Is Mormonism a Polytheistic religion?

[ParkerD]

Parker,

Are you implying the Rock of Peter…meaning the Catholic Church headquarters in particular, is going to be destroyed?

Kathleen,

No–I have no idea how you drew that kind of conclusion. God has allowed the full use of free will choice, and will continue to do so consistent with Biblical prophecy. That means choices in religion, and so forth. At the time of the Second Coming, I think it is probable that there will be many, many religions on the earth. When Christ becomes “king and law-giver”, then even at that time I would expect He will allow free will choice that includes some people will find reasons to choose against what He teaches and choose their own path, even when Satan is bound and they are not influenced by him but influenced by their own self-will. (But that’s just my guess knowing human nature.)

 

[KathleenGee]

Specific to that phrase…I note on TV about movies, films on 2012…and watching a picture of the Vatican going down in some kind of catastrophe…

Our Lord sustains the Church. Nothing can break it. It is not about church buildings.

Thanks for clarifying, Parker.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Death and sin have already been defeated, ParkerD. Jesus Christ did that for us about 2000 years ago. Satan is bound, and the Kingdom of God has been established, with Christ as King. This is now, not some time in the future. At Christ’s second coming all will be laid bare before Him and nothing will be hidden. His Kingdom will have no end.

This is how it is we are children of the light, and so have been taught to walk in the light. Mormons would have us walk in darkness. Why would anyone choose that?

It is the height of ignorance and arrogance to think that the Church from which Holy Scripture came, and who by the power of the Holy Spirit has guarded that same Scripture for two millenium, doesn’t possess the same Spirit to interpret the meaning of its own Scriptures. You really should rethink that one.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

It is the height of ignorance and arrogance to think that the Church from which Holy Scripture came, and who by the power of the Holy Spirit has guarded that same Scripture for two millenium, doesn’t possess the same Spirit to interpret the meaning of its own Scriptures. You really should rethink that one.

ParkerD, you should rethink Mormonism: I keep repeating this, but you never answer. You allege the Catholic Church became “apostate” at the end of the first century when the last Apostle died. The Apostles didn’t give us the New Testament, the Church did! At the end of the FOURTH CENTURY. Your scriptures came from the Church you allege was apostate three centuries earlier! :whacky::whacky::whacky:

 

[catholic-rcia]

Parker, do you keep a diary?
If so who would be the person that could best tell me what is written in it, if I had any questions about what was written?

You or me?

Others that have read it? Could they best explain to me what you wrote?

As it is the New Testament is the Catholic Church’s diary, it is her who can best tell us about it because it has the Holy Spirit to guide her in all things pertaining Jesus, how are lives have been found in Him. When I read the account of the fall in the scriptures I have come to understand it exactly as the Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks about it. I came to this understanding before I became Catholic. I knew about my own fallen nature, my ego, my pride, how I felt special and so forth. When I read what you read in the Catechism it was like “wow” That makes so much sense. That’s it! Thus I am a Christian. All of these things and so much more came to life after my Baptism into Christ and His Church. Confession – Eucharist – The Communion of Saints - Humility – Mary my Mother, Trinity, Apostolic Succession on and on and on and it keeps getting bigger and better while I keep getting smaller and smaller. Jesus getting bigger and bigger in my life. Not that he was not ever bigger. He is as big as it gets

 

[TheExorcist]

ParkerD, you should rethink Mormonism: Your scriptures came from the Church you allege was apostate three centuries earlier!

Man, that’s right. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Even though Im out of Mormonism mentally but still IN Mormonism physically I have to keep those kind of things in the front of my mind so that “Mormon-thinking” doesn’t creep back in

 

[Telstar]

This is for Catholic-RCIA to reiterate:

I read it (speed-read), and if you would like I will quote the many lines that are profoundly opposite to the words and teachings of the Bible. As I had stated earlier and reiterate, the apostasy from Biblical teachings is immediately evident in the words of that catechism, over and over again. But to each their own.

Please, do post as many as you can find. I’m sure everyone here would be most interested in anything you’d like to attempt to refute as untrue. In fact, I insist. If you’re going to post accusations like that on this forum, then I *definitely *want you to back up everything you just said. I really want to hear you try to prove it.

BTW… ‘speed reading’ doesn’t pay any holy writings due diligence or justice. That has to be the one of the most disrespectful and arrogant things I’ve ever heard, even from you. I would have almost preferred that you hadn’t bothered reading it at all.

 

[Telstar]

To the general reader:

Here is D&C 132:54–

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

The words “cleave unto” are familiar to Latter-day Saints because of other scriptures.

