras (on her upper body) were the equivalent and that was fine. I didn’t know there was something morally wrong with it…OK, I kinda did. But I won’t take it off anymore. I’ve only done it once.
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onmyknees
Guest
I have heard from many orthodox priests including some of the one’s on Catholic answers that bikinis are definitely an occasion of sin for men. One said, " I can think of no other reason for a women to wear a bikini than to tempt or get attention from men and that they are not even practical to swim in anyways. Why not wear a one piece?" I agree that in some cultures (Africa) that women go topless and breastfeed their babies out in the open but we are not there. As for nudity in sacred art in churches and museums this is again in a different context. Priests have also said that the most common sins confessed by men are sins of impurity and lust. Also I cannot agree that a women wearing a bra and no shirt is the same as a man having no shirt on. I might compare a woman without a shirt and only a bra on with a man in only skin tight under wear.
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JimG
Guest
I’ve heard (from a priest) the figure of 80% (in male confessions.)
But I think that’s a low estimate.
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GraceDK
Guest
See… there again you go putting bad intentions into your neighbour instead of admitting that all people just are not thinking like your self or that priest. The vast majority of women who wear a bikini do it, believe it or not: because *they themselves *think its pretty, they did not even know there was a problem, and they want to get a sun-tan on their belly… Naive? Well, deal with it!!! Can you imagine the consequence if what I am saying is actually right? Then you and your priests better go and confess that you projected your own lust and bad motives into your fellow beings and thereby wronged them greatly. Because that is definately how I see it… I have lots of women close to me, friends and family, who wear a bikini on the beach for those reasons mentioned above… they may want to look good, but they are not attempting to get men to lust after them. I just find your words sooooooo insulting. I cant believe that I am alone here… where are all the other ladies?
The honest truth is… I never ever heard about the big male visual-lust reflex untill I came to American Catholic internet pages… so I am left with the question. Do many of these men have a problem with lust, because they were told that
bare belly/ bare shoulders = lust.
I have seen the tendency in humans to react and act the way their surroundings expect them to. Tell a young man: “you are supposed to lust and see woman as creatures with no self respect when she wears a bikini”… and then thats excatly how he will think…
I think there should be a reasonable balance in how we think and dress… but I sure see very few men and women here representing that balance.
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JimG
Guest
I don’t doubt for a moment that women select their clothing because it’s what they like and what they want, not for its effect on men.
Neither do I doubt that men can lust. There is nothing in men’s lust that projects bad intentions onto women. Nor is there anything in women’s lust which projects bad intentions onto men. It’s just a state of human nature.
M
Margarite
Guest
The standards for Europe are different than those in America. America was founded by Puritans, so some of their thinking rubbed off on even us Catholics. It is our culture. In our culture, it is immodest for a woman to walk around, or even jog without a shirt on. Very few women wear just bras because in our culture it is immodest. Maybe what you say is true, maybe it is taught, but it is taught non-the-less, so that is the way American men and women see it. It is nothing wrong with that particular person, just maybe with the culture.
I mean if you grow up and your parent tell you that something is bad, and your priest tells you that something is bad, and your friends tell you that something is bad, and everyone around you tells you that something is bad, well, you grow up thinking it is bad. So in America, women going around in bras is like a man going around in just his underwear, and a woman wearing no sleeves just isn’t thought to be dressed up enough for church, and a man in a t-shirt isn’t dressed up enough for church.
It is our culture. It shouldn’t offend you. Though, I guess I can understand because Europe’s lack of clothing offends me. It is just our cultures. I guess I am wrong for being offended.
Just as a side note, I live in Las Vegas, Sin City. Here almost every bill board is covered with an almost naked woman. When I was in Germany a couple years ago, the bill boards there were “worse” than the ones here in Vegas, and they were in all the cities.
Grace, I wasn’t saying that everyone has to follow my rules, I was just putting the rules that I and my brothers and sisters follow, and everyone can take them how they may.
