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o_mlly
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Either you did not read the posts, the content of the posts is beyond your ability to understand, or you are willfully ignorant. Can’t help you.
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PickyPicky
Guest
If one were to accept that there is an objective morality, how to explain the subjective nature of the individual conscience except by saying that where the subjective morality differs from the objective morality, the subjective is wrong? It seems to me that what o_milly says follows logically from the concept of an objective morality.
Then, of course, comes the question “How do we tell which morality is the objective one?” And o_milly’s answer might be “It’s what the Church tells us”. Fortunately the Church tells us, I believe, that we must follow our own consciences, with the proviso that we should see to it that our consciences are properly formed.
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Elf01
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In your view (assuming they were not acting against their consciences), was it perfectly fine for the Nazis to kill the Jews?
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Vonsalza
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Sure it is. If you were an alien dropped onto the surface of the planet then you might make the mistake of thinking they guy in feathers is making the call, personally. But that would be erroneous.
He’s merely the representative of the Aztec religious order. He’s not making the call - Aztec god is making it. I’ve no doubt if you polygraphed him on it, he’d pass with flying colors.
Sure, but that doesn’t say anything about whether human sacrifice is immoral.
Sure, they switched gods. Jaguar god out, Yahweh in.
Europeans did the same thing with their sacrificial pagan religions. No more ritual sacrifice of people - we’ll ritually sacrifice this Jesus fellow every Sunday during the mass.
They switched gods. Their morals no longer came from Tyr, they came from Yahweh.
You’ve not made your case. Human sacrifice was objectively a part of worshiping Jaguar god or Tyr, among others.
Absolutely, and in 10th century Aztec culture, if you attempted to stop the sacrifice, you were wrong to do so and likely immediately killed or put in line to be the next on the altar, assuming you met the qualifications.
I’ll grant it gets a little hard to fathom for the simple minded. You’re right in that individually it’s completely objective. You no more get to choose what the Aztec religion teaches than you get to determine what Catholicism teaches. So it’s objective.
But at the cultural level, do they differ? Obviously, so the subjectivity creeps in at that level - but that’s beyond the dominion of individuals. Not even the pope is allowed the change the sacred and mysterious Deposit of Faith.
Horse manure.
Cheating your tribe was a bad thing. Cheating the other tribe to the benefit of yours was a rewarded behavior. It wasn’t cheating, in that case.
Not your rules - it’s the tribe’s rules.
No it isn’t. On a personal level it’s purposeless.
The purpose of morality is to determine the rules by which you and I can play together. In Christian society, Yahweh sets the rules through his priests.
In secular society - ??? At the present, it seems to be residue from the Christian society it was largely born from and, barring small pockets, still is (in the west)
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STT
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You need to put yourself inside their shoes.
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STT
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Nazis. (the rest for sake of minimum words).
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PickyPicky
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Oh, but I will. And life is beautiful in parts and in other parts very nasty indeed. And the holocaust was a cruel thing for humanity at large.
My subjective morality.
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STT
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So you believe that Nazis were aware that what they were doing is wrong?
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o_mlly
Guest
Nor do I judge anyone but we do and ought to judge the act. The willful killing of innocent people by anyone is always and everywhere an evil act.
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Vonsalza
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It’s almost a dare, isn’t it?
Take bees. When one hive encounters another, its unfettered total war.
Take bees. When one hive encounters another, its unfettered total war.
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o_mlly
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And I would judge that choice as morally a good act.
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TheOldColonel
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TheOldColonel
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TheOldColonel
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God is the source of all Goodness. All God creates is good. The gifts or goods of creation are designed with purpose in mind. Human beings are created in the image and likeness of God (i.e. Imago Dei); Human beings were created for the purpose of harmonious and loving relationships. A central part of being created in the image of God are the gifts of free will and the capacity to love human beings have been given. Human freedom is necessary if we are to have the capacity to love God, self and one another. Because we are created in the image of God, human beings are endowed with intrinsic dignity. By our very nature, we are worthy of esteem and respect.
With free will comes the capacity to misuse or misdirect our freedom. This always impacts our relationships with self, others, God and creation. God has given us the gift of a conscience to guide us towards good and away from evil. The misuse of freedom breaks down relationships. In the creation stories of scripture, sin leads to division between: God and humanity; Adam and Eve; humanity and creation.