Genesis 2:24
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Doctrine and Covenants 42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

“Cleave unto” has the same meaning as those words in Genesis 2:24, and means to be faithful in marriage and draw strength from one another in marriage and become “one”.

“Destroy” is also a word found in the Bible (KJV), and thus is an allusion. An allusion means that the word has more meaning when the alluded scripture is taken into account. (A student of literature understands what is meant by “allusion”, as this is a very common literary term describing a very common literary and teaching device–one which the Savior used repeatedly during His ministry by quoting verses or teachings which we find in the Old Testament.) The alluded scripture in this case is Acts 3:23 (KJV), which does not include the same words as Deuteronomy 18:19.

He even contradicts himself in the D&C.

 

[ParkerD]

Please, do post as many as you can find. I’m sure everyone here would be most interested in anything you’d like to attempt to refute as untrue. …

Telstar,

I doubt that any reader will be all that interested, since most everything has been covered on other threads. Aren’t people allowed to speed read? I had no idea that would come across as “disrespectful”–sorry, I just don’t have much time so I didn’t have the time to read every word.

Here you go:

"It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.”

—It is not a mystery if one reads the Bible. I think the later passage is correct:

"And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.”

“Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart”…

This is not presented in Genesis nor by Paul. It is counter to what is presented in the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. The Genesis account tells Eve’s specific motives, and Adam’s motives also, for partaking the forbidden fruit.

"In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

There is nothing in the Genesis account that indicates that Eve or Adam believed Satan’s temptation about being “like God”.

The word “divinized” is an interesting word for this thread along with the word “destined”–but it becomes a tiring subject.

“They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image”…

The account says Adam said he was afraid “because I was naked”. The fear was not coming from a “distorted image”. We’re supposed to be able to figure out that by eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they lost innocence and became aware about their bodies and so they hid because they didn’t want to be seen unclothed.

 

[zaffiroborant]

they lost innocence and became aware about their bodies and so they hid because they didn’t want to be seen unclothed.

Please exlpain what “became aware about their bodies” means??? Why would they not want to be seen unclothed when God put them in the garden that way? What exactly is wrong with an unclothed human being??

 

[catholic-rcia]

Foot notes are at the bottom of this link?
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p7.htm#410

"It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.” Rom 8:1-28

"And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good.”

***When we sin, tell just one small we place ourselves on the side of satan knowingly or unknowingly. All sin small or large is out of satans jealousy towards Jesus. God permitted His eternal Son to die on a cross in order to save us. The greatest evil act by all of mankind brings forth the greater act of our redemption, “love”: by lying down His life for us. Evil never prevails in the end. Jesus is the victor for us. God will always take an evil act and turn it into good. satan hates this. Satan always looses. ***

“Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart”…

***This where the chord of Grace is severed. You cannot have life separate from God. Jesus reunites us sinners, the lost sheep with His Father by the way of His cross. ***

**Parker: “**This is not presented in Genesis nor by Paul. It is counter to what is presented in the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. The Genesis account tells Eve’s specific motives, and Adam’s motives also, for partaking the forbidden fruit.”

***They severed the Cord of Grace, they had it all and chose not to have it. They wanted Gods wisdom as their own. Thus death entered the world. We all die right? No way around that right? Jesus is the only one that can show us what it is like to never disobey God. He is perfect in this as He is God. He does everything the Father asks Him to do. “perfectly” This is how it could have been for Adam and Eve for all of eternity. One problem….they are not God. Creation leaves God like the prodigal son in search of his own godhood. When he see’s what he has done all he wants to do is return to his father. This is all of us Parker…this is the progression that matters. Those who can see themselves for what they are like the prodigal son and want to return our always welcomed back with open arms. Never wanting to return. The cord of Grace is put back together by the way of Jesus’ Cross. Returning to God and receiving His love is a free gift. It’s out of a love for Jesus that one begins to sin less and less. The biggest sin would be thinking you are special, wise and so forth. To the point of believing you can someday become a god. Only God will ever be God. We will be like Jesus because of Jesus……but there will always be just one Jesus……One God. ***

"In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good.

***When I fall into this trap, like not praying enough, not spending quality time with Jesus, Gossiping about others, telling small lies, not spending the time I need with my wife and children, relying on my own power rather than Gods, going against my own good, forgetting to surrender to Him. Its time to go to confession. ***

Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully “divinized” by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to “be like God”, but “without God, before God, and not in accordance with God”.