I have family in the SSPX and they think that if a woman’s ankles are showing, if she is wearing pants, if her shirt’s sleeves don’t come half way between her elbow and shoulder, if her shirt’s collar comes below the collar bone, then that woman is evil and on the way to hell. They don’t believe that men should ever have their shirt off in front of women, and the men rarely wear shorts, women never do.
Other people I know were mini skirts, and low shirts, and while I don’t like this, and I try to nicely tell them to wear longer or higher stuff, I don’t condemn them for it.
I wasn’t saying that you were wrong about your clothing, I wasn’t there, so I cannot say, but what I was saying was that you should reexamine yourself and your clothing that day and just make sure you were not wrong. Try to think the best of that man just as you wanted him to think the best of you. But of course, maybe you were right and he was a pervert. I don’t know I wasn’t there, I was just suggesting that you make sure that he was totally wrong before you point figures.
I mean if you grow up and your parent tell you that something is bad, and your priest tells you that something is bad, and your friends tell you that something is bad, and everyone around you tells you that something is bad, well, you grow up thinking it is bad. So in America, women going around in bras is like a man going around in just his underwear, and a woman wearing no sleeves just isn’t thought to be dressed up enough for church, and a man in a t-shirt isn’t dressed up enough for church.
It is our culture. It shouldn’t offend you. Though, I guess I can understand because Europe’s lack of clothing offends me.
It is just our cultures. I guess I am wrong for being offended.Just as a side note, I live in Las Vegas, Sin City. Here almost every bill board is covered with an almost naked woman. When I was in Germany a couple years ago, the bill boards there were “worse” than the ones here in Vegas, and they were in all the cities.
Grace, I wasn’t saying that everyone has to follow my rules, I was just putting the rules that I and my brothers and sisters follow, and everyone can take them how they may.
I have family in the SSPX and they think that if a woman’s ankles are showing, if she is wearing pants, if her shirt’s sleeves don’t come half way between her elbow and shoulder, if her shirt’s collar comes below the collar bone, then that woman is evil and on the way to hell. They don’t believe that men should ever have their shirt off in front of women, and the men rarely wear shorts, women never do.
Other people I know were mini skirts, and low shirts, and while I don’t like this, and I try to nicely tell them to wear longer or higher stuff, I don’t condemn them for it.
I wasn’t saying that you were wrong about your clothing, I wasn’t there, so I cannot say, but what I was saying was that you should reexamine yourself and your clothing that day and just make sure you were not wrong. Try to think the best of that man just as you wanted him to think the best of you. But of course, maybe you were right and he was a pervert.
I don’t know I wasn’t there, I was just suggesting that you make sure that he was totally wrong before you point figures.
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onmyknees
Guest
Hi GraceDK,See… there again you go putting bad intentions into your neighbour instead of admitting that all people just are not thinking like your self or that priest. The vast majority of women who wear a bikini do it, believe it or not: because *they themselves *think its pretty, they did not even know there was a problem, and they want to get a sun-tan on their belly… Naive? Well, deal with it!!! Can you imagine the consequence if what I am saying is actually right? Then you and your priests better go and confess that you projected your own lust and bad motives into your fellow beings and thereby wronged them greatly. Because that is definately how I see it… I have lots of women close to me, friends and family, who wear a bikini on the beach for those reasons mentioned above… they may want to look good, but they are not attempting to get men to lust after them. I just find your words sooooooo insulting. I cant believe that I am alone here… where are all the other ladies?
The honest truth is… I never ever heard about the big male visual-lust reflex untill I came to American Catholic internet pages… so I am left with the question. Do many of these men have a problem with lust, because they were told that
bare belly/ bare shoulders = lust.
I have seen the tendency in humans to react and act the way their surroundings expect them to. Tell a young man: “you are supposed to lust and see woman as creatures with no self respect when she wears a bikini”… and then thats excatly how he will think…
I think there should be a reasonable balance in how we think and dress… but I sure see very few men and women here representing that balance.