Jesus Christ, the fullest manifestation of Imago Dei, came to redeem us and to restore us to the Imago Dei we are intended to be and to bring us back into the relational order God intends. Jesus calls us to live according to the “Law of Love.” Living according to the “Law of Love” directs us towards our purpose- to love God, neighbor and self.The formation of our conscience and the direction of our freedom flow from our identity as followers of Christ.
The Catholic Moral Tradition recognizes the fact that an objective moral order exists in the universe. Creation itself is an expression of the wisdom, power and goodness of God. The goodness, harmony and beauty of created things are reflections of their creator as well as the creator’s plan. In other words, the goods of creation were created with purpose in mind and are part of the relational order God intends. This order extends to moral matters as well.
With free will comes the capacity to misuse or misdirect our freedom. This always impacts our relationships with self, others, God and creation. God has given us the gift of a conscience to guide us towards good and away from evil. The misuse of freedom breaks down relationships. In the creation stories of scripture, sin leads to division between: God and humanity; Adam and Eve; humanity and creation.
Jesus Christ, the fullest manifestation of Imago Dei, came to redeem us and to restore us to the Imago Dei we are intended to be and to bring us back into the relational order God intends. Jesus calls us to live according to the “Law of Love.” Living according to the “Law of Love” directs us towards our purpose- to love God, neighbor and self.The formation of our conscience and the direction of our freedom flow from our identity as followers of Christ.
The Catholic Moral Tradition recognizes the fact that an objective moral order exists in the universe. Creation itself is an expression of the wisdom, power and goodness of God. The goodness, harmony and beauty of created things are reflections of their creator as well as the creator’s plan. In other words, the goods of creation were created with purpose in mind and are part of the relational order God intends. This order extends to moral matters as well.
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TheOldColonel
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The reflection of God’s plan or “Law” in creation is often referred to as “General Revelation.” From general revelation we see that:
• God is Rational: The logic of the world reveals the logic of God. The world is full of just the things it needs to function and the things we need to live. These elements of creation are not accidental, but an essential design in God’s plan.
• Order of Nature Reveals Purpose: God’s intentions are evident in creation, including our created human nature.
• Knowing God’s Law Through Our Inclinations and Conscience: The ethical directions of God are imprinted on our human nature and are manifested in natural inclinations and other faculties such as conscience. A well informed and well functioning conscience will lead to the moral truth.
If human beings were created for harmonious and loving relationships, then freedom is a necessary part of our design. The capacity to love requires the capacity for freedom. However, with freedom comes the potential not to choose love.
It would be useless to talk about morality if we were not free. To talk about morality is worthless without freedom. However, not everyone is in agreement in their conception of human freedom.
• God is Rational: The logic of the world reveals the logic of God. The world is full of just the things it needs to function and the things we need to live. These elements of creation are not accidental, but an essential design in God’s plan.
• Order of Nature Reveals Purpose: God’s intentions are evident in creation, including our created human nature.
• Knowing God’s Law Through Our Inclinations and Conscience: The ethical directions of God are imprinted on our human nature and are manifested in natural inclinations and other faculties such as conscience. A well informed and well functioning conscience will lead to the moral truth.
If human beings were created for harmonious and loving relationships, then freedom is a necessary part of our design. The capacity to love requires the capacity for freedom. However, with freedom comes the potential not to choose love.
It would be useless to talk about morality if we were not free. To talk about morality is worthless without freedom. However, not everyone is in agreement in their conception of human freedom.
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TheOldColonel
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In the Catholic Moral Tradition, all freedom is directed freedom. The tradition teaches that free human acts (specifically the human acts through which freedom is expressed) are to be directed toward their intended purpose or end. This concept of freedom is often referred to as directed freedom or “freedom for.” By limiting and directing our freedom, we are able to better fulfill our purpose in life. In some sense, limiting our freedom increases our freedom.
A competing and contrary concept of freedom prevalent in society today is the idea of “undirected freedom.” or “freedom from.” This concept of freedom emphasizes a freedom from norms, tradition, loyalties or system of thought or law which impose constraints upon freedom. To be truly free is to do whatever you want whenever you want as long as it does no harm to others.
Evil is that which de-creates, which is destructive of the proper relational order intended and put in place by God in creation. St. Thomas Aquinas defined evil as a “privation of the good” or a disordering of the good. Evil redirects a good away from its intended end and towards a lesser end.