***When you remove the Holy Trinity from your life you cannot see this life clearly. It becomes distorted. You forget that God is our Creator / we are His creation. We need to accept this otherwise we bring our Holy God down to our level. We forget to let God be God. We fall into the trap of thinking we are that important. Only God is important. In Jesus we have all that we need as created beings. ***

Parker: “There is nothing in the Genesis account that indicates that Eve or Adam believed Satan’s temptation about being “like God”.”

***I would have to disagree as would all of Christianity. I myself struggle with this one daily so I can relate directly to Adam and Eve. ***

**Parker: **"The word “divinized” is an interesting word for this thread along with the word “destined”–but it becomes a tiring subject.

***Never a tiring subject. There is always someone new who comes along to discuss this with. Two fantastic and glorious human words Divinized ----there by the Grace of God I go……destined to be with God forever ***

“They become afraid of the God of whom they have conceived a distorted image”…

***When we do something we know is wrong satan uses this to separate us from God. He wants us to hide. First he sets us up, then he makes us feel bad. As humans we all do this as well in so many ways to each other. Jesus always says turn to the light, turn to me. ***

Again Parker, the footnotes or the Bible in its entirety.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Matthew 9:9-13
**Parker, can you relate to this reflection of Scripture? Can we see this through the same lenses? **

The Pharisees despised sinners, but Jesus befriended sinners. It was not a question of a few kind words, or a gesture or two, on his part. He associated with sinners. He shared their food and drink. He did not just tolerate them. He welcomed them. In his presence they felt accepted and loved just as they were. It is not surprising then that ,many of them heard his message and changed their lives. Matthew is an example of this.

Jesus’ attitude to sinners was one of kindness and persuasion rather than condemnation and denunciation. He did not wait for sinners to repent before becoming their friend. No, he befriended them in their sinfulness. This is what scandalized the religious authorities: that he associated with sinners and rejoiced in their company while they were still sinners. Just as today some people see compassion for the criminal as a betrayal of the victim, so the Pharisees saw Jesus’ compassion for the sinner as a betrayal of the virtuous.

Jesus defense was very strait forward, he said he went where the need was greatest. In associating with sinners he was not condoning their situation, rather, he was trying to show them a new life. But he could not do this without associating with them and being sympathetic towards them. You never improve people by shunning them. In acting the way he did, Jesus revealed the mercy of God towards sinners.

Jesus did not show a lack of moral principles by sitting at table and consorting with sinners. Rather, his humility was rich and deep enough to make contact, even in them, with that indestructible core of goodness which is found in all, and upon which the future was to be built. He put them in touch with that in them selves. His goodness evoked goodness in them.

It would be easier, safer, and more popular for him to go among the good. But he was not thinking of himself. He was thinking of others, and of the mission given him by his father. He did not come to call the virtuous but rather sinners to repentance.

 

[ParkerD]

Please exlpain what “became aware about their bodies” means??? Why would they not want to be seen unclothed when God put them in the garden that way? What exactly is wrong with an unclothed human being??

Z,

Those questions are left for a reader to figure out from the text, or ask Adam someday.

Genesis 3:10-11 says Adam said “I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.”

The question he was then asked was “Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”

 

[catholic-rcia]

Here is some groundwork Parker. This Priest explains Genesis a lot better than I ever could. Although I do have a great sense of what took place for each one of us and why it is we come to rely on Jesus. We must give God our entire beings through Christ. He not only needs to be front and center, he needs to be our center in order to live. Knowing that there is no other God or gods in order to keep us as low as we need to be in order to reach great heights.
americancatholic.org/Newsletters/CU/ac0507.asp

Genesis teaches the truth. These stories are ultimately about us and the damage we do to ourselves, to others, and to God’s good creation when we forget who we truly are and turn our backs on God, in whose image we have been created. Whenever we play God, the consequences are destructive. Since this is the case, then, God help us! And that, of course, is the rest of the story.”
Michael D. Guinan, a Franciscan priest, is a professor of Old Testament, Semitic languages and biblical spirituality at the Franciscan School of Theology in Berkeley, California.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Dandy
ParkerD, you should rethink Mormonism: Your scriptures came from the Church you allege was apostate three centuries earlier!

Man, that’s right. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Even though Im out of Mormonism mentally but still IN Mormonism physically I have to keep those kind of things in the front of my mind so that “Mormon-thinking” doesn’t creep back in

If you left a book lying around, would your wife be likely to pick it up and read it?

Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham
available at Catholic Answers and at Amazon

It’s online here: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

I know it’s ‘tuff’ having to appear Mormon when your heart and mind are Catholic. There is great merit in offering your yearning and your suffering to God. It’s what Catholics mean by the advice, “offer it up.” Unite your sufferings to Christ’s in prayer. Youve got a heavy cross to carry.