I was not trying to insult anyone here. You misunderstood my motive for writing the post. You see I was not practicing my Catholic faith until just a few years ago. I wore bikinis all the time. I also liked to look pretty for myself and get a tan. However, I knew that I was getting a lot of attention from men and I liked it . The way they would look at my body, I also knew in my heart that it couldn’t be right to wear so little in public. It was like wearing less than my bra and panties. The Catholic church teaches that natural moral law is in the heart of every man. I think some people really are just so desensitized by our society that they don’t realize that bikinis are immodest. I realize that there are men who are not tempted by this but I think this is the minority. I still battle with wanting that attention from men. And sometimes I fall. The reason I posted is because I just want everyone to know what Jesus, who started our Church, taught us so that we all can get to heaven and be with Him. I’m sorry if I came across as judging. This is not my intention. I love my faith and how beautiful it is! My favorite scripture verse is from St. Paul. Phil.4:8 “Finally brethren, whatever is true,whatever is honorable, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely,whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”
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GraceDK
Guest
Dear sister in Jesus… dear me… you are a girl and I did not know… that of course changes the thing somewhat. I never wore a bikini or had the attention that you talk about… I have however worn high heels and pretty dresses and have had guys stop in the middle of intersections to tell me I looked good or told me sleasy things (especially arabic men) and been honked at so many times… I think that no matter what a woman does someone somewhere will always treat her as an object.
I have never felt nude on the beach until I became a Christian and started wearing longlegged grandma bathing suits for some reason unknown to me… My body might not call for much attention anyway compared to many others but I just know that I have never had ill intentions in my heart no matter what I wore and I really think that sometimes people will wrongly put a sense into your heart that you are being immodest whereas you are discusted at the very thought that someone would lust after you. And yes… I really think that men as well as women can use the moderacy thing as a weapon of religious terrorism and do much damage…
I had one woman imply to me that a good Catholic woman should wear skirts all the time… hahahehahe… I am sorry… but… hehehehehhe…
But… I tell you sincerely… I see women coming to Church here with bare shoulders and there is no one that lifts an eyebrow… it would be unheard of if anyone asked a girl to cover her arms… why… no one sees shoulders as sexual anymore in my country… If some man came and told a woman to cover her arms they would think he had a problem with his own sexuality.
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Jea9
Guest
I’m sorry Grace, I’m a woman (only 26) and I find what you are saying insulting. You are insinuating that women are dumb in that they don’t know that how they dress may make a man lust after them. And I am REALLY sorry, but I know plently of women (I am the only Catholic in my family, and the only modest female to boot) and they DO say that they want a guy to notice them…notice their breasts or their but or their bare belly. The majority of the girls I went to high school with are the same way. If you honestly do not think that what you wear is an occasion of sin (or may be) for men, then you are naive and you should be corrected. So should the women that you know who wear bikini’s “because they look pretty…”. Again, we ARE our brother’s keepers and it IS up to us to help others avoid being led into sin. You ARE responsible for that. Yes, there are sleazy men out there, and there are men that could find something sexual in a sack cloth…if you found out and continued to dress that way, yeah you’re still responsible. I’m sorry, I do not share your opinion that all people who have lustful thoughts are just “on their own” to sort it out.See… there again you go putting bad intentions into your neighbour instead of admitting that all people just are not thinking like your self or that priest. The vast majority of women who wear a bikini do it, believe it or not: because *they themselves *think its pretty, they did not even know there was a problem, and they want to get a sun-tan on their belly… Naive? Well, deal with it!!! Can you imagine the consequence if what I am saying is actually right? Then you and your priests better go and confess that you projected your own lust and bad motives into your fellow beings and thereby wronged them greatly. Because that is definately how I see it… I have lots of women close to me, friends and family, who wear a bikini on the beach for those reasons mentioned above… they may want to look good, but they are not attempting to get men to lust after them. I just find your words sooooooo insulting. I cant believe that I am alone here… where are all the other ladies?
The honest truth is… I never ever heard about the big male visual-lust reflex untill I came to American Catholic internet pages… so I am left with the question. Do many of these men have a problem with lust, because they were told that
bare belly/ bare shoulders = lust.
I have seen the tendency in humans to react and act the way their surroundings expect them to. Tell a young man: “you are supposed to lust and see woman as creatures with no self respect when she wears a bikini”… and then thats excatly how he will think…
I think there should be a reasonable balance in how we think and dress… but I sure see very few men and women here representing that balance.