What is Sin? Sin is the misuse of our freedom. The Hebrew word for sin most commonly used in scripture is “hatat.” Hatat, translated literally, means to “miss the target.” To sin is to misuse freedom in a way which causes the act to miss its target- i.e. to miss its intended, or highest, good.
Mortal Sin: Mortal sin is a moral offense so grave that it disrupts one’s relationship with God. According to Catholic Tradition, there are three prerequisites for Mortal Sin: 1) Serious matter; 2) Full knowledge; 3) Full consent of the will. If one or more of these is missing, then one has not committed mortal sin.
Venial Sin: “One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard of moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter but without full knowledge or without complete consent” (CCC 1862).
A competing and contrary concept of freedom prevalent in society today is the idea of “undirected freedom.” or “freedom from.” This concept of freedom emphasizes a freedom from norms, tradition, loyalties or system of thought or law which impose constraints upon freedom. To be truly free is to do whatever you want whenever you want as long as it does no harm to others.
Evil is that which de-creates, which is destructive of the proper relational order intended and put in place by God in creation. St. Thomas Aquinas defined evil as a “privation of the good” or a disordering of the good. Evil redirects a good away from its intended end and towards a lesser end.
What is Sin? Sin is the misuse of our freedom. The Hebrew word for sin most commonly used in scripture is “hatat.” Hatat, translated literally, means to “miss the target.” To sin is to misuse freedom in a way which causes the act to miss its target- i.e. to miss its intended, or highest, good.
Mortal Sin: Mortal sin is a moral offense so grave that it disrupts one’s relationship with God. According to Catholic Tradition, there are three prerequisites for Mortal Sin: 1) Serious matter; 2) Full knowledge; 3) Full consent of the will. If one or more of these is missing, then one has not committed mortal sin.
Venial Sin: “One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard of moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter but without full knowledge or without complete consent” (CCC 1862).
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TheOldColonel
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“In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law which he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience. Always summoning him to love good and avoid evil, the voice of conscience when necessary speaks to his heart: do this, shun that. For man has in his heart a law written by God; to obey it is the very dignity of man; according to it he will be judged. Conscience is the most secret core and sanctuary of a man. There he is alone with God, Whose voice echoes in his depths. In a wonderful manner conscience reveals that law which is fulfilled by love of God and neighbor.” (Gaudium et Spes, #16)
What Conscience is NOT: Conscience is NOT a feeling. i.e. “If it feels right, it must be right.” Conscience is NOT an ungrounded, all purpose moral faculty meant to free one from obligations or loyalties. Conscience is NOT a subjective, self created and self imposed collection of values or norms making the individual only accountable to self. Conscience is NOT the arbitrary or thoughtless adherence to outwardly imposed codes of conduct, rules or regulations.
What Conscience IS: Conscience is the impulse towards doing what is morally right. It is the God given human faculty which, when properly formed, corresponds to the Objective Moral Order. Conscience guides the person to in the responsible use of his or her freedom. In short, Conscience is our innate sense of right and wrong.
Is Conscience a guaranteed path to Moral Truth? Because the conscience is not infallible, we can misuse it or even ignore it. The Catholic Tradition teaches that a reliable Conscience must be cared for, formed and well informed in order to serve its purpose of guiding us to moral truth. How our conscience will function depends to some degree upon the Character we have built.
The formation of Conscience: The learning of moral rules is not the primary task in forming one’s conscience. Rather, the formation of conscience involves taking the core teachings and vision of Christ and making them our own through an ongoing process of conversion. Tradition, Scripture and teachings and rules which arise from them are meant to inform our conscience and shape character, not replace them. Discernment is essential to forming conscience.
Character Formation: Virtue is a fundamental right attitude so deep seated that it becomes a kind of “second nature.” Vice, by the same token, is a basic unresponsiveness to the law of love so deep that is also becomes a “second nature.” Practice of virtue or vice shapes who we are and how we are likely to translate freedom into concrete action.
We must always follow a well informed Conscience. Conscience is only right when it corresponds to the objective moral order. It is erroneous when it fails to do so. Conscience can be “blinded” through ignorance or through habit of sin. To inform one’s conscience is to seek the truth.
What Conscience is NOT: Conscience is NOT a feeling. i.e. “If it feels right, it must be right.” Conscience is NOT an ungrounded, all purpose moral faculty meant to free one from obligations or loyalties. Conscience is NOT a subjective, self created and self imposed collection of values or norms making the individual only accountable to self. Conscience is NOT the arbitrary or thoughtless adherence to outwardly imposed codes of conduct, rules or regulations.