God be with you, brother!

Jim Dandy

 

[RebeccaJ]

Man, that’s right. I have to keep reminding myself of that. Even though Im out of Mormonism mentally but still IN Mormonism physically I have to keep those kind of things in the front of my mind so that “Mormon-thinking” doesn’t creep back in

I called that Mormon-thinking my “cult brain”. You are trained to think a certain way about everything. Borrowing from Yoda – you have to unlearn what you have learned.

It takes time in a circumstance where you are able to remove yourself from Mormon indoctrination. Still immersed in it as you are is extremely difficult. Do you have a rosary? If not I make the inexpensive plastic mission rosaries and will send you one. Just PM me your address.

Be patient and pray for God’s guidance and protection.

 

[Telstar]

Telstar,

I doubt that any reader will be all that interested, since most everything has been covered on other threads. Aren’t people allowed to speed read? I had no idea that would come across as “disrespectful”-sorry, I just don’t have much time so I didn’t have the time to read every word.

I’m going to have to split my response between topics to make sure I can fit things in that I think are important to be answered in greater detail.

First of all, in answer to your ‘speed reading’ and your disparaging of the Catechism:

When you make implications and claims that the Catechism is totally wrong on a Catholic forum, I think you should be ready to back up those statements. We have every right to expect nothing less. You’re an invited guest, but still a guest in our ‘house’, so to speak. If I went to your house and said something flippant like, “Joseph Smith was full of BS.”, I’m sure you’d expect me to back up that statement as well, wouldn’t you? I would have to expect, and oblige, any and all requests to do so out of respect to the owner of ‘the house’.

As far as ‘speed reading’ goes, I have to ask, is that how you always read scripture, as well? That would certainly explain your consistent lack of understanding it. I learned many years ago that people who ‘speed read’ miss a whole lot more of the true meaning of what they read than they think they do. That’s why they misinterpret the written word so frequently.

I saw evidence of this problem, over and over again, from one particular person of some renown that boasts about, and prides himself in, reading so many different books, so quickly. But, he didn’t like it very much when people pointed out his misinterpretations of what was actually posted on his own forum, either. He belittled people for what he* believed* they had written, and accused them of saying things that they never said, at all. I find it even more ironic that he’s also LDS. That certainly explains a lot to me.

 

[ParkerD]

…
As far as ‘speed reading’ goes, I have to ask, is that how you always read scripture, as well?..

No, except some of Leviticus.

I have since gone ahead and read the entire catechism. I didn’t disparage it, by the way. I remarked that I saw differences between its teachings and the teachings of the Bible. I had been asked to read it, and had been asked to respond about it specifically, so I did and then you asked for more details.

I responded, as you asked me to do, by listing several of the differences.

 

[ParkerD]

Here is some groundwork Parker. …
Genesis teaches the truth…

What I see being totally bypassed is Genesis 3:6, and instead the assumption that Genesis 3:5 contains not only the serpent’s words of temptation, but also the thoughts of Adam and Eve as though he were controlling their thoughts. (The serpent wasn’t controlling their thoughts.)

When Satan tempts anyone, it does not mean they have listened and obeyed the temptation. It does not mean the tempter has successfully clouded their thoughts, or pushed them in a direction. It does mean he has tried, and will continue to try, and will deceive in whatever way he comes up with, and no doubt it will be deceptive. So I think we agree that he is a deceiver, and that he tempts, and that his temptations oppose God’s plan for humankind.

It just becomes a question of
“why skip over Genesis 3:6 and assume Eve didn’t really have those motives?”

 

[TheExorcist]

If you left a book lying around, would your wife be likely to pick it up and read it?

Where We Got the Bible by Henry Graham
available at Catholic Answers and at Amazon

It’s online here: catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

I know it’s ‘tuff’ having to appear Mormon when your heart and mind are Catholic. There is great merit in offering your yearning and your suffering to God. It’s what Catholics mean by the advice, “offer it up.” Unite your sufferings to Christ’s in prayer. Youve got a heavy cross to carry.

God be with you, brother!

Jim Dandy

I’ve been reading Pope Benedict’s Jesus of Nazareth (part 1) and also The Way by Father Escriba. The Graham book is one I’ve been meaning to get for a while. It’s been recommended both by Father Pacwa and Patrick Madrid. I listen to their Open Line programs every week by podcast. Thanks for your encouraging words, they do more good than you can ever know.

Blessings,

Charles