P
Pong
Guest
I don’t even think so. :bigyikes: While we may have some responsibility as far as deliberately leading others into sin, at some point the party who is lusting becomes culpable. I, for one, tend to think highly enough of men to belive that they have some self-control and aren’t, as some on this thread seem to believe, incapable of controlling their lustful urges. The idea that women are responsible for the sins of men around them is very popular with radical Islam. It is not, however, appropriate in Catholicism where personal responsibility comes into play.
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Jea9
Guest
I’m sorry, maybe this did not come out how I intended it. I DO think that there is personal culpability. I was just trying to get across that it isn’t fair to say that we have no responsibility for what we’re wearing/doing/saying if it leads another to sin. We do need to avoid doing things over and over again if we KNOW that it is an occasion of sin for another. Sorry that I didn’t make it clear, I was just so taken back by someone saying that we have no responsibility for how something we do may lead another into sin.
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Margarite
Guest
Grace, you say that it is enslavement to make women wear certain things for men, well we women expect things in return. We expect men to hold doors for us, we expect them to mow the grass, we expect them to not look at other women when we are dating, or married to them.
It is a give and take the yin and yang so to speak. Men and women complement each other, but to do that successfully, each needs to respect the needs, desires, and weaknesses of the other. While women do not have as much of a problem with lust, we do have a much worse problem with gossip. Gossip doesn’t sound that bad, but it is a horrible sin that is like killing a person with words. We women also have a problem with wanting men to look at us. We like to be looked at, it is our nature, but for the men’s sake, and also for our own, we need to restrain ourselves.
Both men and women have vital roles in the world, each complementing the other, and each should be proud of their role, and respect the others role. And this is effects every part of our lives, even down to the way we dress.
It is a give and take the yin and yang so to speak. Men and women complement each other, but to do that successfully, each needs to respect the needs, desires, and weaknesses of the other. While women do not have as much of a problem with lust, we do have a much worse problem with gossip. Gossip doesn’t sound that bad, but it is a horrible sin that is like killing a person with words. We women also have a problem with wanting men to look at us. We like to be looked at, it is our nature, but for the men’s sake, and also for our own, we need to restrain ourselves.
Both men and women have vital roles in the world, each complementing the other, and each should be proud of their role, and respect the others role. And this is effects every part of our lives, even down to the way we dress.
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Sabda
Guest
Jea was trying to balance Grace’s post. Every single one of Grace’s post has been about the fact that it’s the other person who is responsible not yourself. While it is true that we do need to practice custody of the eyes, it is ALSO true that we need to not do anything to cause our brother to stumble. BOTH of those teachings are Biblical and both need to be practiced together. You should not put all of your focus on one to the exclusion of the other.
Grace you are lumping all women with yourself. Not all women wear a bikini because they think it’s pretty. There are plenty of women out there that wear them for there sex appeal. Yes I am speaking from past personal experience here. I did not wear bikinis because I thought they were pretty. Now that I have matured some and grown in my walk with the Lord I’m to the point were I see no reason for a woman to wear a bikini. Based on the facts we have know in regard to skin cancer and the fact that they are completely impractical for swimming there is really NO reason for a woman to be wearing one. There are plenty of one piece swimsuits out there that are just as pretty and that are far more practical to wear when swimming.
Sorry Grace but this lady does not agree with you.
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whatevergirl
Guest
While I understand where Grace was coming from–albeit it might not be received the way she intended…I agree here with you Sabda. I used to wear bikinis before and partially through my marriage, and after a while, I’m not sure which became sillier…wearing them, or my justification of wearing them. (not saying you sound silly, Grace, but I am just speaking of myself) Don’t need to wear a burka for pete’s sakes, but there is no reason to basically wear swimmable undergarments to the beach. The end result will be that men will stare…and no matter our reasons, as a married woman, I don’t want that…neither does my hubby.
So, we should try our best to dress in a fashion that doesn’t invite lustful stares. (this does not diminish men’s responsibility to not looking at women lustfully)
C
Caesar517
Guest
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