What Conscience IS: Conscience is the impulse towards doing what is morally right. It is the God given human faculty which, when properly formed, corresponds to the Objective Moral Order. Conscience guides the person to in the responsible use of his or her freedom. In short, Conscience is our innate sense of right and wrong.
Is Conscience a guaranteed path to Moral Truth? Because the conscience is not infallible, we can misuse it or even ignore it. The Catholic Tradition teaches that a reliable Conscience must be cared for, formed and well informed in order to serve its purpose of guiding us to moral truth. How our conscience will function depends to some degree upon the Character we have built.
The formation of Conscience: The learning of moral rules is not the primary task in forming one’s conscience. Rather, the formation of conscience involves taking the core teachings and vision of Christ and making them our own through an ongoing process of conversion. Tradition, Scripture and teachings and rules which arise from them are meant to inform our conscience and shape character, not replace them. Discernment is essential to forming conscience.
Character Formation: Virtue is a fundamental right attitude so deep seated that it becomes a kind of “second nature.” Vice, by the same token, is a basic unresponsiveness to the law of love so deep that is also becomes a “second nature.” Practice of virtue or vice shapes who we are and how we are likely to translate freedom into concrete action.
We must always follow a well informed Conscience. Conscience is only right when it corresponds to the objective moral order. It is erroneous when it fails to do so. Conscience can be “blinded” through ignorance or through habit of sin. To inform one’s conscience is to seek the truth.
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Damian
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I’d suggest you update the Golden Rule since it’s ego centric and culturally ignorant to say. What makes you think that treating you the way someone with a completely different value system, culture system, etc. would be the same as yours? How about you treat others the way, they tell you they want to be treated. If religion would have learned that long ago, then indigenous children wouldn’t have been stripped away from their tribes and forced into catholic schools all for the sake of “saving their souls” excuse, for example.
As to “faith”. You can literally hold two opposing claims of reality that contradict each other under the excuse of “faith”. There is literally, and I mean literally, nothing you can hold to believe about reality on the idea of “faith”. So due to that fact, how is using the excuse of “faith” as your reason to believe something to be an accurate way to understand reality at all?
Faith is not Hope or Belief.
Belief is what you know is a possible outcome based on observed information so far.
Hope is a possible outcome of all the known outcomes you would want as a result.
Faith is the hope for a result that is not justified to be there at all.
Ex: 1d6 dice roll.
I believe a 1-6 will be a result of a 1d6 dice roll since I know 1-6 is the only possible result.
I hope a 5 will appear since I bet a 5 will appear out of the 1-6 possible options.
I have faith that a 7 will be the result since there is no data at all that this is a possible outcome from a 1d6 dice.
What is so obvious about your claims of reality that you can not demonstrate at all? Yes it’s obvious that anyone can make assertions, but that doesn’t make that claim about reality true at all does it? What makes your group’s claims to the supernatural any different than an x-men comic character’s powers?
You’re free to believe what ever you want. I’m just communicating why the reasons that work for you don’t work on others. If X + Magical claim = Y is good enough for you that’s fine. But I hope you can see what any claim with “magic” in it doesn’t work for me. I never stated the supernatural couldn’t be there or couldn’t be true, just the claims of evidence that has been presented were soo bad that it didn’t work at all. Better evidence is needed, that’s all.
As to “faith”. You can literally hold two opposing claims of reality that contradict each other under the excuse of “faith”. There is literally, and I mean literally, nothing you can hold to believe about reality on the idea of “faith”. So due to that fact, how is using the excuse of “faith” as your reason to believe something to be an accurate way to understand reality at all?
Faith is not Hope or Belief.
Belief is what you know is a possible outcome based on observed information so far.
Hope is a possible outcome of all the known outcomes you would want as a result.
Faith is the hope for a result that is not justified to be there at all.
Ex: 1d6 dice roll.
I believe a 1-6 will be a result of a 1d6 dice roll since I know 1-6 is the only possible result.
I hope a 5 will appear since I bet a 5 will appear out of the 1-6 possible options.
I have faith that a 7 will be the result since there is no data at all that this is a possible outcome from a 1d6 dice.
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TheOldColonel
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Sounds like you’re an agnostic, not an atheist. A true atheist is indeed a rare bird.
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